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Anyone see Tonon's latest fight in onefc and want to discuss his back control techniques?
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Dec 8, 2020 19:27
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CommonShore posted:Anyone see Tonon's latest fight in onefc and want to discuss his back control techniques? Matshima did very well in defending himself from getting submitted. I think there was a lot of glove holding going on. Garry also performed the Dagestani Handcuff iirc, the first time I think he's done it. the full fight is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMcuP6m0KJM
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Dec 8, 2020 21:58
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SuppressdPuberty93 posted:Matshima did very well in defending himself from getting submitted. I think there was a lot of glove holding going on. Garry also performed the Dagestani Handcuff iirc, the first time I think he's done it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOHOCz7Imi4 the one you've linked is geoblocked for me but this one works. What really impressed me was round 2 - there's the series where he switches over to that cross-body overhook once he has trapped the arm. I've been watching how he maintains back control through that. There are two occasions where he's almost in mount or half guard, but with that contact point on the back of the neck via the overhook, but then he gets back to the proper back position as if he had never actually left it. I think there's some kind of principle of back control at play in how he holds on to that, and I'm trying to put my finger on what it is. Part of it is that with the overhook and (what I'll call) semi-crucifix trapped arm that he's able to maintain a diagonal control that keeps Matsushima from turning into him, but there's something else... On top of that, there was a sequence where he raked the face while switching his head that I saw the first time Iw atched it but I haven't been able to find it again.
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Dec 8, 2020 23:18
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SuppressdPuberty93 posted:Matshima did very well in defending himself from getting submitted. I think there was a lot of glove holding going on. Garry also performed the Dagestani Handcuff iirc, the first time I think he's done it. drat. I need to watch more of his fights. Gary is on another level with his grappling.
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Dec 9, 2020 01:25
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Very into Matsushima exhibiting the ultimate grappling submission defense, "being a strong wrestleguy"
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Dec 9, 2020 01:45
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CommonShore posted:Anyone see Tonon's latest fight in onefc and want to discuss his back control techniques? I did but I was too perplexed by the mullet to focus.
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Dec 9, 2020 01:49
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Sorry the timestamps for the sequence I'm interetsed in: Second round, he traps the arm at 2:50, and starts really working what I'm calling the underhook at 2:25, and from 2:00 to about 1:50 is the sequence that made me perk up. There's a moment there where he 100% does not at all look like he has back control even in the slightest, but then when they turn over he is just in proper back again. It's like he had it but it didn't look like he had it. Again, I can follow what happened, but I'm trying to suss out the principle of how having the head stuffed with that underhook resulted in him never losing control despite their bodies separating quite far from "back control".
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Dec 9, 2020 03:09
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CommonShore posted:Sorry the timestamps for the sequence I'm interetsed in: I think it’s a combination of where he puts his weight and a couple of submission threats. At 2:50 he’s kind of got diagonal control: His head stays tight on one shoulder and doesn’t let uke’s head touch the ground, and his bottom leg is controlling the opposite hip a little bit. He’s taken the top foot off the hip to try and slide uke’s arm behind his own back, and uke is struggling to keep the arm in front of his body, I think that’s where the control comes from. If Tonon has the arm trapped and slides his foot down uke’s back, it’ll become a 2 vs 1 arm fight for the RNC. What’s interesting at 2:25 is that Tonon can’t raise his left arm so he brings his right arm over the top to lever his left arm up to where he wants it. I’m not totally sure what his positioning is about here, but Tonon has hit some famously-good guillotines and is known to set it up from this kind of position. His right arm would grab behind the knee of his right leg (going in front of uke’s chest/face) and that would give uke the illusion that he can escape in that direction. But it’s bait, the right arm can spring into a deep guillotine if he takes it. While this is happening, Tonon’s right leg is getting heavy and pinching inwards. He’s got a path to mount, and putting all his weight on the top leg means that the bottom leg has enough space to move out from under the body if he wants to. I don’t totally get what’s happening between 2:00 and 1:50 - it looks like there’s a mount opportunity but he gets swept off, but his weird arm position has worked like an underhook, keeping uke’s arm separated from his body. As he rolls through to a chair sit position, he can punch his arm through (because he kept the space open) with a more traditional underhook, which might become an armbar or a kimura or a path back to the RNC. I’ve watched tons of Tonon’s stuff, he tends to do very fundamental stuff in extremely weird ways, like he follows the same principles as everyone else but just does unpredictable variations of everything. I think his back control here is a combination of diagonal (far hip/near shoulder) control and fear of submissions. edit: Here’s an old video where Tonon shows the kind of guillotine i’m talking about https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Sc9Q4c5fKIw 02-6611-0142-1 fucked around with this message at 04:37 on Dec 9, 2020 |
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Dec 9, 2020 04:35
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hmm it's that 2:00 to 1:50 section that has me most intrigued. Thanks overall though. I like that guillotine and I see how it fits in.
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Dec 9, 2020 04:51
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It's basically just a crucifix against turtle, probably more familiar to people who do sambo/judo since it's a way to work pins against opponents defending after a throw.
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Dec 9, 2020 05:58
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drat I've tried that guillotine off back escape but didn't stick with it as a drill
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Dec 9, 2020 22:02
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Mechafunkzilla posted:It's basically just a crucifix against turtle, probably more familiar to people who do sambo/judo since it's a way to work pins against opponents defending after a throw. If its not a clean ippon it almost always transitions into a lapel choke/bow and arrow from turtle as in judo that opponent doesnt want to stay anywhere in a position where they would be put on their back. Control of the opposite arm isnt as essential.
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Dec 9, 2020 23:59
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Tacos Al Pastor posted:If its not a clean ippon it almost always transitions into a lapel choke/bow and arrow from turtle as in judo that opponent doesnt want to stay anywhere in a position where they would be put on their back. Control of the opposite arm isnt as essential. okay but I'm talking about the cool kind of judo where people actually use a variety of moves
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Dec 10, 2020 00:35
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Sometimes when I am triangling someone from guard they gable grip their hands on my belly and make strong arms and it makes it very hard to cut an angle and finish the choke. How do I get around this?
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Dec 10, 2020 03:44
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SHOAH NUFF posted:Sometimes when I am triangling someone from guard they gable grip their hands on my belly and make strong arms and it makes it very hard to cut an angle and finish the choke. How do I get around this? Handfight to break their frame?
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Dec 10, 2020 04:00
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Legit Businessman fucked around with this message at 02:12 on Sep 10, 2022 |
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Dec 10, 2020 04:01
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Drewjitsu posted:I think you can do what Joe Doerksen told me to do, and bridge your hips, which flattens your body out, and allows you to arm drag their arm that is in the triangle. Then stop bridging and go back to cutting the angle/crunching them now that that resistance is gone. I feel like bridging is the secret sauce for like 70% of "how do I finish triangle" issues
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Dec 10, 2020 04:07
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This might be very different with higher belts trying to resist the triangle but I always like the option of sweeping my opponent. I have plenty of room then base my arms, level my hips parallel to the ground, and pinch my knees together for the finish. It's hard to image the sweep with uke's arm frame resistance. It's been a while.
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Dec 10, 2020 04:34
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I feel like the answer is usually to pull his hips into you and break his posture, but since he’s framing on you get your hands behind his from the outside then do a wax-off motion at the same time as the hip pull. Hold his head once ge goes down to keep his posture broken.
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Dec 10, 2020 23:19
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Also to starkebn or anybody else in Brisbane:  We put this on Facebook last night and it's already about 25% of the way to sold out. I bought an extra ticket to both days by accident so hit me up.
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Dec 10, 2020 23:26
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02-6611-0142-1 posted:Also to starkebn or anybody else in Brisbane: Thanks man, I'll think about it
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Dec 10, 2020 23:44
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02-6611-0142-1 posted:Also to starkebn or anybody else in Brisbane: I've been to a Lachlan (and Olivia) seminar before Covid and it was awesome. Seminar was packed and he spent a lot of time with each student. Rolled with anyone who wanted to roll. Highly recommended if you get a chance.
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Dec 11, 2020 04:01
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Mechafunkzilla posted:okay but I'm talking about the cool kind of judo where people actually use a variety of moves Right gotcha, a lot of takedowns can lead to a lot of different positions for BJJ.
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Dec 11, 2020 06:50
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Good arm triangle video from Lord Giles https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqYw8uqkBgQ
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Dec 14, 2020 03:11
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SuppressdPuberty93 posted:Good arm triangle video from Lord Giles i don't know what it is or why but i get so much more out of 7 minutes of giles than 30 minutes of danaher, hall, or basically anyone else
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Dec 14, 2020 08:24
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Marching Powder posted:i don't know what it is or why but i get so much more out of 7 minutes of giles than 30 minutes of danaher, hall, or basically anyone else With Danaher I feel that a good amount of what he teaches would be better taught with him being right there helping you out with certain positions. Hes a master of details. Take Hantai Sankaku for example (opposite side triangle), I have tried to get my body into that position, with very little success.
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Dec 14, 2020 19:10
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SuppressdPuberty93 posted:Good arm triangle video from Lord Giles He doesn't address it but I love the use of a Gable grip here. I always found the traditional arm triangle finish difficult to finagle, and this ignores that set up nearly completely in favor of pure pressure and just keeping your body close to your opponent.
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Dec 14, 2020 21:16
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I like how Danaher walks through little details that I would have never thought about, but I tend to get more broad-strokes info from a Giles vid. Now on this one the question I have is what stops uke from bridging him up and to the left when he does that slide through the tripod to the mat just before dismounting. That's a pretty big hole in his base.
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Dec 14, 2020 22:06
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I imagine if you bridged him over you’d end up in closed guard and the choke would get even tighter.
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Dec 14, 2020 23:15
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I'd watch danaher if he didn't physically repulse me
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Dec 15, 2020 01:20
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02-6611-0142-1 posted:I imagine if you bridged him over you’d end up in closed guard and the choke would get even tighter. You think so? I'd much rather be fighting an arm triangle from (me on) the top than from underneath. Plus it opens up space to get the arm out as you go over.
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Dec 15, 2020 01:25
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Gordon has a video out there somewhere where he shows how to setup and finish the head and arm triangle. The detail is the same as the regular triangle involving the head: eliminating the gap. That seems to be the single biggest reason I have seen for people not finishing. Once that problem is addressed, the sub is relatively straight forward.
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Dec 15, 2020 02:05
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actually the reason gordon isn't able to finish this sub is because he leaves a gap in his hate speech where jiujitsu is allowed to keep conversation sanitised and palatable 
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Dec 15, 2020 02:19
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CommonShore posted:You think so? I'd much rather be fighting an arm triangle from (me on) the top than from underneath. Plus it opens up space to get the arm out as you go over. Personally I’m more afraid of being arm triangled when I’m on top, I got murdered that way in a competition once. If you leave a question on one of his videos he’ll probably answer, he’s more likely to respond on reddit rather than youtube.
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Dec 15, 2020 03:45
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02-6611-0142-1 posted:Personally I’m more afraid of being arm triangled when I’m on top, I got murdered that way in a competition once. or IG.
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Dec 15, 2020 06:54
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Tacos Al Pastor posted:Gordon has a video out there somewhere where he shows how to setup and finish the head and arm triangle. The detail is the same as the regular triangle involving the head: eliminating the gap. That seems to be the single biggest reason I have seen for people not finishing. Once that problem is addressed, the sub is relatively straight forward. Is it the "its sorta a jerking off motion" explanation he did?
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Dec 15, 2020 08:00
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02-6611-0142-1 posted:Personally I’m more afraid of being arm triangled when I’m on top, I got murdered that way in a competition once. Yeah when I'm on top I feel like my opponent loses the benefit of gravity and the blocking effect of the mat for me trying to get my arm out. Reddit? Youtube comments? Ugh...
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Dec 15, 2020 15:42
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Mekchu posted:Is it the "its sorta a jerking off motion" explanation he did? Thats the one 
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Dec 15, 2020 17:25
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SHOAH NUFF posted:I'm watching The Sopranos for the 30th time, and just noticed that in Season 2 Episode 6 The Happy Wanderer, there's a scene where Ritchie Aprile grabs Davey Scatino by the collar and Tony steps in and smoothly pummels an underhook to get control of Ritchie, pretty cool. Nice overhook Tone! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eviIklReqYE&t=89s
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Dec 18, 2020 20:19
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rolled with lachlan giles today and sadly, unbelievably, i did not tap him
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Jan 2, 2021 09:28
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