|
it's the Guerrero's edit: or the Alvarado's Lid fucked around with this message at 16:25 on Jan 1, 2021 |
#
?
Jan 1, 2021 16:23
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 27, 2024 17:35 |
|
|
Cavauro posted:what is the longest family lineage for wrestlers? in the ring doing wrestling. not farting into a microphone OR anything else Myzteziz Jr and Bandido are the sons of Apóstol Jr., who is the son of Tony Arellano, who was the son of El Húngaro. I don't have good information on when El Húngaro was wrestling, but that's four generations.
|
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2021 16:24
|
|
|
Punch McLightning posted:Hey, remember how there were/are conspiracy theories because someone edited Benoit’s wiki page as a “joke” to say it was a murder-suicide earlier than anyone would have known, and they somehow did so with a Stamford, CT IP? Several years ago i read way too many things about the benoit incident and my recollection is the wikipedia thing was actually just a really really odd coincidence but yeah its weird AF
|
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2021 16:33
|
|
|
It was just a completely bizarre coincidence. I certainly don't believe any of the nutjob ideas about Benoit being innocent.
|
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2021 16:35
|
|
|
Oh yeah it's just one of the weird wrinkles in an already crazy story. I find the whole thing tragically fascinating.
|
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2021 16:45
|
|
|
Isn't the Rock's daughter training to be a wrestler? That's four generations right there.
|
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2021 16:57
|
|
|
Monkeycheese posted:I don't recall who but at least some guys said when they heard the family was dead they immediately thought Chris might be responsible. Even if thats just weird people being morbid AF as opposed to the likely scenario of "people who knew Chris was abusive/nuts and going crazier" add that to whatever rumor mill was going and yeah, not hard to think even if it wasn't confirmed to talent yet, some guys were suspicious. I know in one of Jericho's books, he claimed that the moment he heard the news, he knew Chris killed them all. The other story I know is from Chris Masters, who described how the roster had a special meeting to be told about the Benoits' deaths. Everyone was beside themselves with grief, but there was a weird feeling in the air where a lot of people had their suspicions, but knew it would be more tactful to keep their mouths shut.
|
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2021 19:11
|
|
|
davidbix posted:It's been a while since I've refreshed my memory about this, but IIRC, the smoking gun that they knew it was a murder-suicide committed by Chris before Raw went on the air was that the 911 call log for his mom's panic attack had those details before it was known publicly. (Someone in WWE, I think Carl DeMarco, had sent local reporter Scott Zerr, a friend of Chris's who was starting work on a memoir with him, to tell his parents.) Someone in the company—quite possibly DeMarco as well—called Dave Meltzer not long after the initial news broke and said that's what he was hearing, but both immediately dismissed it. Here's the reason: They had nothing else to air and they wanted to make sure they aired something because Vince wants to make every dollar he possibly can.
|
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2021 19:20
|
|
|
Chris Benoit and his family were murdered because they ignored the donation pop-ups on Wikipedia.
|
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2021 20:05
|
|
|
Did they just cancel the Raw show that was supposed to take place?
|
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2021 20:05
|
|
|
Hedgehog Pie posted:Did they just cancel the Raw show that was supposed to take place? they canceled the live attendance portion but did a clip show Best Of Benoit tribute show with wrestlers airing their memories and thoughts intercut throughout
|
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2021 20:10
|
|
|
JOHN CENA posted:they canceled the live attendance portion but did a clip show Best Of Benoit tribute show with wrestlers airing their memories and thoughts intercut throughout Which if you think about it, tells you that even if they weren't TOLD it was a murder/suicide, they were pretty sure that someone in the Benoit family killed someone in the Benoit family. When Owen died, the next raw was a live tribute show with audience, storylines put aside and a tribute card put together, etc. Same with Eddie. Benoit? No, they cancelled the live show and basically replayed the Benoit DVD set with commercials. I don't actually know when the suspicions of foul play were announced publicly, but I know I didn't see any public acknowledgement of foul play until about 30 seconds after Raw went off the air on the east coast. I do remember the empty arena being odd, no 10-bell, no wrestlers gathered on the ramp. And then I heard Regal's words, and it just clicked. But it's been so long ago that my brain may have pieced this poo poo together differently from what happened, IDK
|
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2021 20:54
|
|
|
Can you imagine if they did it in front of a live crowd when the news of what had actually had happened became known?
|
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2021 20:58
|
|
|
Is wrestling super popular in American Samoa or is it pretty much just the Anoa'i Family having a gigantic family interest?
|
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2021 21:46
|
|
|
IronCladBurrito posted:Which if you think about it, tells you that even if they weren't TOLD it was a murder/suicide, they were pretty sure that someone in the Benoit family killed someone in the Benoit family. I had forgotten about this, but this is exactly when and how I first heard that it was a confirmed murder/suicide. The whole episode of RAW felt weird to me because the circumstances were so bizarre and that coming out right after the show completely sunk me.
|
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2021 21:54
|
|
|
Punch McLightning posted:Hey, remember how there were/are conspiracy theories because someone edited Benoit’s wiki page as a “joke” to say it was a murder-suicide earlier than anyone would have known, and they somehow did so with a Stamford, CT IP? Wasn't the guy who did that a goon? Or am I off base? For some reason, it sticks in my head that the guy was a goon.
|
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2021 23:32
|
|
|
yeah it was huikamatt
|
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2021 23:40
|
|
|
JOHN CENA posted:yeah it was huikamatt Holy poo poo, seriously?
|
|
#
?
Jan 1, 2021 23:44
|
|
|
MassRafTer posted:Here's the reason: IronCladBurrito posted:Which if you think about it, tells you that even if they weren't TOLD it was a murder/suicide, they were pretty sure that someone in the Benoit family killed someone in the Benoit family. Whether you go with the more forgiving explanation of the decision to use the existing tribute show format for "the death of Mr. McMahon" (that they didn't think it through and just went with what seemed like the natural choice) or the cynical one (that they were conscious of the fact that this implied that the past tributes and the emotions contained therein were works), they *had* to pivot to a different tribute show format if someone on the roster died again, especially if it was while the death of Mr. McMahon storyline was going. As for reports of foul play, let's see if I can refresh my memory. *checks* Less clear when it was reported/stated that they were investigating it as a homicide, but it looks like the Atlanta Journal-Constitution reported it was a murder-suicide at about 10:30 p.m. ET. Rich Tate (who I believe worked in law enforcement in Georgia by day) reported (in a WrestlingClassics post of all places) this at about that time: There is no official statement from the Fayette County Sheriff's Department on the case, with the exception that they are indeed investigating it as a murder-homicide. Initial autopsy results are expected Tuesday. An unnamed source with involvement in the case has revealed that it is being speculated that Chris Benoit murdered his wife sometime Saturday, before taking his son's life sometime Sunday, and finally his own. Benoit's body was found in a weight room, his wife's was in the living room, and their son was found in his bedroom, according to the source. The post turned out to be accurate, at least relative to what the police believed about the timeline at that moment, which was broadly accurate, anyway. It looks like mainstream outlets started reporting that Chris killed them a few minutes before 11 p.m. ET. IIRC, WWE.com confirmed it themselves right after Raw went off the air.
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2021 03:14
|
|
|
davidbix posted:Yeah, you're forgetting a big part of why they didn't do the Owen/911/Eddy style tribute show: They had just shot the death of Mr. McMahon angle and done "tribute shows" that followed the exact format of the actual tributes shows, complete with the same photo studio backdrop for the testimonial videos. Almost. What I ACTUALLY forgot was that he had 2 other wrestling shows and this angle would have spanned across all the brands, and I only watched Raw at the time. But yeah, that would have totally wrecked the tribute show format. Enlightening, though, and thank you for the reminder. It does take the wind out of my conspiracy sails, though Regal's comments still tell me they knew. Side question: Has WWE even done a tribute show to a deceased roster member since? Nothing is coming to mind for me, though they do throw up the graphics at the start of the show for a lot of them.
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2021 04:07
|
|
|
I seem to recall Regal saying he got a text from Benoit to the effect of "I love you" and was like, this is not the guy I've known for ten years, something is horribly wrong
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2021 04:12
|
|
|
IronCladBurrito posted:Almost. What I ACTUALLY forgot was that he had 2 other wrestling shows and this angle would have spanned across all the brands, and I only watched Raw at the time. But yeah, that would have totally wrecked the tribute show format. DeathChicken posted:I seem to recall Regal saying he got a text from Benoit to the effect of "I love you" and was like, this is not the guy I've known for ten years, something is horribly wrong And no, there haven't been any roster deaths since then...right? After having...what, 4 in just over 8 years, 3 of which were main roster guys who got tribute shows?
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2021 05:17
|
|
|
davidbix posted:The story with Regal was that although he knew Chris was increasingly losing his mind, he did his tribute video the way he did because immediately beforehand, JBL went up to him and said "...you don't think he killed the boy, do you?" i was thinking Cade but he was released shortly before his death.
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2021 05:33
|
|
|
god drat hulkamatt owns
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2021 06:28
|
|
|
I checked back in Irv Muchnick's book on Google Books and realized that I remembered some of the details wrong about the proof that WWE knew: https://www.google.com/books/edition/Chris_Nancy/3CBFFkYrhCMC?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PT64&printsec=frontcover Michael Benoit told Irv that Scott Zerr told him that WWE/Carl DeMarco told him that Chris killed Nancy and Daniel before taking his own life. (Zerr would deny this, apparently.) This makes sense, though, because Dave Meltzer DID confirm to Irv that DeMarco was who had first told him that was the case before Raw went on the air. The timeline appears to be: 5:30 p.m. ET: A WWE exec tells DeMarco. 6:05 p.m. ET: DeMarco tells Meltzer. 6:45 p.m. ET: Zerr tells the Benoits. The 911 records aren't explicit about who knew what, though. Also, I remembered that I put together this timeline in 2009 when someone was arguing with me about it on another forum, and it's worth sharing because there's some forgotten stuff in there. It looks like I remembered the MSNBC thing wrong, though; it was that the DA told the reporter (Kathy Jefcoats of the Atlanta Journal-Constitution) within an hour or so of the news breaking that it was a murder-suicide, but she doesn't say the DA said Chris did it at that time: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGLpBr4Oo5M&t=270s (Also, I presume she and the DA agreed to keep that private for a few hours for various reasons, since it was a few hours before the AJC broke that story.) Anyway, please forgive the typos (also, I'm not sure why I forgot to mention that DeMarco was also Meltzer's source): 5:30 PM ET: WWE Canada President Carl DeMarco calls Benoit's parents. His mother, Margaret home alone, answers. DeMarco says “I considered Chris one of my best friends…” only to get a response of “Why are you telling me this?” before realizing they hadn't been notified and saying he'd call back. DeMarco calls the detective in charge of the notifications, who called Benoit's mother. DeMarco then called Scott Zerr, an Edmonton report of friend of Chris who was helping with his autobiography, and told him to go to the parents' house and lend his support. Margaret calls her husband/Chris's father Michael and tells him to come home. Around 6:00 PM ET: The deaths are reported on WWE.com. 6:05 PM ET: Dave Meltzer receives a call from a WWE source who tells him that Chris was the killer. 6:36 PM ET: Constable Rob Morris of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police was dispatched to the Benoit home. He assisted Emergency Medical Services in “a complaint of a distraught female [who] was just informed that her son, who lives in the United States, had passed away.” His report documents that he “called Detective TURNER to confirm details. Detective TURNER had already spoken with Chris’s Mother, Margaret BENOIT, and informed her of Chris’s passing. The incident was being investigated as an alleged murder-suicide.” 6:45 PM ET: Michael gets home. Zerr meets him in the driveway and tells him he was told by WWE that Chris killed Nancy and Daniel before killing himself. Between 6:00 and 7:00 PM ET: Police tell a local reporter that Chris was the killer. The reporter mentioned this the next day on MSNBC. Presumably some point before 8:00 PM ET: JBL asked Regal if he thought Chris had anything to do with killing Daniel right before Regal taped his tribute, rattling Regal (who knew that Chris had been losing it to some degree) enough to make sure he didn't praise Chris as a person. Chavo Guerrero, who (along with Scott Armstrong) got the text messages from Chris, tapes a tribute that goes overboard in talking about how he trusted his kids with Chris and makes it clear he knew what happened. 8:00 PM ET: Raw goes on the air on the East Coast. 10:00 PM ET: The Atlanta Journal Constitution reports that it's a murder-suicide. 10:30 PM ET: Rich Tate reports that Chris was the killer. 11:00 PM ET: WAGA TV reports that Chris was the killer as Raw goes on the air on the West Coast. Around 12:00 AM ET: WWE.com reported that Chris was the killer.
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2021 08:15
|
|
|
Didn't Chavo also get a voice mail?
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2021 08:17
|
|
|
I remember reading that Chavo and Regal (I think?) got a text from Benoit about the dogs in the pool area.
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2021 09:31
|
|
|
MassRafTer posted:Didn't Chavo also get a voice mail? There were lots of rumors at the time about there being more texts with information about life insurance and bank accounts, but they never turned up.
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2021 09:49
|
|
|
I'm trying to get the timeline correct here, but did Emi Sakuara create the modern joshi wrestling template by founding Ice Ribbon? I know Rossy was trying something similar with JDStar but Wikipedia makes it sound like a complete failure and Stardom starts a few years after Ice Ribbon.
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2021 12:00
|
|
|
Rossy probably started it with Arsion
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2021 14:23
|
|
|
What did Chavo say in his testimonial that was so over the top? I've never had a reason to go back and find it, but it weirds me or that he would know what happened and not take the Regal route.
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2021 14:52
|
|
|
fez_machine posted:I know Rossy was trying something similar with JDStar but Wikipedia makes it sound like a complete failure and Stardom starts a few years after Ice Ribbon. I've seen that article but I do wonder about who exactly wrote it: its not exactly written in an impartial manner, no sources are listed and it comes across as something that someone opposed to their whole general concept would have written. I'm admittedly not an expert on this period but the idea that JDStar was a unique failure or that veterans refused to work with them doesn't really hold up based on just looking at the people working those shows. You'll see big names showing up on their shows - not on every show but on the bigger ones certainly - and while there might have been some scepticism about how the promotion was recruiting people that sort of idol stuff is a thing in Joshi going right back to its origins so the idea that these veterans would be offended at the idea of this promotion trying to create mainstream stars through wrestling is silly. Rossy was not the most popular person so him being there is probably a much bigger factor in some veterans not wanting to work the promotion as anything else. As Bushi says Arsion was the same sort of thing and a lot of those veterans worked it: it looked like they were all happy to work Ice Ribbon which if anything had an even less traditional way of recruiting talent (with the those elementary school wrestlers thing) and you can say the same about a lot of more recent promotions. JD Star did produce Fuka and she was one of the people that is integral in the creation of Stardom (she decided to start training Yuzuki Aikawa in wrestling; Rossy felt that she'd be a good person to build a whole new promotion around and so they formed Stardom and brought Nanae Takahashi in to be the veteran wrestler leading the thing) and so they are significant in that way. Besides its not like anyone was doing well in the mid 2000s: Arsion died in 2003 and AtoZ, its successor, in 2006, AJW died in 2004; GAEA in 2005; JWP was a shadow of its former self and scraped through the period until 2017; NEO lasted until 2010: there's a whole litany of Joshi promotions and projects that start in this period and last like a year before closing because no one was making money. Sure JD Star also died but when everyone else in its probably not that fair to suggest that its anything they did in particular that caused that: the whole scene was near death. Ice Ribbon, Sendai Girls and WAVE were the exceptions really: they managed to survive through some really rough early days to get to the period where things appear to be looking up and even then WAVE and Sendai Girls aren't exactly on the firmest of grounds.
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2021 15:22
|
|
|
Ganso Bomb posted:What did Chavo say in his testimonial that was so over the top? I've never had a reason to go back and find it, but it weirds me or that he would know what happened and not take the Regal route. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sj4ffqmU0EU
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2021 17:28
|
|
|
Ganso Bomb posted:What did Chavo say in his testimonial that was so over the top? I've never had a reason to go back and find it, but it weirds me or that he would know what happened and not take the Regal route.
|
|
#
?
Jan 3, 2021 01:22
|
|
|
Currently enjoying Survivor Series 1996 with a beer. Is there a deeper reason for the smarky crowd cheering Sid and booing Shawn? They seemed “normal” for Bret v Austin before.
|
|
#
?
Jan 3, 2021 02:55
|
|
|
Because Sid ruled.
|
|
#
?
Jan 3, 2021 03:03
|
|
|
Oh he’s absolutely awesome. But by 1996 standards, he’s the heel and Shawn is the race. They push that “bizarro land” poo poo on commentary these days but was that really a thing 25 years ago?
|
|
#
?
Jan 3, 2021 03:06
|
|
|
britishbornandbread posted:Oh he’s absolutely awesome. But by 1996 standards, he’s the heel and Shawn is the race. They push that “bizarro land” poo poo on commentary these days but was that really a thing 25 years ago? 'Bizarro Land' is often older fans just wanting what they liked as kids. As kids they liked large men, so they favored Sid over Shawn. This is even right down to Shawn being terrible at drawing in men, but strong with women and children...the exact same thing older fans would use as proof of how great their side was compared to inferior Cena and later Reigns fans.
|
|
#
?
Jan 3, 2021 03:12
|
|
|
The crowd was definitely chanting Sid when he turned on Shawn after Mania 11
|
|
#
?
Jan 3, 2021 03:46
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 27, 2024 17:35 |
|
|
britishbornandbread posted:Oh he’s absolutely awesome. But by 1996 standards, he’s the heel and Shawn is the race. They push that “bizarro land” poo poo on commentary these days but was that really a thing 25 years ago? It's always happened in Wrestling, just for the WWE they'd always edit TV to make sure the face was cheered so it's not as noticeable on TV. On PPV though you can't edit so it makes it through See the reaction at the end of Royal Rumble 92 when Flair gets a face pop for winning and the crowd 100% sides with Sid even though the angle was set up for Hogan to get cheered
|
|
#
?
Jan 3, 2021 03:51
|
|
