|
Mendrian posted:I mean I suppose we could see if there are such a thing as consequences for actions taken while president post hoc facto but the answer is probably 'nah'. If you're pressing charges when he's out of office then it's not impeachment  
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2021 19:14
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 11, 2024 17:40 |
|
|
Medullah posted:Does he have any international properties other than the Scottish golf course? It would be a logical place for a "vacation". He would leave for Russia and become "President-In-Exile" after the 20th. I have no doubt he's considering that if the self pardon doesn't work.
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2021 19:14
|
|
|
Angry_Ed posted:Not sure why he'd want to go to Scotland (if this story is even true, the source isn't exactly...vetted?) considering they hate him. Ancestral homeland of golf
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2021 19:15
|
|
|
I know that's where his golf course is, I'm just saying Scotland wouldn't exactly feel obligated to treat him with kid gloves now that he's an ex-president. Granted my dream of a bunch of scottish killdozers flattening his country club is not going to happen anyway.
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2021 19:16
|
|
|
Golf in the shadow of a hideous pile of wind turbines, so it barely even counts as golf but may count as a crime against humanity
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2021 19:16
|
|
|
Mendrian posted:Or possibly worse, "the Democracts nuked the economy for a virus that turned out to be NOTHING". Yeah this is the actual best-case scenario lol, a functioning government is largely invisible and a successful pandemic response would definitionally mean we don't get the millions of horror stories. I've told this anecdote before of a single change that would unironically have saved lives and that was also pretty much invisible to the general population. A dear friend of mine finished her doctorate a couple years ago. Working for the CDC was high on her list of possible employment and they really, really wanted her after she'd worked with them during her schooling. Unfortunately, like every other non-evil agency in the government and half the evil ones, this was smack dab in the middle of Trump's idiotic hiring freeze. Nobody knew when (or if!) it was going to end, middle managers were being pushed to find ways to downsize despite it thankfully being difficult to fire federal employees, and a lot of her contacts were suffering from low morale due to all the garbage the Trump administration was doing to their agency, so instead she wound up professoring at a prestigious university. Good for her, it's working out well personally. Her medical sociology work with the CDC that made them so excited about hopefully hiring her after her doctorate was on cultural factors reducing compliance with CDC recommendations and actions, and how to sensitively and effectively work around those in large part through better communication. Her work had the actual, tangible benefit of reducing deaths by improving voluntary compliance on the prevention, detection, tracking, and treatment of a contagious deadly respiratory illness. 
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2021 19:16
|
|
|
Cpt_Obvious posted:I don't think the chuds would have listened to Hillary Clinton. Perhaps you know some chuds that are big Clinton fans? But looking back at the Obama and Bill Clinton eras, asking politely for chuds to not be idiots has never worked. I don't think they would have listened to her at all. I know you didn't quote me but I swear to god I maintain that a hypothetical Clinton or Obama could ave gotten the vast majority of CHUD/MAGA morons to wear masks simply by telling them not to do that and that it's dangerous. I'm barely kidding. I can easily see a reverse scenario with Covid where Q and CHUD radio works hard to convince us that the commie socialists imported a bio weapon from China that kills people (and by people I mean true american white christian patriots) but they're telling us not to take precautions or wear masks and we have nothing to worry about! Why are the DemonRats forcing us to go to work during a virus outbreak? This is what They Don't Want You to Know! The Soros manufactured China Virus that's designed to kill conservatives! I say we all mask up and refuse to work, not giving in until the government compensates us! Who's with me? gently caress, you'd see more rebel flag/NASCAR masks and rednecks getting up in your poo poo about not wearing PPE than you could shake a loving stick at. They'd make it a point of pride to be masked and gloved at all times if Hillary said masks weren't needed. Then try telling them the vaccine isn't ready yet and hasn't undergone enough testing and watch them kill each other at Walgreens trying to get at it because Hillary says it's not safe to administer for another 2 weeks.
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2021 19:17
|
|
|
The Y2K crisis pretty well shows if you work hard to prevent a catastrophe and succeed people will think it wasn't a thing.
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2021 19:18
|
|
|
Pick posted:The Y2K crisis pretty well shows if you work hard to prevent a catastrophe and succeed people will think it wasn't a thing. My dad worked on that, I even watched him do some work on it, and I still don't think it was a thing.
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2021 19:18
|
|
|
yronic heroism posted:Trump would have absolutely unleashed nukes in a 9/12 world because that’s what all the chuds were calling for. If you don’t know that you probably don’t know many chuds. Kalit posted:That's fair. But him going with the most destructive/unstable option with regards to Soleimani is a reason to think Trump would have slapped that end world button. This is in specific response to you saying "theres no reason to think Trump would've slapped the button to end the world". My position is that if an honest to God "we need to end the world to rules lawyer Jesus to come back and initiate the mass genocides" millenarian death cultist didn't take that opportunity, Trump wouldn't have either. Is a big part of this belief the fact that he had Trump hotels in the middle east? Yes. Is this being the basis of my reasoning that he wouldn't have comforting to me? Absolutely not. But it's incredibly consistent with his behavior and how tied up in his Brand his NPD is Comrade Fakename posted:This isn't complicated - Bush found himself in a very singular situation after 9/11 and as such was able to do a bunch of things that other presidents who didn't have that kind of situation occur didn't have the opportunity to do. Trump did everything he could to start a war - and it was basically only a lack of enthusiasm for large-scale war among the populace that stopped him. If he (as in the guy who was elected in 2016) was president after 9/11, a time when there was huge enthusiasm for war in the US, he would 100% started a war, and you're an idiot if you think it wouldn't be worse than Bush's one was. It is not hyperbole to say he very likely would have dropped nukes. All the systems drummed up to allow Bush to do what he did are still in place and even expanded to this day and any war he proposed would have broad bipartisan support, just look at the responses to his idiotic airfield and MOAB strikes. No resistance to war existed then or now among the political classes, war is extremely good for the people they care about. I don't disagree Trump may have started a war in his place, but I disagree he would've launched the nukes. It's an act that no POTUS has done since the 40's despite nonstop war and attacks and violence and terrorism, and as a result I think the standard here should be higher than "he's evil AND doesn't talk pretty" which is about all the daylight there is between he and dubbya
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2021 19:18
|
|
|
Antifa Turkeesian posted:When people talk of abolishing the police, they usually mean the reorganization of the institution into something that would actually protect people or uphold the law, which at a bare minimum involves splitting the tasks of current metropolitan police agencies into several institutions. Actually they usually mean that the current institution needs to go away entirely because it's filled with racists and Nazis, irrespective of what happens after that. Separately, the laws themselves codify a shitload of racism so it's not possible to enforce them without also enforcing white supremacy, which is a huge problem, but there's the white supremacy the law requires and then all the extra white supremacy and murder that the cops do just because they can.
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2021 19:19
|
|
|
Antifa Turkeesian posted:Broadly speaking, metropolitan policing as an institution in Europe/"the west" dates to the eighteenth century. Prior to that, people organized informally, had local organizations made of part-time volunteers from the city or region, or had military units serve as adjuncts to the local court system. Modern police as a centralized institution owes its emergence to the development of capital and capitalism, and police forces the world over exist to preserve capital and capitalism. This is an extremely ahistorical read on the history of policing that attempts to act as if some very localized reforms to major metropolitan policing (specifically London) are the entire history of law enforcement so that 1000 years of evolution of the tension between the divine right of kings and the rule of law fits neatly into the lifespan of Karl Marx. edit: to be clear, most of this isn't necessarily factually incorrect, but you handwave away 90% of the the story in order to pretend the remaining 10% is the only part that matters. Jarmak fucked around with this message at 19:24 on Jan 4, 2021 |
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2021 19:19
|
|
|
Politico has some fun dirt from inside the Georgia Secretary of State's office.POLITICO Playbook: The backstory of Trump’s Georgia call posted:It started on Saturday when Trump and his team reached out to talk to Raffensperger, who, according to an adviser, felt he would be unethically pressured by the president. Raffensperger had been here before: In November he accused Trump ally and South Carolina Sen. Lindsey Graham of improperly exhorting him to meddle in the election to help Trump win Georgia. Graham later denied it. The article linked a definition for Leeroy Jenkins, because that's where we are these days as a society.
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2021 19:23
|
|
|
Any republican who claims that they are not recording every single communication they share with the president is either an idiot or a liar.
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2021 19:26
|
|
|
Angry_Ed posted:My dad worked on that, I even watched him do some work on it, and I still don't think it was a thing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Whu5nr17DYA
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2021 19:27
|
|
|
Leery Jenkins was a friendly and well intentioned dude who was just unfortunately overenthusiastic, how dare they assassinate his character with this comparison
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2021 19:28
|
|
|
Jarmak posted:This is an extremely ahistorical read on the history of policing that attempts to act as if some very localized reforms to major metropolitan policing (specifically London) are the entire history of law enforcement so that 1000 years of evolution of the tension between the divine right of kings and the rule of law fits neatly into the lifespan of Karl Marx. The answer depends partially on what you mean by police, but my argument is not restricted to Great Britain. "Law enforcement" in the European renaissance and earlier has very little in common with what we presently understand to be "police."
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2021 19:29
|
|
|
yronic heroism posted:What’s been lost in some of the “abolition vs reform” debate is that reform can be small and cosmetic or it can be really big, not to mention differences in kind. Legalizing marijuana would be a lot different than requiring a few hours of bias training, for example. Hello from Seattle. We tried legalizing marijuana. It's a good thing but it sure didn't fix our violent, racist cop problem. Also, even before we legalized it, we passed a city policy that said marijuana enforcement was the lowest possible priority - so if police had literally anything to do but arrest someone for weed, they were supposed to go do the other thing instead. The police union pitched a predictable fit about that and switched to harassing people for jaywalking instead (including a bunch of situations that, under state and municipal laws, weren't actually jaywalking at all).
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2021 19:30
|
|
|
Jarmak posted:This is an extremely ahistorical read on the history of policing that attempts to act as if some very localized reforms to major metropolitan policing (specifically London) are the entire history of law enforcement so that 1000 years of evolution of the tension between the divine right of kings and the rule of law fits neatly into the lifespan of Karl Marx. Yeah! Police in the US actually date to the early 1700s when the first runaway slave patrols were formed in the Carolinas.
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2021 19:31
|
|
|
Angry_Ed posted:Since it's obvious that you didn't read the article I linked earlier allow me to illuminate the situation. Didn't Obama's admin not stocking up on N95 masks and PPE also help contribute to the lack of response to the pandemic?
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2021 19:33
|
|
|
Shageletic posted:Didn't Obama's admin not stocking up on N95 masks and PPE also help contribute to the lack of response to the pandemic? Yes; they burned the majority of the stock on the flu pandemic response and never refilled it. quote:After the 2009 flu pandemic in which tens of millions of masks were distributed, fiscal constraints imposed by the agency's $600 million annual budget led officials to decide that replenishing a large inventory of N95 face masks was of less priority than stockpiling other equipment and drugs for diseases and disasters.[22]
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2021 19:35
|
|
|
VitalSigns posted:So more than half of all violent crimes aren't solved, in other words if you commit violent crime you will more likely than not get away with it already. Idk man whatever is preventing more people from committing violent crimes I doubt it's the police who let most of them get away anyway This assumes most people know their odds of arrest and are fine with 50/50 odds. Probably a lot of people would make pretty major efforts to not do something that would send them to prison, though. The real problem with this argument (and it goes both ways) is that deterrence can’t really be disproven or proven without a control group. So people will just argue what they want and we’ll get 5 more pages of this.
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2021 19:36
|
|
|
yronic heroism posted:This assumes most people know their odds of arrest and are fine with 50/50 odds. Probably a lot of people would make pretty major efforts to not do something that would send them to prison, though. True, however, I can say with certainty that all the Black folks murdered in cold blood by the cops would not have been murdered by the cops if there were no cops.
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2021 19:37
|
|
|
What's going on with Trump's taxes? The NYT dump feels like it was a century ago.
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2021 19:37
|
|
|
Space Gopher posted:Hello from Seattle. The point isn’t that that one thing is a cure-all. It’s that there is a whole world of possible reforms, most of which are untried. yronic heroism fucked around with this message at 19:44 on Jan 4, 2021 |
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2021 19:39
|
|
|
Shageletic posted:Didn't Obama's admin not stocking up on N95 masks and PPE also help contribute to the lack of response to the pandemic? Admittedly I spent so much time figuring everything Trump says is a lie the one time he says something that's technically true I ignored it. It's a failure to be sure, but the Trump admin had 2-3 years to replenish that stock anyway and didn't so  Anyway, other news, Ted Lieu and Kathleen Rice make a criminal referral to the FBI regarding Trump's electoral fraud phone call https://twitter.com/tedlieu/status/1346124522773164032 I don't expect this to do anything but I'm glad they're at least trying to do something about it. Angry_Ed fucked around with this message at 19:42 on Jan 4, 2021 |
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2021 19:39
|
|
|
Bubbacub posted:What's going on with Trump's taxes? The NYT dump feels like it was a century ago. SDNY is keeping quiet about it, if doing anything
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2021 19:39
|
|
|
Space Gopher posted:Hello from Seattle. This is one of the big problems with modern police forces. Even if you tell them to do something or try to restrict their actions they just keep on trucking, and the worst consequence they usually face is a sternly worded letter from the city council alongside their next budget increase.
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2021 19:41
|
|
|
Bubbacub posted:What's going on with Trump's taxes? The NYT dump feels like it was a century ago. On pause until the issues of potential presidential immunity and DOJ interference go away
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2021 19:42
|
|
|
Antifa Turkeesian posted:The answer depends partially on what you mean by police, but my argument is not restricted to Great Britain. "Law enforcement" in the European renaissance and earlier has very little in common with what we presently understand to be "police." Well that's fair, but I was mostly drawing on English history because that's where American law enforcement takes it's lineage from. Police in other parts of Europe have drastically different histories and even very different contemporary forms in some cases (see: Italian carbs being essentially military). And yes I'm not starting/stopping history based on usage of the specific term "police". Sheriffs, constables, bailiffs, etc are all considered "police" but they have individual histories that long predate professional police. Professional policing is more of an organizational reform, their functions existed prior and have long histories.
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2021 19:42
|
|
|
The Oldest Man posted:True, however, I can say with certainty that all the Black folks murdered in cold blood by the cops would not have been murdered by the cops if there were no cops. Most people are not interested in Proud Boys taking on a private enforcer function and things being even worse, which is why “no cops” is not a majority position in any US city or among any significant demographic I know of.
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2021 19:43
|
|
|
yronic heroism posted:This assumes most people know their odds of arrest and are fine with 50/50 odds. Probably a lot of people would make pretty major efforts to not do something that would send them to prison, though. We saw from this summer that it only takes a very very small fraction of the population to decide to loot stores and cops are powerless to stop it. If even 1% of Americans decided to just start stealing from stores they'd never be stopped or caught. If everyone did it law would vanish. Whatever is keeping people from doing that every day it isn't the police, it must be something else
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2021 19:43
|
|
|
Sodomy Hussein posted:SDNY is keeping quiet about it, if doing anything Just a reminder that SDNY is feds and the DA of Manhattan was the one elected on the premise of loving the Trump org in as many ways as possible. Eric has a deposition a couple of Monday's before the election but that it happened is the only thing I saw about it. Re: The thought experiment about whether or not a Clinton administration would have responded better. The thing that made me switch from "Oh, it'll be just like H1N1" to "we're hosed" was late January, early February when the first possible infections where hitting the West Coast and the "response team" went, did whatever work they were doing, then flew back to Atlanta via commercial travel. highme fucked around with this message at 19:51 on Jan 4, 2021 |
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2021 19:45
|
|
|
haveblue posted:On pause until the issues of potential presidential immunity and DOJ interference go away Not to mention that blasting out their case on national television is just a way to broadcast what they are planning to focus on. There is a nonzero chance that they have found crimes that even the Trump accountants have forgotten about.
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2021 19:47
|
|
|
Shageletic posted:Didn't Obama's admin not stocking up on N95 masks and PPE also help contribute to the lack of response to the pandemic? Yes* *Theoretically they chose to buy other possibly essential items in a time when the stockpile budget was getting slashed: https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/apr/08/donald-trump/trump-said-obama-admin-left-him-bare-stockpile-wro/. Not saying that this is a valid reason for not replenishing the stockpile with N95 masks towards the end of his presidency. However, I wouldn't lay the blame solely on Obama, since this happened 3 years into Trump's presidency with a much larger stockpile budget compared to 2013. I know this was already stated but just wanted to provide a little more information for those who are curious.
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2021 19:47
|
|
|
ColdPie posted:My wife and I have watched a few 80s, 90s, 2000s movies this year, the kind of stuff we grew up with. In almost every single one, the only black people were the antagonists. The one I can name off the top of my head was Blank Check. I'm just spitballing here and not saying it hasn't been an issue (or still isn't) but: Beverly Hills Cop, Blade, Do the Right Thing, Ricochet, Space Jam, Harlem Nights, Shawshank Redemption, The Green Mile, Malcolm X, Ali, Men in Black, Friday, Boyz in the Hood, Poetic Justice, Purple Rain, The Color Purple, Lethal Weapon, Higher Learning, Love and Basketball, Remember the Titans, He Got Game, New Jack City, Action Jackson, Shaft, Pulp Fiction, Scary Movie, Fear of a Black Hat, Undercover Brother, Rush Hour, Seven, Independence Day, Men of Honor, Spawn, Platoon, Ghost Dog... I'm just rattling stuff off here as more pop into my head - movies I've enjoyed to one degree or the other- where this is not really true. I'd say that all things being equal and considered that Asians are more under represented in cinema (and government) overall than black folks. At least as a % of the population and how they both deal with the same stereotypes. One thing I DID notice typing that out was how many of those movies have the same loving actors (Sam Jackson, Denzel, Wil Smith, Morgan Freeman) but that's sort of a separate argument.
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2021 19:48
|
|
|
VitalSigns posted:Yeah that's why I'm skeptical of claims that police deter anything. This conclusion does not follow from the observation that precedes it. If everyone stops following the law at the same time then yes the law becomes unenforceable. At some point we call that a revolution and write new laws that enough of the population agrees with that they are enforceable upon the part of the population that doesn't. If everyone decides they're just going to start murdering then we've got larger problems than the police clearance rate.
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2021 19:54
|
|
|
yronic heroism posted:Most people are not interested in Proud Boys taking on a private enforcer function and things being even worse, which is why “no cops” is not a majority position in any US city or among any significant demographic I know of. Instead we give the proud boys guns and badges and a legal license to kill in their role of public enforcers
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2021 19:54
|
|
|
Jarmak posted:This conclusion does not follow from the observation that precedes it. The conclusion that whatever is preventing most people from murdering, it isn't the police, follows naturally from this observation.
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2021 19:56
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 11, 2024 17:40 |
|
|
VitalSigns posted:Yeah that's why I'm skeptical of claims that police deter anything. This just as easily lends itself as an argument for reform though because you could just as easily say “well we should no longer be doing broken windows policing and will focus more on violent crime and the budgets should reflect that.” I definitely do not buy that no one is deferred by the law. I think we have at least a few million extremists, for example, who want at a bare minimum to run over protesters and coup the government, who basically are kept in line by the idea they’d be caught and punished. Yes if they all acted as one they could probably get away with a of terror, but they can’t act that collectively and most feel they don’t want to be an individual martyr or incarcerated.
|
|
#
?
Jan 4, 2021 19:58
|
|