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King of Solomon posted:For what it's worth, you can mute terms on Twitter, so to a certain degree Content Warnings could be used to just prevent you from seeing those tweets at all. Like if a rape victim wanted to just mute the words/phrases "rape", "sexual assault," etc. Oh, I didn't think of that. That makes them more useful, yes.
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Jan 10, 2021 21:21
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So as a result of this Ajey Pandey has been removed or excluded from a number of projects or opportunities: https://twitter.com/RPGHour/status/1348116022063230978 https://twitter.com/DeathByMage/status/1348133198207844354 https://twitter.com/media_junkie/status/1348164883515379718 https://twitter.com/andreas_mwg/status/1348286360583507969 Now, please keep in mind that what Ajey Pandey has actually been accused of doing is the biggest nothingburger ever: he mentioned wanting to steal the aesthetic of Ben Flower to someone Pammu follows on Twitter, and then apologised performatively and without consent. (I want to emphasize here that Pammu is specifically not saying that Pandey mentioned Ben Flower to themselves: they're talking about the harmful and triggering behaviour of talking about Ben Flower to someone else.) Notice also the phrasing used by several of these tweets: they "believe and support Pammu", they "believe and stand with Pammu and [Pammu's partner]". This is the language we use, as a community, to announce our support to people coming forward about abuse: it's a language of a calibre used to talk about rapists and abusive boyfriends. To wit, people are reading Pammu's original tweet and outright accusing Ajey Pandey of being an abuser: https://twitter.com/TheseDeadPens/status/1348159067622170624 For tweeting about Ben Flower to someone Pammu follows on Twitter. All because Pammu has framed this molehill in the mountainous language and terms we use to talk about abuse. Though they haven't specifically called Pandey an abuser, their tweet was patterned after a coming-forward-about-abuse post, and people are instinctively filling in the blanks through pattern-recognition, the actual content notwithstanding. The result is that Pammu has turned an incredibly minor issue into a way to generate outrage towards Pandey and get them shunned by the community, excluding them from podcasts and publishing opportunities. Keep in mind that Pandey is a marginalized minority indie publisher who is extremely reliant on their community to stay in the industry. Now, the very same day they did their tell-all about Pandey, Pammu also retweeted this: https://twitter.com/bleongambetta/status/1347957123817345025 Yeah, I wonder how that comes about. To be clear here: what Pammu is doing to Pandey is a form of abuse. (It's possible there's more to this story and Pandey actually has done something genuinely exclude-from-community bad but it's bizarre to act as if he has when there's no actual evidence of it. Surely if he's actually an abuser, you'd, again, make your coming-forward tell-all about the time he kicked your puppy while you watched, and not the he mentioned a puppy-kicker's work in flower-arranging to someone else.)
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Jan 10, 2021 22:45
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Bloody hell. I mean wait and see what, if anything, comes out but bloody hell this seems strange and off-putting.
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Jan 10, 2021 22:49
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I don't use Twitter very often. Is it normal for "apologizing without consent" to be considered a crime, or is that specific to the social circle these posters inhabit?
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Jan 10, 2021 22:59
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mellonbread posted:I don't use Twitter very often. Is it normal for "apologizing without consent" to be considered a crime, or is that specific to the social circle these posters inhabit? The wording is weird but it's at least broadly accepted that apologising to the public without first or specifially apologising to the person who's actually upset is at best kind of obnoxious.
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Jan 10, 2021 23:12
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mellonbread posted:I don't use Twitter very often. Is it normal for "apologizing without consent" to be considered a crime, or is that specific to the social circle these posters inhabit?
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Jan 10, 2021 23:16
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LatwPIAT posted:Now, please keep in mind that what Ajey Pandey has actually been accused of doing is the biggest nothingburger ever: he mentioned wanting to steal the aesthetic of Ben Flower to someone Pammu follows on Twitter, and then apologised performatively and without consent. (I want to emphasize here that Pammu is specifically not saying that Pandey mentioned Ben Flower to themselves: they're talking about the harmful and triggering behaviour of talking about Ben Flower to someone else.) Matt Bruenig posted:If we create a button that, when pressed, magically requires everyone else to agree with your ideas and demands, people would be foolish not to press it.
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Jan 10, 2021 23:33
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Asking people to publicly air their trauma in enough detail to retraumatize themself is a big ask, at least in my eyes. I know Pammu enough to know that if she's talking about something, that she's talking about it for a reason.
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Jan 10, 2021 23:37
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LatwPIAT posted:Keep in mind that Pandey is a marginalized minority indie publisher who is extremely reliant on their community to stay in the industry. So is Pammu, for the record. The young itch-focused indie tabletop scene is only partially on Twitter and partially, as Brandon suggests in your quoted tweet, in countless small public and private Discords, many of which are for specific games or small groups (often marginalized groups, despite what Brandon implies). I am not in any of them and am out of the loop on anything not specifically mentioned by Pammu or Ajey (in his thread that you did not address where he admits numerous bad behaviors and insists people do not defend him). I do not think I am the audience of Pammu's tweets. I do agree that everybody jumping off the Ajey Pandey ship immediately is surprising and maybe unwarranted -- but I only say maybe because there is clearly more going on here that I am not privy to. I also think outright calling Pammu an abuser here, primarily because of the actions of other people, is a huge stretch.
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Jan 10, 2021 23:45
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Forgive my ignorance, but who is this Ben Flower? From context, it doesn't appear to be the Welsh rugby league player who's the only person with that name who comes up in my google searches...
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Jan 11, 2021 00:16
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DigitalRaven posted:Forgive my ignorance, but who is this Ben Flower? From context, it doesn't appear to be the Welsh rugby league player who's the only person with that name who comes up in my google searches... Ben Chong, did Swords and Flowers. This is all I've found but I admittedly didn't look hard.
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Jan 11, 2021 00:18
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DigitalRaven posted:Forgive my ignorance, but who is this Ben Flower? From context, it doesn't appear to be the Welsh rugby league player who's the only person with that name who comes up in my google searches... He sexually assaulted a disturbingly large amount of people at Big Bad Con in... I want to say 2019.
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Jan 11, 2021 00:21
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On the Ben Flowers thing, if I recall correctly that would be @SwordsnFlowers on Twitter, who was outed as a sexual predator (not just online, I think it had something to do with his work at a university?) and it went the rounds this summer, I want to say end of June/beginning of July? I'm not particularly in those specific indie circles but I still had ripples of it washing up on my Twitter feed and there were definitely shocked and horrified people in the indie scene; a search of his handle on Twitter should turn up what happened unless it's all been deleted. Why he's being evoked now, I haven't really managed to follow; either it's all actually in a kaleidoscope of discords, as posited up-thread, but if this Ajey deliberately stated a plan to emulate Flowers' aesthetic(?)/design space(?) after all the above I could see it being a good case of stepping on a rake at the very least. (I'd also wonder a bit about 'why say that in public' myself, but yeah.)
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Jan 11, 2021 00:24
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Blind Azathoth posted:(in his thread that you did not address where he admits numerous bad behaviors and insists people do not defend him) I didn't think it needed addressing. You'd already linked the tweets, and it's not as if any of the behaviour described really justifies this kind of public trashing in response. Blind Azathoth posted:I do agree that everybody jumping off the Ajey Pandey ship immediately is surprising and maybe unwarranted -- but I only say maybe because there is clearly more going on here that I am not privy to. I also think outright calling Pammu an abuser here, primarily because of the actions of other people, is a huge stretch. Unjust public pillorying, like many unjust punishments, is a form of abuse. The effect of it is largely dependent on a group response so a public call-out may not be solely the responsibility of one person, but it's fairly well recognized that the instigator bears a lot, if not the majority, of the responsibility. To then set out to deliberately call someone out, framed in the extremely harsh language typically reserved for emotional or sexual abuse, unjustly, is itself a form of abuse. Maybe not intentionally, maybe the power of the call-out wielded irresponsibly, maybe a very gross misunderstanding, and I'm not going to label Pammu "an abuser", but I maintain that this is a form of abuse. And abuse is, like, bad, and I think we should recognize that and work to make it happen less.
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Jan 11, 2021 00:59
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Legit not doing some garbage sea-lioning thing or something, just honestly confused because I'd never even heard of any of these people before : What the gently caress? I can't even really parse this. Person X is angry at person Y because they mentioned person Z (who I gather is a shitbird) in a tweet I haven't seen, and person Y apologized wrongly in some way I don't follow (which could be true but doesn't make me understand), and now there's a giant kerfuffle over this? Am I getting this at all right? Again, not just-asking-questions as some kind of rhetorical device, I legit don't know what the hell is going on.
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Jan 11, 2021 02:08
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Yeah I literally have no idea who any of these people are.
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Jan 11, 2021 02:12
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Xiahou Dun posted:Person X is angry at person Y because they mentioned person Z (who I gather is a shitbird) in a tweet I haven't seen, and person Y apologized wrongly in some way I don't follow (which could be true but doesn't make me understand), and now there's a giant kerfuffle over this? Am I getting this at all right? The tweet was addressed to X's twitter-mutual W, but other than that, that seems to be it.
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Jan 11, 2021 02:24
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[snip]
UnCO3 fucked around with this message at 01:29 on Jan 20, 2021 |
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Jan 11, 2021 02:27
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LatwPIAT posted:The tweet was addressed to X's twitter-mutual W, but other than that, that seems to be it. So again admitting my total ignorance, did this person actually do something beyond "being arguably rude"? I certainly don't want to shut down anyone's complaints, so I'm assuming the fault is mine and I just don't know enough, but from what I've read in this thread (and nowhere else, cause, again, don't know who anyone is) this sounds less bad than cutting someone off in traffic or something. I must be missing something. Please feel free to correct my brains out.
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Jan 11, 2021 02:56
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Xiahou Dun posted:So again admitting my total ignorance, did this person actually do something beyond "being arguably rude"? That seems to be it. Which is why the whole thing is so ridiculous: the full power of the Twitter Call-Out Battle-Station has been unleashed over basically nothing. Which is why I maintain it's a grossly misproportionate and at best irresponsible tweet that seems to have the effect to targeting Ajey for abuse.
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Jan 11, 2021 04:16
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I’m unsurprised to see overlap between this and defenders of that horrible flowchart about not hiring people of color in APs awhile back. Unexamined purity policing yaaaaaay
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Jan 11, 2021 04:30
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Blind Azathoth posted:I do agree that everybody jumping off the Ajey Pandey ship immediately is surprising and maybe unwarranted I'd say it's no longer surprising that this is the reaction: the indie tabletop community is so primed for reactions like this that they're ready to cut all ties and issue public denunciations at the drop of a hat, not least because failing to do so can leave you vulnerable to attack as well. LatwPIAT's description of it as the Twitter Call-Out Battle-Station accurately frames this response as a weapon, and it's a weapon people are learning how to abuse. Re: Ben Flowers, I was in a game with them at Big Bad 2019, and for what it's worth they were the only person at the con I got an 'off' vibe from. While I didn't see any skeevy behavior, I wouldn't have wanted to be alone in a room with them if I thought I was someone they could be attracted to. They're big, athletic, with an equally large personality that tries to dominate the space they're in.
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Jan 11, 2021 04:48
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deleted. gently caress you people.
sasha_d3ath fucked around with this message at 07:58 on Jan 11, 2021 |
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Jan 11, 2021 07:46
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O god I hope I didn't make you think that. I honestly can't keep up with the story and wanted clarification. She could possibly be in the wrong, sure, but I have the exact same amount of evidence of that that she's a unicorn with very pretty hair.
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Jan 11, 2021 07:59
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TK_Nyarlathotep posted:I do noooooot like how quickly this thread decided this is all over nothing and just another twitter outrage. Plus the demands that the abuse survivor give us exacting detail about their abuse. Plus the utter dismissal of the abuse survivor because they didn't lay it all out. Plus the... Personally, like I indicated in my first comment (and the only one directly about this and not about surrounding factors), I'm holding off on a judgment. I don't know who any of these people are or have any investment in any of their choices. If it comes out that the dude is a sex pest or something, great, out the door please. Nobody has the information to figure that out, so I'm just waiting for something substantial to come out from these several places that immediately severed ties and, like the original post, disabled replies on their statements so nobody can ask them about it. Judge other goons how you want, that's your initiative. I don't see any of your entire first paragraph as a realistic description of the past page of posts. e: edited to delete the whole original comment in the time it took me to write this
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Jan 11, 2021 08:01
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You have to describe abuse happening before people can demand details of abuse. “Person A was a jerk and I don’t want to deal with them any more” is a fine position to take, but it’s not the same as outing an abuser and shouldn’t be couched in the same language.
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Jan 11, 2021 08:04
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admanb posted:You have to describe abuse happening before people can demand details of abuse. “Person A was a jerk and I don’t want to deal with them any more” is a fine position to take, but it’s not the same as outing an abuser and shouldn’t be couched in the same language. It's this. The social media annihilation beam needs to be wielded responsibly, with specific allegations of serious misconduct, and in this case that's not what I've seen so far. We applaud the courage of people who come forward with those serious allegations and place our faith in them because doing that is hard and painful; vagueposting does not deserve the same degree of respect and cooperation. If there's a genuine need to sound the alarm about someone, by all means do it so they can be destroyed. But this is a tool that should be used to protect a community from a threat in its midst, not a scorched-earth tactic to be deployed as part of an ongoing interpersonal conflict. Edit: The fact of the matter is that communities like tabletop games have only one way to deal with abusers, and it's vigilante justice delivered via ostracism. There are no trials here, no lawyers, often very little evidence beyond hearsay and the occasional eyewitness. Knowing this, we've set our evidentiary standards very low because we usually can't expect people to produce anything better. If you can't or won't clear that deliberately low bar, then frankly, you haven't earned the right to the power to destroy someone. Kestral fucked around with this message at 10:27 on Jan 11, 2021 |
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Jan 11, 2021 10:14
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Who in this thread demanded a gut-wrenching, detailed recounting of abuse?
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Jan 11, 2021 17:13
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I don't really know if it's worth signal boosting every twitter thread here when ultimately it's going to come down like this, with a bunch of bleary-eyed goons who aren't following twitter people or keyed into the private discord communities these are based out of going "What?" and "Huh?" And honestly to me LatwPIAT's posts do kind of run right up to the "cancel culture run amok!!" line for me, too. Like part of the thing here is Pammu's callout kind of requires you to bank trust in her and nobody here has that, so sure from the outside it seems pretty light on the details, but also I don't feel comfortable implying she's an abuser either and that feels pretty out of place to infer unless someone's going to disclose that they've got a lot more context on the situation than is being supplied here.
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Jan 11, 2021 17:47
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Pretty much. From the outside with no information, all we can really do is go "uh... sucks, drat, wish I had a clue what this even means". Nothing really constructive and a lot of room for negativity. Certainly not going to try and police others' posts but I guess there's a line of... Familiarity isn't quite the word, but I can't think of what a better one is, to keep in mind for these kinds of things. If nobody's gonna know what the hell's going on, and the information isn't out there to figure it out without already being a part of these closed circles, then yeah I guess it's good to know "hey this dude got cut from a bunch of deals over accusations". I don't see what else we can really do with that as a thread without leading into this sticky territory? e: further followup, I maintain my lack of a position but yes, "Pammu is clearly an abuser here" is a pretty bad take, even if I don't quite understand the nature of her accusation just making it doesn't automatically make her an abuser, if she's making false ones that's a whole different story but we don't know that SkyeAuroline fucked around with this message at 18:08 on Jan 11, 2021 |
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Jan 11, 2021 18:01
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Every interaction with Twitter makes me confident that my leaving Twitter was the correct decision.
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Jan 11, 2021 18:10
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moths posted:Every interaction with Twitter makes me confident that my leaving Twitter was the correct decision. The best way to engage with twitter is to never, ever have a public conversation on it. My feed is basically various international museums & historians, a lot of animal bots & zoos, and a bunch of RPG figures & official accounts, and while I only look at it once a week or so I find it fairly pleasant when I do. Extremely Online Twitter, on the other hand, is a terrifying place.
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Jan 11, 2021 18:16
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I agree that tempests in unfamiliar teapots aren't super useful fodder for the TG as an Industry thread. Of course, indie gaming is a teapot some of us could afford to get more familiar with, and some of us are fully steeped in, so it's got to be hard to know exactly where to draw the line. Like others, I feel nowhere near informed enough to parse the situation well, nor to pass judgement one way or another. My main interest today is just not having a bad fight in this thread, but none seems to be brewing so that's cool. I also do not want to squash discussion of the indie gaming industry, even if that discussion is about micro-communities, twitter wars, and discord rumors. The track record on this sort of event winding up as a nasty fight in this thread has been mixed, but it's not a very long track record. So my feeling, which is open to some debate, is: go ahead and post about and/or post your responses to stuff like this if you want to, but, be aware that few other goons will readily know what's going on, some goons may know more about what's going on than you, sometimes they know what's going on but aren't at liberty to give many details, judgements on who is to blame or at fault (if anyone) are likely to vary, and on all of those bases, we can afford to cut one another a healthy measure of slack. In other words, let's keep it civil, try to avoid drawing hard conclusions on scant evidence, and be chill. SkyeAuroline posted:e: further followup, I maintain my lack of a position but yes, "Pammu is clearly an abuser here" is a pretty bad take, even if I don't quite understand the nature of her accusation just making it doesn't automatically make her an abuser, if she's making false ones that's a whole different story but we don't know that I appreciate this position: basically, if Pammu hasn't provided enough evidence for the general twitter audience to judge, that neither proves nor disproves any particular position on whether it's justified; and there may or may not be good reasons for being coy about that evidence, depending on how personal or painful or confidential it may be. My position is basically: if you have a situation like this, it'd be nice if it were possible to circulate to the community what is going on, without having to use vague tweets. But I don't expect 100% of people to be totally social-media-savvy experts who use those tools to their best effect without loving it up, and "didn't do twitter right" is not exactly a condemnable offense either. I wind up just kind of shrugging and going "well, if there's something there, hopefully the people most affected will understand and do the right thing" and that's that.
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Jan 11, 2021 18:19
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Haystack posted:Reborn as the The Weakest Class "Monk," but I'll Prove it the Strongest... Wait, No, Nevermind it's Terrible Oh my god
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Jan 11, 2021 18:52
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Nuns with Guns posted:And honestly to me LatwPIAT's posts do kind of run right up to the "cancel culture run amok!!" line for me, too. "cancel culture run amok" has been mocked, often rightly so, as a bunch of privileged millionaires being held accountable for their bigotry in a way that loses them one job opportunity out of ten and probably gets them a Netflix show where they can complain about how "cancel culture" is making it impossible for them to get Netflix shows. That's "cancel culture" to privileged public figures, people who are basically immune to canceling's consequences because they have money, fame, contacts, a support network, etc. It's the modern version of "public outrage" and it's not terribly noteworthy. However, a related but very different phenomenon is what happens in small communities of (typically) marginalized people. We call it "canceling" now but it's been known by many names: in lesbian communities in the 60s and 70s it was "trashing" and in the Riot Grrl communities of the 90s it was "'zining". In schools it's typically just called "bullying": Someone denounces another person in order to ostracize them from the community. The critical difference between trashing and cancelling a racist comedian is that when you're a vulnerable, marginalized person being ostracized, you typically don't have much else to fall back on: you're not losing a tenth of your professional opportunities, you're losing the majority if not all of your personal network. It turns what's supposed to be a safe and supporting community into a place of uncertainty and fear. It's a genuine problem, and it's particularly bad because small communities like this are also kept safe by zealously excluding bad actors. Which also makes it very easy to ostracize someone, because everyone are already primed to kick someone out. And like, I get why people are mocking complaints about "cancel culture", but it's really quite grating to be a Mentally Ill Lesbian Transwoman With Hopes Of Making It In The Roleplaying Game Industry and voice concerns about the way lesbian, transwoman, and transwoman/lesbian-adjacent indie RPG communities has a problem with bullying through ostracism and call-out posts and it's making me and people I know feel unsafe--and have all that dismissed as bad-faith complaints about "cancel culture". I know you don't intend to dismiss it, but it's a very real problem and this latest thing has shown how easily it happens: Ajey Pandey is being ostracized and labelled an abuser because someone irresponsibly used the Very Scary Framing to talk about the time Pandey tweeted Ben Flower's name at a third party and then apologized in the wrong way.
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Jan 11, 2021 22:53
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Meinberg posted:Asking people to publicly air their trauma in enough detail to retraumatize themself is a big ask, at least in my eyes. I know Pammu enough to know that if she's talking about something, that she's talking about it for a reason. Everyone seems to be ignoring this post, for some reason
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Jan 11, 2021 23:32
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It's also worth pointing out that this weakens the actual mechanisms that protect the vulnerable from the wicked. This gives sincere abusers the equivalent of an "I'm on Megan's List because I peed in a park" example. It dilutes the value of ostracism, and clouds the issues surrounding content. Also: Since when is consent required to voice regret? "You need my permission to express an emotion" is the most toxic, controlling concept I've encountered all year.
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Jan 11, 2021 23:39
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Tarnop posted:Everyone seems to be ignoring this post, for some reason I took note, just didn't comment on it. "She has a reason for making an accusation" doesn't really clarify the situation, and I think the first bit about enough detail to retraumatize the speaker falls in with other misinterpretation that's been addressed; I don't think anyone is asking for a graphic play-by-play of every second of the events that happened, or even really asking for much detail at all beyond "what did he do to make saying someone's name to someone else, and then apologize publicly for doing so, trip into abusive territory?" I'm not an expert but I don't think you have to go into full gruesome detail for that. I maintain that my only cause for suspicion with Pammu is the immediate muting of all replies across both her thread and all (but one) of the other people or groups that cut ties. Not allowing clarifications or other questions/discussion rubs a little wrong. Could totally be nothing though, and really isn't my place to be concerned or pry as long as all parties involved have enough info to go on.
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Jan 11, 2021 23:44
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Tarnop posted:Everyone seems to be ignoring this post, for some reason I'm thinking about it and not ignoring it. It's tough because it essentially relies on someone's reputation as being trustworthy & honest and having good judgement etc. etc. as a proxy for evidence. I don't know this person, so I have no particular way to judge their reputation and decide if they're just not giving details because doing so would be awful, or if they're not giving details because there are no details to give or they're too weak to hold up or something. Maybe they have a reputation that is unimpeachable among the crowd that understands and cares about this particular case? Twitter is a broadcast to the whole world, but for some folks, it feels to them more like a conversation with peers (who also use twitter) and maybe there's enough community-known info and context etc. for that audience to simply accept something egregious was done, and that's who matters right now, and us over here in this weird internet corner are just too disconnected to be worth considering when making a to-us cryptic tweet. moths posted:Also: Since when is consent required to voice regret? "You need my permission to express an emotion" is the most toxic, controlling concept I've encountered all year. When it's seen (correctly, which I am not asserting in this case) as performative rather than sincere. Theatrically being an ally and apologizing where all of your fans can see you doing it and insisting that no, nobody try to defend me, I was awful, etc. etc. are all potentially hallmarks of a person who cares more about their reputation and having fans see them as an honest but flawed human being they can continue to support because clearly their heart is in the right place. In the abstract I can see such a thing as having happened, and in fact in specifics (outside gaming) I've seen it done. But this feeds into a broader problem of apologies being incredibly weird things anyway. What are they actually for? Who are they for? If I apologize to you, is there a social expectation for you to accept my apology and forgive me? What if I seem to be weaponizing that expectation? How about if you have more fans than me, and then you magnanimously accept my apology but in a slightly sarcastic way that implies that actually you're just being the bigger person and I'm still trash? What if I apologize, but it's possible to parse my text as being "sorry you were offended" rather than "I did something I should not have under any objective judgement"? It's all tricky in any circumstance, and IMO made much trickier when it's done in public, with audiences, with money or careers on the line, using social media, with a peanut gallery commenting, with overlapping or competing fanbases who have their own biases and expectations, and in an environment where people have been terribly bad actors for many years and some segment is finally totally done with that poo poo and unwilling to keep putting up with an endless cycle of abusers abusing vulnerable people. So I wind up right back where I started. Maybe it's absurd to cancel someone for apologizing wrong, or maybe it's totally legit if they're a self-serving rear end in a top hat doing it purely because they know how to play a particular role on the public stage to get the best outcome for themselves. I can't tell the difference any more and I'm suspicious of those who think they 100% always can. Leperflesh fucked around with this message at 23:55 on Jan 11, 2021 |
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Jan 11, 2021 23:52
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I will say that apology was weird and performative as hell and is more likely than anything else in Pammu's thread to make me shy away from Pandey. Though that is again a "this guy is in it for himself and not someone I would want to work with" not "this guy's an abuser."
admanb fucked around with this message at 00:02 on Jan 12, 2021 |
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Jan 11, 2021 23:57
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