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OwlFancier posted:I'm struggling to see how trains are practical for delivering passengers. Frankly I'm struggling to see how long range commutes are practical at all. Trains have high volume but I can't see how you'd use more than a fraction of it, and you also seem like you would lose a huge amount of productivity with staffing shortages unless you somehow flood your train lines with trains, which jams them up because of block restrictions. Aside from RP purposes, you can have a settlement far enough from an industrial area to not get pollution, but near enough to a city to arrive with plenty of time. If the train arrives and there's nowhere for a passenger to go, they remain on the train. If the train can go more or less straight back and forth between the start and finish, you can have relatively stable loads at the risk of increased unemployment from people timing out. OwlFancier posted:I wish that distribution centers could handle pickup from fields, seems daft really to have to store trucks in the agro farm when you only use them for a fraction of the year. Yeah, it's pretty awesome, skip the agro center altogether and send that corn straight to where it needs to go! biglads posted:Info about the cheat menu ... I'm dense, I don't see that option. Which one is it?
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Jan 11, 2021 22:52
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I think I need to rejigger the agro factory to add road cargo stations offloading to grain silos which then direct connect to factories. Previously I had the agro farms connecting direct to the silos which makes it hard to get direct connections to all the various crop processors. If I don't need to keep adding agro farms just for truck capacity or use them as the dropoff that might make it easier.
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Jan 11, 2021 23:01
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OwlFancier posted:I wish that distribution centers could handle pickup from fields, seems daft really to have to store trucks in the agro farm when you only use them for a fraction of the year. This is absolutely the way to do this. I don't even buy trucks for my farms themselves anymore. (The UI sort of implies that the farm is broken if you don't have a truck, but its lying.) The real challenge is storing enough grain in a convenient way for an entire year. I'm already to a point where my modded-in 5000 crop massive grain silo is empty before mid-summer. I'd have to have a *lot* of grain silos using only stock buildings, which means a lot more futzing with making sure that the crops get from each silo to where they need to go. Crops are my bane.
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Jan 11, 2021 23:05
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I got the big silo and I could probably store it OK, main issue is with factory connections being so limited, you're not allowed any kind of other pathway or they lose their instant transfer, which is the whole point of having them becuse forklifts cannot throughput enough. It's weird that grain can't be moved by bucket lift, that's literally how it's normally moved. I guess I would need a distro center to move it from the fields to a silo, then a second set of silos in the actual factory area to store the stuff for processing, with cargo stations to increase truck throughput volume.
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Jan 11, 2021 23:11
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OwlFancier posted:I think I need to rejigger the agro factory to add road cargo stations offloading to grain silos which then direct connect to factories. Previously I had the agro farms connecting direct to the silos which makes it hard to get direct connections to all the various crop processors. Using only stock buildings, I had success with 3 grain silos stuck together with factory connections, then told the distro centers to drop their crops from fields in the center one. Because resources will travel for free between a single connection, this will fill all 3. Then I used the two outer silos as a source for bringing it to nearby factories or their attached storages. Using that 3-long chain helped total storage capacity, but also stopped the distro centers or lines handling BigGrainStorage->Factory from immediately rushing the BigGrainStorage dock with all their trucks and slowing up my harvest dramatically. You could probably easily invert this too and deliver to the outside and pull from the middle - that's probably smarter. Now with the massive grain silo, I just stick a road cargo depot alongside and call it a day. e: yeah my current set up is just "big grain silo gets fed by road cargo station and thats also where trucks go to load and feed factories" but that only scales so far and it's becoming a problem for me. I could simply duplicate the set up to expand it, but I want something more elegant.
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Jan 11, 2021 23:13
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Will silos connected directly to each other share resources then? I tried that and it seemed like it was just sitting in one of them. Also can two silos connected to a cargo station transfer across the station to each other?
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Jan 11, 2021 23:17
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OwlFancier posted:Will silos connected directly to each other share resources then? I tried that and it seemed like it was just sitting in one of them. Yes, but you need to be careful - dropping off something at the center silo will jump *one* connection and fill the other two, but I don't think this works if you connect a silo to a silo and then to a cargo station. I think the truck dropping stuff off that "pushes" resources will count the cargo station->silo as the one 'free' transfer over a factory connection. The "sharing" is basically a function of the truck being able to push or pull resources, and it can do this through one connection. I think this logic probably exists to enable road cargo stations and it isn't a true intention that buildings 'share,' so you have to be conscious of the truck being what's doing the 'sharing.' You could reasonably just connect as many silos as you want to a road cargo station and that road cargo station would functionally act as a single, massive storage, but I don't think they'll share with each other. e: now that I think about it that can't be totally right with sharing, because factories will spit out to one additional storage.. I don't know. My advice is to use caution and test a lot.
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Jan 11, 2021 23:22
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That makes more sense if it only shares when it overflows one silo. I think that cargo stations with silos connected is likely to be the best long term storage solution. Possibly it may be viable to use the distro center fill level rules to equalize between multiple or something, I don't know.
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Jan 11, 2021 23:26
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OwlFancier posted:That makes more sense if it only shares when it overflows one silo. I think that cargo stations with silos connected is likely to be the best long term storage solution. It is - I think the only thing I'm not a big fan of with this approach is that I like to be able to separate the input and output docks for something like this.. Though I suppose you could just use the dock of the silo itself as the input, then the cargo station as the output. That, and reasonably aesthetically pleasing packaging, but that's with everything.
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Jan 11, 2021 23:29
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Volmarias posted:... I'm dense, I don't see that option. Which one is it? Give me a minute - it doesn't get mentioned in the article but it's available from the Esc menu IIRC. I'll get in game and grab a screenshot.
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Jan 11, 2021 23:50
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Presumably there is nothing stopping you from using two cargo stations if you want separate input/output, load at one, unload at the other. Obviously you get less actual storage without the mega silos.
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Jan 11, 2021 23:58
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OwlFancier posted:Presumably there is nothing stopping you from using two cargo stations if you want separate input/output, load at one, unload at the other. Obviously you get less actual storage without the mega silos. Just be careful not to assign both of those to the same distribution center, or you'll have trucks load from the one just to immediately unload to the other.
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Jan 12, 2021 00:05
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OK, so hold down C, H & E together and you'll get a notification popup that the cheat menu is active. From there, go into Settings and there is a new option, the General Debug/Cheat functions. Click on this and there'll be a list of options, check the Line Spacing. 
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Jan 12, 2021 00:08
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Volmarias posted:Just be careful not to assign both of those to the same distribution center, or you'll have trucks load from the one just to immediately unload to the other. That is annoying yeah, it would be nice if the game could either be told or figure out not to do that.
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Jan 12, 2021 00:10
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biglads posted:OK, so hold down C, H & E together and you'll get a notification popup that the cheat menu is active. Magnificent. Thank you!
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Jan 12, 2021 00:17
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Volmarias posted:Magnificent. Thank you! No problem  Even though I put together the OP I can see that even Owl Fancier who seems to have at best a love/hate relationship with the game is making better looking cities than me  Least I can do is try to help by sharing stuff I learned. Another useful resource for me is this Mod Review playlist. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL1pRVc0Lq8IrSvIYLWSYv1KqUJEvw635F It goes through a lot of popular mods and you get to see their stats (e.g. are they unbalanced?) and how they place, their connections as well etc. Eventually I will flood the world markets with enough licence built Zastava 1200s to fund fully automated luxury gay space communism. biglads fucked around with this message at 00:28 on Jan 12, 2021 |
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Jan 12, 2021 00:24
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I like quite a few things about the game, I just also see some elements of it that seem like they could be fairly simple improvements that would massively expand the usability, I keep running into things that are just... seemingly unecessarily awkward to do. And which could be improved seemingly without major simulation changes as they are largely interface and conceptualizing the simulation related. Even with that in mind though there is a lot to like and it is nice watching the things you set in motion move on their own. That is part of why I wish there were more options to automate things because I find the emergent behaviour the most pleasant part. I also finished the peninsula, more or less.  Also can someone who know how train flag go please sanity check my signals? I'm trying to maximise occupancy of this station without jamming the junction and it may conceivably need to allow trains to reverse out of either end onto the mainline. Also I'm making it left hand drive because it is easier on my brain.  I absolutely hate train signaling because it's just complicated enough that I keep loving it up despite being made of allegedly simple components. I think however that this should allow trains to exit from both sides of the station in reverse, cross to the correct side, but that it should also prioritize trains on the mainline to pass the station first by holding trains on the platform until there is a large block gap on the mainline. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 04:00 on Jan 12, 2021 |
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Jan 12, 2021 01:12
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OwlFancier posted:
My train experience in this can so far charitably be called mixed, having said that your bypass isn't signalled LHD and unless the crossover is a slip junction I think it is currently unusable.
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Jan 12, 2021 03:57
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Wait sorry that's the wrong picture, I noticed that and fixed it and changed some other bits to hopefully add the holding mechanism. It's not just this btw I am just universally garbage at signals in any game that has trains and signals, factorio, OTTD, this, anything. Also not helped by the fact that I can barely see the difference between the green(?) and red(?) block colours. E: I... think it's working? Does the... light blue? colour on the chain signal mean it will let a train onto the other platform? 
OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 04:10 on Jan 12, 2021 |
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Jan 12, 2021 04:00
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OwlFancier posted:Wait sorry that's the wrong picture, I noticed that and fixed it and changed some other bits to hopefully add the holding mechanism. That looks right to me. I think the light blue signifies to the approaching train that only the one path is available. That's probably badly explained but it's 3.20am and I'm trashed.
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Jan 12, 2021 04:19
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Right grand cheers hopefully that will work OK. I actually built a seemingly decent station for once rather than the horrible abortions in the other cities because I wanted to jam the thing in the middle. The joys of having a large area to work with and laying the rail line first.
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Jan 12, 2021 04:21
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OwlFancier posted:Right grand cheers hopefully that will work OK. I actually built a seemingly decent station for once rather than the horrible abortions in the other cities because I wanted to jam the thing in the middle. This game really does emphasise getting good infrastructure planned out if not built early. I usually think I've planned pretty well at the start but after a few mid game mini crises it always ends up in an unwieldy mess for me. After trashing a previous save by trying to remodel the railway network and failing I had a couple of starts where I swore off using rail in favour of all road transport. Doing that is ultimately too limiting and rather than moving towards an integrated economy I found I was just setting up discrete towns for each industry function and a zillion distribution lines.
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Jan 12, 2021 04:30
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Yeah you can't shift cargo by truck fast enough, also I did manage to make commuter trains work even, by using modded buildings and feeder lines, still not sure it's worth the effort but eh, the railway is there now so I might as well, presumably it will become more desirable as I build more towns.. But at the very least I don't see how industry can be viable using just trucks, sometimes you just need to shift hundreds of tonnes of stuff at once and boats need rivers. Even stuff like distro centers seem to want you to build rail depots and warehouses to store the bulk and then the distro center handles the last mile. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 04:38 on Jan 12, 2021 |
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Jan 12, 2021 04:34
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Trucks become super untenable super quickly unless you go completely over the top with them. In my LP playthrough I'm only really just getting my trains running in a real way around 1973~5, and I've been spending millions on truck fleets to keep things rolling. On top of that, I wasn't yet producing my own fuel, and I was risking importing like 1.5 million of fuel (in one year) until I prioritized to make my own fuel. I am still basically running over 500 trucks and I still haven't become fully resource independent. Further this worked well because for 'roleplay' purposes I set up a lot of divided highways, which also help prevent trucks really getting choked up on roads at times. Still overkill for anything but roleplay, but occasionally helpful. That said, I still support setting up separate towns for industries and splitting things up more than having one big city, but that's a personal organizational preference. I don't think there's any functional difference. I've just noticed that I'm a lot happier with the game when I compartmentalize because fixing issues midgame this way is often a local problem instead of a systemic problem. I did plan ahead though, and I have some rail depots set up to move the large mass of goods somewhere locally, then distros that will eventually pull from those rail stops only a short distance to towns. Generally, industries get directly connect to the rail system, but the way my save has shaped up I haven't run into much of that beyond my steel mill thus far. I just need to connect the industries to get things to those depots instead of sending the trucks directly, but that's going to require a little retooling of the industries I've slapped down. On trains: Veloxyll wrote up a guide on signalling that was extremely helpful to me here: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3950400&pagenumber=4#post511076216 It also references this guide on steam, though you'll note he did find an error in the 2-2T junction: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1991851668 And there's an official guide from the devs for more simple, at least partially blocking intersections: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1718149719 Generally I like to avoid guides and fly by the seat of my pants, but I really couldn't even begin to understand rail signalling until I got into these few guides despite it seeming relatively simple in what each signal did. It was still a process to learn what I know now, though, and I still feel like I'm mostly stealing from others at times rather than truly understanding. A few tips I did learn: The 'regular' train depot's max train length is 150m, and the 'long' passenger or cargo platform is 75m. I try to make everything based around that. Also crucially Owlfancier, your stop that looks like this:  That's a design I have *always* had trouble with if trains can turn around/choose a platform via the X-crossover. I'm not exactly sure how or why it breaks because I've never caught it in the moment of breaking, only after the trains were stuck, but just beware. r I've started making stations like that connect to the trunk lines with a T intersection and make the other side of the station a loop around. Alternatively, make the station like that, but instead of flipping in station, lock them to a specific platform and give them a turnaround on the trunk line 'after' they depart the station. E: and re: train length, any trains much longer than your station won't be able to flip and then subsequently use the X-crossing, because the head of the train will be past the crossing. Anime Store Adventure fucked around with this message at 06:04 on Jan 12, 2021 |
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Jan 12, 2021 06:01
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Train length is something I have already had to fight with in the lovely terminator branch in another city, so yes I am aware to limit train length to the space between the crossings. But I don't think I will need longer trains than I can fit in there and if it can use two platforms at once (which I think it can) that should greatly increase throughput. If I do end up needing to use longer trains I will probably just tell them to go onward and then build a train roundabout or something for them to turn round on. I think I can fit four carriages and a loco so that should be plenty for the moment, and I'm limited to the very low horsepower sets anyway right now because the proper locos overload the power grid. I do technically know how chain signals work it's more just that my brain overheats trying to actually work out the logic of what they do when you have several of them. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 06:20 on Jan 12, 2021 |
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Jan 12, 2021 06:12
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If you're having trouble with signals and track designs looking up Factorio guides can be pretty helpful too because that game's signals work the same way afaik. Or at least they're close enough that it's what finally made trains click for me.
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Jan 12, 2021 11:57
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I have updated the 2nd post on Page 1 with stuff. Let me know if you think anything should be added.
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Jan 12, 2021 15:51
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By far and away the best advice I can give to anyone regarding trains is to give them way more space than you're anticipating you/they will need. Both in terms of length of track available, and also the space you leave for the physical placement of the track.
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Jan 12, 2021 16:33
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What is the mechanism for sustaining populations in towns? My established towns seem to refill buildings if I relocate people out of them, but my new towns do not seem super keen on spreading out from their residences. E: upon inspecting the city hall they do seem to slowly be having babies, guess the population level is just low and they won't migrate in from other towns that are full by rail or whatever. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 19:07 on Jan 12, 2021 |
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Jan 12, 2021 18:49
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OwlFancier posted:What is the mechanism for sustaining populations in towns? My established towns seem to refill buildings if I relocate people out of them, but my new towns do not seem super keen on spreading out from their residences. Maybe slightly related to population weirdness, especially if you're on the test branch: 0.8.3.17 -Decreased/slowed birthrate by 40% 0.8.3.18 -Birthrate was increased back by 20% 0.8.3.19 -Tweaked again the birthrate, tweaked on different place so to change should be more linear Not sure what the current non-test version is.
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Jan 12, 2021 19:22
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Are you streaming the game anytime Anime?
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Jan 12, 2021 19:57
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Mayveena posted:Are you streaming the game anytime Anime? I haven't been - I've only ever streamed for 1-2 friends on discord. I'd be willing to host a little discord stream party if there was interest, but I make no promises of quality or interest unless you really want to see how much I futz with stuff to get it looking nice and also work right. I personally don't think it would make for an interesting stream, but I'm not the one(s) who'd be watching this one so 
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Jan 12, 2021 20:51
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The birth rate is significantly in excess of the death rate and nobody has escaped so it's just low population and the fact that all the new people are babies at the moment. I guess they don't move into other houses until the current one is full, perhaps. And they also perhaps do not do it other than via walking distance. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 21:15 on Jan 12, 2021 |
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Jan 12, 2021 21:06
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OwlFancier posted:I guess they don't move into other houses until the current one is full, perhaps. And they also perhaps do not do it other than via walking distance. I have observed your first point and I think your second, though I had an incident where people were living again where I thought they shouldn’t be (an abandoned old town) - in all likelihood I just moved them late at night without thinking much and just forgot that I had done it the next day, though. Maybe it’s different with the new birthrate but I have never once been able to keep up with the breakneck pace of the population without quickly getting into overcrowding constantly. I really wish they handled going over your pop “cap” differently. I’d like to know if my escapes are true escapes or just capacity related emigrations. Sure I can usually figure this out by checking the pop of individual buildings and such but it’s inconvenient.
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Jan 12, 2021 21:34
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Is "escape" not just a euphemism for emigration? I haven't really been paying much concern to it. I also haven't noticed overcrowding, at least not to the point it seems to cause problems? Is there a problem with just letting a population sit without building new houses for a while?
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Jan 12, 2021 21:38
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OwlFancier posted:Is "escape" not just a euphemism for emigration? I haven't really been paying much concern to it. Some folks I think have noticed waves kind of building through deaths and repopulations but I don’t think it’s anything unlike you see when you first move a population in. Just kind of a second/third round of the same wave. It doesn’t seem like there’s any real downside right now. I only complain about the escapes thing because it would be useful to separate “happy, but no space to live” and “unhappy, leaving” at a glance so I know if I screwed up and forgot to give a village somewhere food without finding out an hour later when they’re all gone.
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Jan 12, 2021 21:50
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Can you sort of gauge it by the adults-living-with-parents graph? That seems the most important metric for pop cap anyway, since they are the ones most likely to leave and if they stay they aren't having replacement babies so they are very temporary sources of labor by any measure.
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Jan 12, 2021 21:59
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zedprime posted:Can you sort of gauge it by the adults-living-with-parents graph? That seems the most important metric for pop cap anyway, since they are the ones most likely to leave and if they stay they aren't having replacement babies so they are very temporary sources of labor by any measure. You absolutely can, and there information I want is there, it just comes something I have to sus out and I wish I didn’t have to.
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Jan 12, 2021 22:11
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Are there books or guides for actually city planning and designing? I always seem to bounce off these games. Like with city skylines once I need to redesign I just dont know how to fix for the massive traffic or do something better than mass roads. In this it seems I can never get enough people to the industries while still having the cities look natural with industry elsewhere.
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Jan 12, 2021 23:27
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That's it I'm not giving these fuckers cars any more they're liteally just getting in the car and driving it to the next loving car park over and getting out again.Anime Store Adventure posted:They do not, but the above design did work (though I used the refinery itself as the “intermediate” tank.) Coming back to this, pumping stations do seem to have a priority function as it happens. Same as conveor towers. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 20:26 on Jan 13, 2021 |
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Jan 13, 2021 01:13
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