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The Bloop posted:It really is, frankly. I agree with this
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Jan 14, 2021 16:15
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Popularity can be just as attributed to the fact that it is the thread several large subjects are relegated to (and nobody wants to bother make a new thread to compete with USPOL while the subject is still allowed there). The convenience of screaming into the void that is a thread that can accumulate 3000 posts in 2+ days often outweighs the potential value of having a place where decent debate can happen. It's the Wal-Mart of political discussion, complete with angry beligerents taking their shirts off for a tussle because someone looked at their Hell, I've been contemplating working on an OP for a Biden Administration thread with the current confidence that USPOL is going to become a Current Events thread, and finding the motivation to come up with something beyond "lol biden stuff, post here" can be a PITA even when you know its not going to get smothered by a megathread. Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 16:23 on Jan 14, 2021 |
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Jan 14, 2021 16:19
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Neurolimal posted:Popularity can be just as attributed to the fact that it is the thread several large subjects are relegated to (and nobody wants to bother make a new thread to compete with USPOL while the subject is still allowed there). The convenience of screaming into the void that is a thread that can accumulate 3000 posts in 2+ days often outweighs the potential value of having a place where decent debate can happen. It's the Wal-Mart of political discussion, complete with angry beligerents taking their shirts off for a tussle because someone looked at their This is true but I only cited popularity as a reason to have THIS thread discussing possible improvements. My claim that USPol is pretty good as-is has nothing to do with that. Making specific threads for no-poo poo slow, deep discussion of issues is a good thing and you shouldn't (in my opinion) back away from doing it because of what you imagine might happen because another thread exists. If anything, exactly the sort of people you don't want in your thread will have someplace else to be.
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Jan 14, 2021 16:37
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Main Paineframe posted:I just wanna be clear that "the current status quo, but with more moderator activity" is not an option here, because the current status quo is literally unmanageable, and that puts a significant damper on the ability of moderators to be involved. We literally doubled the number of people who had buttons in this forum and it didn't change a thing. USPol needs meaningful change. The question now isn't whether it should change, but how exactly the change should be carried out. The mods aren't asking, "do we need to make changes in USPOL?" They're asking, "what suggestions do people have for changes that we are going to implement before the current mod team burns out?"
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Jan 14, 2021 17:25
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I don't understand the position that useless white noise spam isn't an issue when part of why the mods are having difficulty is the sheer volume of posts. If the "real issue" is only one or two posters that each individual has identified for themself, you've already got an easy solution. Just think of your ignore list as an informal poll of users you think should be banned from the thread.
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Jan 14, 2021 17:59
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Maybe we shouldn't encourage people posting just to scream into the void? I don't know how to stop that, but it would good to encourage people to post productively.
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Jan 14, 2021 18:16
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Harold Fjord posted:I don't understand the position that useless white noise spam isn't an issue when part of why the mods are having difficulty is the sheer volume of posts. If the "real issue" is only one or two posters that each individual has identified for themself, you've already got an easy solution. The sheer volume of reports more than the sheer volume of posts. I doubt the white noise posts are generating most of these reports. If they are, maybe I'd be more inclined to agree with you though! Also, as has been mentioned multiple times, white noise posts are almost always incredibly brief and temporary... unless they are white noise posts posted with the intent to enflame. Also, the ignore list accomplishes exactly jack and poo poo in relation to the actual problems caused by bad posting and I'm not sure what benefit you think it offers, exactly. The problem is not "I have to read posts by people I don't like/disagree with", and if you think it is after everyone has explicitly said otherwise multiple times, I honestly have no idea what to do about that.
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Jan 14, 2021 18:40
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I agree that my proposed solution does not solve every complaint made itt, but it might help specific posters. For example, the ones very concerned that they might have to read arguments from the "I'm here to argue" poster in the argument and discussion subforum might find that it meets their needs. No one is allegedly worried about ideology, just a few specific bad actors. The smaller the number of bad actors you are concerned about, the more likely the ignore list is to help I would think. Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 18:51 on Jan 14, 2021 |
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Jan 14, 2021 18:48
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ElegantFugue posted:The mods aren't asking, "do we need to make changes in USPOL?" They're asking, "what suggestions do people have for changes that we are going to implement before the current mod team burns out?" Yeah I really don't get "USPol is fine" as a response to the moderation team calling it D&D's Afghanistan with specific examples of why it's bad. It's not fine.
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Jan 14, 2021 18:56
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It's mostly fine and it seems like the 15% or so that's not fine is emanating from a handful of people and therefore pretty easily solved by putting them in timeout That is unless you (whoever) thinks the issue that that it moves too fast or conversation isn't in-depth enough but I submit that those are silly complaints because of course a catch-all thread for all of American politics is going to have a lot of fast moving surface level discussion, that's absolutely and immutably linked to what kind of thing it is. Slow in-depth rigorous debate needs narrower thread topics, as always, but that isn't an argument for getting rid of the catch-all thread, they serve different purposes and even different (but overlapping) audiences
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Jan 14, 2021 19:39
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Slow mode would sure help USPol right now. There's been about 10 pages of pointless bickering about stimulus checks, which has drowned out the bits of actual news that have drifted by.
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Jan 14, 2021 19:41
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Deteriorata posted:Slow mode would sure help USPol right now. There's been about 10 pages of pointless bickering about stimulus checks, which has drowned out the bits of actual news that have drifted by. Yeah its been pretty bad the last few hours.
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Jan 14, 2021 20:03
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I feel like the last week showed the basic thing: when there was a lot of ongoing news the thread was really good actually. then when it slowed down it started to eat itself and became real bad.
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Jan 14, 2021 20:28
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Deteriorata posted:Slow mode would sure help USPol right now. There's been about 10 pages of pointless bickering about stimulus checks, which has drowned out the bits of actual news that have drifted by. The answer is for an IK to tell people to cut it out (that's kind of the purpose of IKs for individual threads isn't it?) and probate those who continue to argue after the warning, not to slow the whole thread down at least IMO also it appears to be a D&D-wide thing which is annoying
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Jan 14, 2021 20:29
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Youth Decay posted:The answer is for an IK to tell people to cut it out (that's kind of the purpose of IKs for individual threads isn't it?) and probate those who continue to argue after the warning, not to slow the whole thread down But an IK is one of the main pushers of the argument.
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Jan 14, 2021 20:30
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socialsecurity posted:But an IK is one of the main pushers of the argument. You'll also notice that the person with 170+ probations who has been pushing the slapfight is simultaneously posting in the succthread about the shitlibs in dnd defending biden. Again. Because this happens constantly, despite the repeat claims that mods there will crack down on brigading of dnd.
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Jan 14, 2021 20:38
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It's definitely time for a CHECKS thread
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Jan 14, 2021 20:47
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eke out posted:You'll also notice that the person with 170+ probations who has been pushing the slapfight is simultaneously posting in the succthread about the shitlibs in dnd defending biden. but they make good posts elsewhere
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Jan 14, 2021 20:49
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I think the discussion about the stimulus checks was pretty relevant to US Politics and no one got that heated over it, and the thread wasn't going at breaking news pace, so I'm not really sure what the hell else folks could want at this point who are complaining about it. I've got half a mind to go slap everyone who complained in USPOL about it or said to bring back train chat with a sixer, because those posts were numerous and had those folks just scrolled past the thread would have moved even more slowly. By all means report rule breaking posts and pm a mod or IK if you want to give direct feedback or whatever but I just went through the last 400 posts and it's a lot of debate and discussion in debate and discussion: the subforum for debating and discussing things, and I don't really see the problem. If you think something else more pertinent should be the focus of current discussion, feel free to be the change you want to see and post about it. e: please don't get in a huff about me lightly joking about throwing probes out, I'm not actually going to do that.
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Jan 14, 2021 22:35
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Aruan posted:Maybe we shouldn't encourage people posting just to scream into the void? I don't know how to stop that, but it would good to encourage people to post productively. Slightly off topic but I think nihilism really ought to be discouraged, probatable and enforced more often given the importance and sensitivity of topics discussed. That said, while I still strongly believe the above I think the community overall has gotten much better at this over the last year even in the US Pol Thread but that's only my 2 cents. YMMV. Edit - Why are we still talking about checks. 
Gucci Loafers fucked around with this message at 07:10 on Jan 15, 2021 |
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Jan 15, 2021 06:12
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Gabriel S. posted:Slightly off topic but I think nihilism really ought to be discouraged, probatable and enforced more often given the importance and sensitivity of topics discussed. why, it doesnt matter anyway
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Jan 15, 2021 06:31
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awesmoe posted:why, it doesnt matter anyway Heh. Touche.
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Jan 15, 2021 06:44
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Harold Fjord posted:I agree that my proposed solution does not solve every complaint made itt, but it might help specific posters. For example, the ones very concerned that they might have to read arguments from the "I'm here to argue" poster in the argument and discussion subforum might find that it meets their needs. I mean yeah, ignore me or anyone else if you can't read their posts without getting pissed off. This really isn't difficult. I don't use ignore or reporting for that matter because I don't need enforced silence to get the last word but it seems an useful tool for those who do.
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Jan 15, 2021 13:15
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DarkCrawler posted:I mean yeah, ignore me or anyone else if you can't read their posts without getting pissed off. This really isn't difficult. I don't use ignore or reporting for that matter because I don't need enforced silence to get the last word but it seems an useful tool for those who do. Same, but with less passive-aggressiveness Not none, just less Seriously though, if you keep getting probed because you can't help but get baited into terrible behavior, and you can't learn to control yourself, and you refuse to just ignore-list certain people that wind you up (as a reminder if nothing else) then not being allowed to post in the thread, at least for a while, seems likea reasonable natural consequence for that. Like, nothing personal bub, but this thread just ain't for you
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Jan 15, 2021 13:23
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The Bloop posted:Same, but with less passive-aggressiveness Eh, I don't think answering like with like counts as baiting when I relish it. The fact that these people are unable to deal with whatever fact is being presented and have to resort into tearful personal insults is basically a victory in my book. And again, I don't have a problem with enforcement of rules. Just the selected enforcement. I haven't even complained about a single probe, except in this thread. Entirely deserved.
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Jan 15, 2021 15:13
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Not specifically partition-related, but it would be cool if there was a reserved post at the top of each page for temporary thread rules (e.g., 'Stop talking about checks'.). It's easy for posters* to reply to an earlier comment before coming across a new rule later on in the thread. I rarely if ever post in US Pol but I've seen this issue in the past with people eating probes over a new rule they missed that was buried in the middle of page 576 or something. *(me) Eason the Fifth fucked around with this message at 15:41 on Jan 15, 2021 |
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Jan 15, 2021 15:39
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Eason the Fifth posted:Not specifically partition-related, but it would be cool if there was a reserved post at the top of each page for temporary thread rules (e.g., 'Stop talking about checks'.). It's easy for posters* to reply to an earlier comment before coming across a new rule later on in the thread. Also this, I genuinely miss some stuff you are not supposed to talk about.
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Jan 15, 2021 16:15
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A stickied post or thread announcement type thing would be good, but might be low on the priority list for the tech person's.
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Jan 15, 2021 16:17
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Thread Polls show up on every page in a super prominent way. It's a little doofy conceptually, but it'd be a way to put the rules on every single page with no additional coding. Just use the poll options to make a bulleted list of rules. I know it's possible for mods to edit polls because I know they've done it for jokes, if it's something that is easy to do then mods could use that to update rules. Or the thread could just get remade regularly and have the rules update as needed on each new thread creation. (actually, can the OP edit polls? I've never made a poll) Owlofcreamcheese fucked around with this message at 16:40 on Jan 15, 2021 |
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Jan 15, 2021 16:38
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Thread Polls show up on every page in a super prominent way.
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Jan 15, 2021 16:47
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Harold Fjord posted:A stickied post or thread announcement type thing would be good, but might be low on the priority list for the tech person's. I think Lowtax did something vey similar to this with AdBot about a billion years ago. I don't know poo poo about coding though (especially radium's SA code, which by all accounts is the Wreck of the Hesperus) so I don't know how hard it would be to reimplement.
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Jan 15, 2021 17:02
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D&D>USPol: don't talk about fight club.. Or the primary
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Jan 15, 2021 18:10
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Eason the Fifth posted:I think Lowtax did something vey similar to this with AdBot about a billion years ago. I don't know poo poo about coding though (especially radium's SA code, which by all accounts is the Wreck of the Hesperus) so I don't know how hard it would be to reimplement. Oh poo poo, I remember Ad Bot. That code has to be rattling around in the tubes somewhere still, right?
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Jan 15, 2021 19:23
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Genuinely asking: is there a place to discuss politics without debating, pot shots, embarrassing screeds about how a poster is acting in bad faith? To USPol’s credit, whenever I ask a question or wonder why the left is taking X position on something, I get a ton of good answers rather quickly. Just...that thread is kinda embarrassing to read at any other time. It’s entirely possible that what I’m asking would turn into some awful redditesque echo chamber which would also be unreadable in its own way. 
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Jan 15, 2021 23:16
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buglord posted:Genuinely asking: is there a place to discuss politics without debating, pot shots, embarrassing screeds about how a poster is acting in bad faith? To USPol’s credit, whenever I ask a question or wonder why the left is taking X position on something, I get a ton of good answers rather quickly. Just...that thread is kinda embarrassing to read at any other time. Is there a place for political discussion where pot shots, posting about posters, and the generally unhinged rhetoric that semi-regularly accompanies disagreement in USPol? I mean, it's ostensibly USPol. I don't envy the mods, the bulk of lovely posting is in response to other lovely posting and simply enforcing the rules as they're written is... not simple. One issue I've noticed and not seen mentioned much is that generally and across the ideological spectrum: If your posting is generating more light than heat, you get a lot of leeway for being lovely. Even if, like my posting, it's :effortful: but tedious and of marginal value. I do wonder if one of the impending spinoffs should be basically USPOL with zero tolerance for posting about posters (either directly or behind a thin veil of posting team jersey). My recollection of Trumpthread+UsPol+Thunderdome has me fairly confident that it'll either end up a littletrafficked stepchild (as USPOL was in that era, though for the opposite reason) or it'll be popular and, like the Trump thread of its time, any attempts to enforce the simple rule will be proof of a biased modding cabal. fool of sound posted:OK, so with feedback, here's where I'm at right now: I'd recommend a refresh of those two, and then congress, a healthcare reform reboot, education policy, foreign policy, police reform, and the social safety net. Maybe a thread where interested posters can submit OPs, winning posts receiving a fabulous prize (plat, or for way more fun, a no questions asked one week probe of the USPOL poster of your choice. Anyone who'd object to bearing a small sacrifice has no place in our new utopia)
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Jan 16, 2021 03:54
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Some of the recurring derails should get threads. I get that USPOL isn't the place to talk about what pizza is the best or the proper way to make chili, but honestly it's something that can be debated and discussed. It might be nice to have some threads that are lower stakes where people can have a little bit of fun.
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Jan 16, 2021 19:40
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A GIANT PARSNIP posted:Some of the recurring derails should get threads. I get that USPOL isn't the place to talk about what pizza is the best or the proper way to make chili, but honestly it's something that can be debated and discussed. It might be nice to have some threads that are lower stakes where people can have a little bit of fun. The food derails help relieve some tension from the thread and remind everyone we are humans, they aren't the problem.
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Jan 16, 2021 22:57
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Here's a very obvious example of rules being applied unevenly and in bad faith, from today. A poster made the following post: quote:Biden is definitely sundowning. That's it. Zero effort. Literally four words. After several posters responded with "no he doesn't", Majorian immediately clamped down: Majorian posted:Let's leave the takes on whether or not Biden is sundowning to the gerontologists and cognitive therapists and whoever else is qualified to make that call. That goes for everyone. Why wasn't the original poster given at least a sixer? Could it be because they identify as a leftist? I know their post was reported, but it's very interesting that Majorian himself did not give a sixer and queue something longer, as is the usual practice for these types of posts. The reason this is important to bring up is because he frequently demands evidence and effort when it comes to positive things said about Biden, such as whether Biden can be trusted when he says he will do <good thing>. But if it's a criticism of Biden, he just plays the "both sides" card and pretends he's the adult breaking up a fight amongst children.
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Jan 16, 2021 23:35
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Yeah happens nonstop not even news anymore, this morning someone started the 1400 vs 2000 slapfight that Majoran specifically said to stop talking about again, then a few posts later someone posted why some people they know seem to wear note voting for Biden a badge of honor. Guess which one got pounced on by Majoran?
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Jan 16, 2021 23:42
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This thread will be closing Tuesday, two weeks after it opened. This is our current plan of action: ---reboot uspol as usnews, changing the focus from the news and the US political system as a whole to just the former. add a directory of in-depth topic threads to the OP. ---guide repeat or lengthy discussions or arguments out of usnews and to their own threads. start with slow mode off but turn it on if this proves difficult or if the thread serially tvivs. Ramp and remove posters who don't seem to get the message. ---make a "new d&d thread" thread, clarify that experimental, short term, or breaking news thread don't necessarily require high effort ops. Possibly reward posters who do make high effort ops with av changes or gang tags or something. Is there anything else that people think needs to happen with regard to USpol, usnews, or future offshoots?
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Jan 17, 2021 00:38
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