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Dreddout posted:The only "yeomen" left are bourgeois who own small hold farms as either vanirty projects or component of their larger business. it's probably different now but post civil war farmers in the northeast and midwest were republican and were democrats in the south and west. it probably has to do with when the farms were established; new england apple orchards had been profitable for 150 years while new farms out west were drowning in debt so they probably disagreed on monetary policy, the big issue of the time
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Jan 15, 2021 19:24
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AnEdgelord posted:Listening to Matt Christmans Vlog and his discussion about how the US's Yeoman farmers were proletarianized and even peasantized. It makes me wonder if the Yeoman tradition of the US might make it fertile ground for some sort of Land Reform movement. Such movements are common in Latin America and the US itself has flirted with such ideas during Reconstruction and in the short-lived Georgist movement. Perhaps I'm being naïve but I wanted to bounce off the idea off this thread to see if there was anything too it or if I'm missing something crucial. one of the main designers and implementers of the marshal plan in Europe was a life long Georgist, i thought that was kinda cool.
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Jan 15, 2021 19:28
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GalacticAcid posted:Farm laborers in the US are, conservatively, about 50% undocumented immigrants. Number is likely closer to 75%. I don’t think the country’s yeoman ideal has anything at all to do with current reality, to be honest, besides serving an ideological function everybody wanna be a farmer but nobody wanna be a farmer
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Jan 15, 2021 19:29
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being a farmhand like we use immigrant labor for on the strawberry fields is insanely fail, and there's a reason only the desperate do it. bent over all day picking loving berries, and getting paid jack poo poo. it's manual labor of the worst kind
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Jan 15, 2021 19:32
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we have all the technology and resources to automate 99% of farming. the reason why migrant immigrant farm labor is still a thing is because they can pay them nothing and get away with it. also we should put insanely high tarrifs on fruit because the vast majority of it that is imported is basically blood diamonds with the amount of suffering that makes those imports possible
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Jan 15, 2021 19:35
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yeah. which is why ufw was so hugely popular here lol.
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Jan 15, 2021 19:39
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the united fruit company is looking forward to a bright future in the orbit of elon musks space
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Jan 15, 2021 19:41
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having done it some during as a kid in the summers, a lot of it cant be automated. i dont really know how you could have a machine harvest a field of watemelons effectively. that being said, farm laborers are for the most part slave labor and its pretty common every year to see farmers charged with stuff like peonage for how they treat the workers
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Jan 15, 2021 19:41
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apropos to nothing posted:i dont really know how you could have a machine harvest a field of watemelons effectively. just use one of those dancing robots
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Jan 15, 2021 19:54
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apropos to nothing posted:having done it some during as a kid in the summers, a lot of it cant be automated. i dont really know how you could have a machine harvest a field of watemelons effectively. that being said, farm laborers are for the most part slave labor and its pretty common every year to see farmers charged with stuff like peonage for how they treat the workers i suspect that it could be done, and would rapidly be if they had to actually pay these people $15/hr like they do burger flippers and other such professions. or maybe i'm wrong. maybe not automated exactly, but more heavily mechanized than it is. for sure society should find something better for so many people to do than kill their backs producing what is ultimately luxury fruit. the tree-based kind is a lot less labor intensive im told.
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Jan 15, 2021 20:03
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Larry Parrish posted:i suspect that it could be done, and would rapidly be if they had to actually pay these people $15/hr like they do burger flippers and other such professions. or maybe i'm wrong. maybe not automated exactly, but more heavily mechanized than it is. for sure society should find something better for so many people to do than kill their backs producing what is ultimately luxury fruit. the tree-based kind is a lot less labor intensive im told. yeah they just have a big machine grab the tree and shake it a bunch til all the fruit falls out
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Jan 15, 2021 20:05
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be sure to wear gloves because you can get pinworms through your fingers
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Jan 15, 2021 20:07
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the local tree farms have developed the incredible 'let tourists pay to pick the apples' technique, which is even cheaper than that
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Jan 15, 2021 20:07
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apropos to nothing posted:having done it some during as a kid in the summers, a lot of it cant be automated. i dont really know how you could have a machine harvest a field of watemelons effectively. that being said, farm laborers are for the most part slave labor and its pretty common every year to see farmers charged with stuff like peonage for how they treat the workers if you had to pay your workers like 20 dollars an hour or more we'd have 5 designs for melon farms run by robots inside of the economic quarter
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Jan 15, 2021 20:08
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i wonder what numtot car bad people will think about cars after the us has an up to the mountains down to the countryside push. i know a lot of goons will basically perish
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Jan 15, 2021 20:09
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the anti-car people here make no loving sense to me lol. like, what, you're gonna move everyone out of the agricultural areas? why? you can also tell they've never needed a pickup truck for anything because 'no private cars' is a laughable concept if you've ever had to deal with things like wood fired heating or just living outside of an apartment in general i mean people shouldn't commute in them, and not everyone needs one, but they shouldn't be banned and destroyed like some people suggest lol
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Jan 15, 2021 20:22
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Larry Parrish posted:the anti-car people here make no loving sense to me lol. like, what, you're gonna move everyone out of the agricultural areas? why? you can also tell they've never needed a pickup truck for anything because 'no private cars' is a laughable concept if you've ever had to deal with things like wood fired heating or just living outside of an apartment in general They're naive about rural transit, and you're naive about how utterly destructive car transit and infrastructure is.
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Jan 15, 2021 20:25
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apropos to nothing posted:having done it some during as a kid in the summers, a lot of it cant be automated. i dont really know how you could have a machine harvest a field of watemelons effectively. that being said, farm laborers are for the most part slave labor and its pretty common every year to see farmers charged with stuff like peonage for how they treat the workers this is also a great point from socialist thinkers on agriculture: latifundia-scale collectives with top notch infrastructure would still require a lot of labor that, properly organized, would be massive in employment an idea that crossed my mind to avoid kulakization (or gentry agriculture or any other form of the matter) was to refine the cooperative model into a stewardship one. Essentially, the land being a common good to society, those who work are entitled to its use and benefit as stewards of such, not as proprietors. Like, if consciousness can be honed and developed from labor, then people working in "our" land is very different than working in "my" land, so to speak besides the ideological effect, the practical one is a much higher degree of labor density and capital to the development of agriculture thanks to state planning and organization as above
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Jan 15, 2021 20:25
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Larry Parrish posted:the anti-car people here make no loving sense to me lol. like, what, you're gonna move everyone out of the agricultural areas? why? you can also tell they've never needed a pickup truck for anything because 'no private cars' is a laughable concept if you've ever had to deal with things like wood fired heating or just living outside of an apartment in general So you understand exactly what people mean when they say cars are bad, but something else that nobody says is a laughable concept. Seems like everyone's in agreement.
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Jan 15, 2021 20:27
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Larry Parrish posted:the anti-car people here make no loving sense to me lol. like, what, you're gonna move everyone out of the agricultural areas? why? you can also tell they've never needed a pickup truck for anything because 'no private cars' is a laughable concept if you've ever had to deal with things like wood fired heating or just living outside of an apartment in general just remake cities like the soviets did so that the only time you actually needed to use a car was when you went on a trip somewhere decently far away
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Jan 15, 2021 20:31
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Notorious R.I.M. posted:They're naive about rural transit, and you're naive about how utterly destructive car transit and infrastructure is. you know i can see the inversion layer above the central valley from my house on clear days, right
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Jan 15, 2021 20:32
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Larry Parrish posted:you know i can see the inversion layer above the central valley from my house on clear days, right i drove into the valley to visit my parents and it suddenly hit me that one use to be able to see the mountains of yosemite from modesto back in the 90s
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Jan 15, 2021 20:35
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 who is buying multiple copies
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Jan 15, 2021 20:38
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a lot of industrial farm practices are going to have to change too, especially concerning water usage and soil regeneration. exactly how well these scale up to industrial levels has yet to be seen but it's necessary to keep most people fed. really profit motive needs to be driven out of the entire agriculture altogether instead of the patchwork nightmare of subsidies that is the current system in both the United States, Canada and most of Europe. Cheap food is one of the key components of the modern neoliberal economy, and if that ever goes out the window we're going to see some serious poo poo also you're never going to get rid of cars in rural areas or electrify everything. there just aren't electric batteries that can power a combine, full stop.
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Jan 15, 2021 20:40
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Raskolnikov38 posted:i drove into the valley to visit my parents and it suddenly hit me that one use to be able to see the mountains of yosemite from modesto back in the 90s you can still see the coastal range, mt diablo etc from the sierra nevada if you're high enough but you have to be above 3k elevation otherwise all you see is a gray smear lol
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Jan 15, 2021 20:48
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a little known fact for out of state people who know about la's famous smog layer is its actually the entire state that has that going on
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Jan 15, 2021 20:49
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indigi posted:
classic stocking stuffer bundle
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Jan 15, 2021 20:53
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Larry Parrish posted:the anti-car people here make no loving sense to me lol. like, what, you're gonna move everyone out of the agricultural areas? why? you can also tell they've never needed a pickup truck for anything because 'no private cars' is a laughable concept if you've ever had to deal with things like wood fired heating or just living outside of an apartment in general
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Jan 16, 2021 03:45
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Dreylad posted:a lot of industrial farm practices are going to have to change too, especially concerning water usage and soil regeneration. exactly how well these scale up to industrial levels has yet to be seen but it's necessary to keep most people fed. vertical farms seem sick... i'm sure there's some depressing reason they're not scalable tho 
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Jan 16, 2021 04:14
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Larry Parrish posted:the anti-car people here make no loving sense to me lol. like, what, you're gonna move everyone out of the agricultural areas? why? you can also tell they've never needed a pickup truck for anything because 'no private cars' is a laughable concept if you've ever had to deal with things like wood fired heating or just living outside of an apartment in general I think it's also a thing in many urban core areas, where minority kids think that country guy driving a pick up truck means "cracker demon". Like there's a visceral response to that kind of person that takes seeing to believe. And most of these people grew up working class too, like immigrant factory workers and the like. It's a conundrum that I'm at a loss about. How exactly do you bridge the gap between the White and Non-White Proletariat?
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Jan 16, 2021 04:14
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exmarx posted:vertical farms seem sick... i'm sure there's some depressing reason they're not scalable tho It strikes me as more efficient to stack the people on top of each other and reclaim the suburbs for farmland instead of trying to build tall farms.
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Jan 16, 2021 04:35
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Warmachine posted:It strikes me as more efficient to stack the people on top of each other and reclaim the suburbs for farmland instead of trying to build tall farms. creating more farmland doesn't resolve the environmental issues caused by industrial farming, which i was responding to. here's the dream tho 
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Jan 16, 2021 05:29
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unrelated, bifo (👑) on the kkkapitol riotquote:What happened on January 6 in Washington was not an insurrection nor a true coup d’état. It was an episode, simultaneously farcical and criminal, in the American civil war between white nationalism and liberal globalism. Both the globalists and the nationalists are expressions of American capitalist supremacy. This civil war is going to endure and expand, and—luckily for humankind—it will consume American potency. https://www.e-flux.com/announcements/371876/bifo-on-the-us-capitol-riots/
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Jan 16, 2021 05:44
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exmarx posted:vertical farms seem sick... i'm sure there's some depressing reason they're not scalable tho water is heavy and making enough of it go up to provide for plants is tricky, getting plants the light they need has been solved, it's mostly just agriculture has very low returns so using space set aside for high rise buildings for it probably won't happen under a returns/profit prioritized system because that "garden skyscraper" could be luxury apartments/condo investment vehicles.
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Jan 16, 2021 05:48
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exmarx posted:vertical farms seem sick... i'm sure there's some depressing reason they're not scalable tho No way to turn a profit with the current costs of to operate it, and traditional farming consumes about 20% of the energy required for vertical farming. Warmachine posted:It strikes me as more efficient to stack the people on top of each other and reclaim the suburbs for farmland instead of trying to build tall farms. Can't just reclaim land and immediately put it into cultivation. Unless you're going to just infuse it with fertilizer which is its own unsustainable problem, you'll need at least a few years of regenerative farming to get it into production. And that's if the soil is half decent -- most suburb divisions scrape off the top soil, bag it, sell it to Home Depot or wherever, and put down lovely fill. What most people don't get is soil is part of an ecology, and good soil is a product of the organic material interacting with various systems under and above ground and not something you can just simply pack up and move. Not to say you were arguing for any of this, just want to clarify in case anyone was curious about any of this. Dreylad fucked around with this message at 06:00 on Jan 16, 2021 |
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Jan 16, 2021 05:56
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I want Tall Farm not Expansive Farm tbh.
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Jan 16, 2021 06:26
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Dreylad posted:No way to turn a profit with the current costs of to operate it, and traditional farming consumes about 20% of the energy required for vertical farming. Yeah, it's more of a "I don't see how it's more efficient, either ecologically or Lady Militant posted:water is heavy and making enough of it go up to provide for plants is tricky, getting plants the light they need has been solved, it's mostly just agriculture has very low returns so using space set aside for high rise buildings for it probably won't happen under a returns/profit prioritized system because that "garden skyscraper" could be luxury apartments/condo investment vehicles. Only replace luxury condos with public housing. edit: replacing monetarily with materially because the former is really just shorthand for the latter. it's concrete not dollars that matters.
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Jan 16, 2021 07:06
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comedyblissoption posted:anti-car is about mass transit not rural agricultural areas lol i made the mistake of talking about outside thread takes. some of the lib retards really did suggest only having skeleton crews on the farms and everyone else shoved into an urban center lol
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Jan 16, 2021 07:57
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exmarx posted:creating more farmland doesn't resolve the environmental issues caused by industrial farming, which i was responding to. there’s a netflix version of this that it “regenerative agriculture”
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Jan 16, 2021 08:19
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Larry Parrish posted:being a farmhand like we use immigrant labor for on the strawberry fields is insanely fail, and there's a reason only the desperate do it. bent over all day picking loving berries, and getting paid jack poo poo. it's manual labor of the worst kind It sucks. My government is complicit in this bs because if you come here on a working holiday visa and want to stay longer, you have to spend a summer picking good and getting exploited on some remote farm. Some of the migrant workers are sexually abused, they 1might have documents like passports confiscated, they might have their phones confiscated, they're not paid a fair wage or have wages withheld, they sometimes have pay withheld for unnegotiates accommodation expenses.. and they virtually no recourse. Some of our farmers should quite seriously be prosecuted for breaking anti-slavery laws (which do exist, but are seldom used).
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Jan 16, 2021 09:21
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