Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
Opioid
Jul 3, 2008

<3 Blood Type ARRRRR

SkyeAuroline posted:

Checking back in several weeks later. Work might fund a cheaper Kinesis after all, the idea's kind of been floated with my boss but we're both in a sort of "this is a lot of fuckin' money for something that may not actually help" scenario. For the one place that it would definitely help, a tangential/band-aid-fix question until a new keyboard actually happens:

How the hell do you keep straight wrists with a full-size keyboard while still having a reasonably accessible mouse? I can get a perfect lineup for left hand & mouse, or a mostly fine one for both hands on the keyboard, but putting the mouse in the equation means tradeoffs that just don't have solutions without new hardware. Either the mouse is way the hell off to the side (hello shoulder and elbow issues, the latter of which I really don't need to be any worse than they already are) or, as is the current situation, the right hand has to come way the hell over and bend right, causing even more ulnar nerve issues than I've already got further up the arm. Complicating things with the actual hardware replacement option is that we work on 35-year-old software that expects numpads and consequently has its (non-rebindable) inputs set up for them, so even with a split keyboard it then becomes "where do I put this fourth I/O component".

I wish there was an actual ergo thread (in any of the subforums - you'd think TGD would be a perfect place for it) to float all my questions in one block but this at least is a keyboard-related one.

If you really want to get deep into keyboard ergo...

https://geekhack.org/index.php?board=125.0

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

DirtyRobot
Dec 15, 2003

it was a normally happy sunny day... but Dirty Robot was dirty

Cheese Thief posted:


That's the back. Unicomp has a newer version than this 2018 one !? I looked at it on the site and that looks exactly like mine, not sure if it would really be better.
I have a beige Model-M unicomp from 2010, but I don't know where I put it, looking for it right now.
I like the buckling springs for music programming, it feels good to control synths with it in like a Fast Tracker II type software, Renoise, whatever.
Do you know where to get some cool colorful keycaps?

Yeah, they have a keyboard literally just called the “New Model M” that, per reviews, improves on the older models that were relying on very old moulds. But apparently they sell like no beige keyboards (I think this might be because a huge chunk of their sales are to businesses?) so the “New Model M” model has no beige version, and might never :(

Unicomp will do colour key caps (though colour options are nothing like wasd or something), even custom printed. They just don’t advertise it on the site. Example (and lovely story): https://www.reddit.com/r/modelm/comments/g205gw/unicomp_custom_keys_lovely_quality_service_and/

Buttons link: https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/category/Buttons

If you open a ticket they’ll answer questions for any weird stuff that is not on their website.

TheFluff
Dec 13, 2006

FRIENDS, LISTEN TO ME
I AM A SEAGULL
OF WEALTH AND TASTE
Got myself a Hexgears Impulse, have had it for a few days now and figured I'd post my thoughts. Kailh box whites are pretty good, as it turns out. The tactility is a bit weaker than I'd like but the tactile break is nice and crisp and for gaming in particular I find I don't mind that they're light. They sound rather high pitched compared to the heavy clacking of the orange Alps in my old AEK, but it's not too bad, and certainly better than anything Cherry I've ever heard. For typing I prefer the AEK but it's a bit too heavy and slow for gaming. The space bar is rather obnoxiously loud on the upstroke though. Since it is hotswap I might order some jades later and try those out to see how they feel.

The board itself is fine, seems well built enough. I like the feet and the rubber pads. The RGB is very RGB, as expected. I'm not really a fan of the pudding keycap look but with the RGB backlight turned on it does look very RGB, at least. The keycaps do feel good though, with very nice texturing on the faces, and they're PBT so it should last. At least I have MX compatible mounts now so new keycaps aren't unobtainium if I want to swap them out.

I paid $100 plus shipping, and at that price I consider this pretty much a steal. It's the price of a random rear end gaming keyboard I could pick up in a local store with MX reds or whatever, but it's got every feature I could wish for - nice PBT keycaps, RGB everything (without software control), hotswappable switches, and it comes with good ones too rather than the usual MX and MX clone junk. The GMMK starts at $125 but you don't get PBT keycaps on it. Very happy with it so far.

TheFluff fucked around with this message at 03:25 on Jan 17, 2021

AbsoluteLlama
Aug 15, 2009

By the power vested in me by random musings in tmt... I proclaim you guilty of crustophilia!

SkyeAuroline posted:

Checking back in several weeks later. Work might fund a cheaper Kinesis after all, the idea's kind of been floated with my boss but we're both in a sort of "this is a lot of fuckin' money for something that may not actually help" scenario. For the one place that it would definitely help, a tangential/band-aid-fix question until a new keyboard actually happens:

How the hell do you keep straight wrists with a full-size keyboard while still having a reasonably accessible mouse? I can get a perfect lineup for left hand & mouse, or a mostly fine one for both hands on the keyboard, but putting the mouse in the equation means tradeoffs that just don't have solutions without new hardware. Either the mouse is way the hell off to the side (hello shoulder and elbow issues, the latter of which I really don't need to be any worse than they already are) or, as is the current situation, the right hand has to come way the hell over and bend right, causing even more ulnar nerve issues than I've already got further up the arm. Complicating things with the actual hardware replacement option is that we work on 35-year-old software that expects numpads and consequently has its (non-rebindable) inputs set up for them, so even with a split keyboard it then becomes "where do I put this fourth I/O component".

I wish there was an actual ergo thread (in any of the subforums - you'd think TGD would be a perfect place for it) to float all my questions in one block but this at least is a keyboard-related one.

I don't really have a great answer for the mouse. Mice will always suck. You can try left-handed, especially if using a full size board with a numpad on the right. I tend to swap my mouse around throughout the day from left, right, and center, but have mostly just removed mouse usage drastically from my day-to-day work.

For the numpad: if you have a programmable board you can just setup any of the keys to output numpad keys, perhaps on a layer. For example, I use a BEAKL 15 numpad on my raise layer



But you can just setup commonly-used keys wherever you want. Just mentioning since 'custom software that cannot rebind keys' screams having a programmable board.

I know money is a problem but there are 'cheap' options if you can DIY soldering. Anything from https://www.gboards.ca/ is good. If you want something more like a traditional board, then https://keeb.io/ has some great options like Sinc and Quefrency. The Iris is also a common starter split. All in they are all going to cost ~100-150USD + soldering supplies if you don't already have that, but they would easily be 200-400+ USD boards pre-assembled. You may be able to get a deal from someone with extra kits or boards on r/mechmarket.

AbsoluteLlama fucked around with this message at 03:47 on Jan 17, 2021

SkyeAuroline
Nov 12, 2020

Unfortunately by the time I get soldering supplies and make it safe to work in my apartment I'd already be over the prebuilds at that point. Definitely on the radar, but not gonna save me much. Programmable layers sound nice right about now though.
Also-unfortunately our other software is almost mouse-only (text input for search and nothing else) so I'm not gonna be able to pull away from that one much. Vertical mouse I have is kind of helpful but I can't tell if it's more of an issue to be switching from vertical mouse to horizontal keyboard than it is to just stay flat in the first place.
Ergonomics are hell. Especially considering that as soon as I break away from heavy typing and go home, I have next to no pain (only issues there are chair-wise, and that's another case of "I can't afford the really good stuff right now"), and that's with no ergonomic accommodation at all besides a palm rest on my CK550.

Constellation I
Apr 3, 2005
I'm a sucker, a little fucker.
I dunno, aren't the cheaper Kinesis Freestyle 2 boards about $100 USD ish? That should honestly be well under "this is a lot of fuckin' money" territory, especially for ergonomics purposes at work. Some offices probably spend more on a single keyboard tray. It's still an improvement over your current situation at least.

As for the mouse situation, hopefully having a split keyboard gives you enough flexibility to place the mouse to somewhere ideal.

AbsoluteLlama
Aug 15, 2009

By the power vested in me by random musings in tmt... I proclaim you guilty of crustophilia!

SkyeAuroline posted:

Unfortunately by the time I get soldering supplies and make it safe to work in my apartment I'd already be over the prebuilds at that point. Definitely on the radar, but not gonna save me much. Programmable layers sound nice right about now though.
Also-unfortunately our other software is almost mouse-only (text input for search and nothing else) so I'm not gonna be able to pull away from that one much. Vertical mouse I have is kind of helpful but I can't tell if it's more of an issue to be switching from vertical mouse to horizontal keyboard than it is to just stay flat in the first place.
Ergonomics are hell. Especially considering that as soon as I break away from heavy typing and go home, I have next to no pain (only issues there are chair-wise, and that's another case of "I can't afford the really good stuff right now"), and that's with no ergonomic accommodation at all besides a palm rest on my CK550.

This really sounds like a loving awful situation. Mouse <-> keyboard motion repetition tends to be bad for a lot of people.

Maybe getting an expensive keyboard is jumping the gun. As far as I know there isn't really any research that shows 'ergonomic' keyboards actually help prevent or recover from injury, and I don't really like to call any keyboard 'ergonomic'. Honestly, there really isn't an ergonomic way to use a computer, and at best you're just shifting stress to other parts of your body. That said, you can do a number of basic things that don't require extra equipment:
  • Take a 5 minute break every 30-60 mins and walk around/stretch/look at distant objects. This varies by the nature of the work but I found that taking 10+mins to stretch every hour let me plan the next 50 minutes of work a lot better than just working nonstop.
  • Try and shift working positions regularly. This can vary with equipment but it can even just be moving the location of your mouse/kb around. Have you tried using the mouse left-handed?
  • Regular exercise may help a lot more than you think. A lot of the stress can be picked up by the rest of your body if it's healthy.
You can look online for specifics but everybody is different and such, so I can't really give specific exercises or anything. In my experience ergonomics 'experts' and such tend to be full of poo poo. I've had experts hired by an employer buy thousands of dollars of equipment that I knew I didn't need when much cheaper solutions existed. You really just need to pay attention to what your body is doing and try to look out for yourself. And things will change over time so you can't really be static.

One last thing: It's hard during pandemic and all but you might consider seeing a physical therapist if possible. A lot of health plans (in the US at least) will cover it at a cheaper rate since it's cheaper than a doctor. IMO a lot of physical therapists are way better at figuring out what the gently caress is going on compared to doctors, who usually just want to do surgery or tell you nothing can be done, and will also usually give you personalized exercise/pt routines that you can do on your own.

SkyeAuroline
Nov 12, 2020

Constellation I posted:

I dunno, aren't the cheaper Kinesis Freestyle 2 boards about $100 USD ish? That should honestly be well under "this is a lot of fuckin' money" territory, especially for ergonomics purposes at work. Some offices probably spend more on a single keyboard tray. It's still an improvement over your current situation at least.

As for the mouse situation, hopefully having a split keyboard gives you enough flexibility to place the mouse to somewhere ideal.

Yeah, I can find one of them for about $70-80, if my doctor pulls through with "yes this is real" (even though they officially diagnosed me this is still a luck game, they're the least communicative medical staff I've ever worked with but it's the only place with hours I can reach) then a Freestyle 2 is likely where we're going.


AbsoluteLlama posted:

This really sounds like a loving awful situation. Mouse <-> keyboard motion repetition tends to be bad for a lot of people.

Maybe getting an expensive keyboard is jumping the gun. As far as I know there isn't really any research that shows 'ergonomic' keyboards actually help prevent or recover from injury, and I don't really like to call any keyboard 'ergonomic'. Honestly, there really isn't an ergonomic way to use a computer, and at best you're just shifting stress to other parts of your body. That said, you can do a number of basic things that don't require extra equipment:

(snip)
Yeah, it's not great! This is what happens when you use ancient software and refuse to ever replace it, you get things that can't be easily worked with. I wouldn't still be here if they didn't pay near double what any equivalent around here would and if I didn't have as hard of a time finding new work as I do. Also, current events and hiring.
A split keyboard in particular is actually immediately, visibly helpful with how hard my right wrist gets angled, but it's a matter of getting that taken care of. About anything that doesn't have me trying to align to straight will do that. (My home keyboard is non-angled, but I did just notice that I subconsciously shifted left to have my wrists mostly straight; that's not possible with my work desk, since it's one of those corner cubicles with a cutout the exact width of my lovely chair. Speaking of which, was supposed to get a new chair years ago along with the rest of the office but that never panned out...) I'm less concerned about all the key alignments and whatnot than I am about being able to keep things in straight lines, and I can tell not being able to is an issue.

FWIW, I do get up pretty regularly and walk around, and I try to keep pretty regular stretches/etc breaks going. My current mouse (the vert that I bought) is right-handed, and the work-provided one is smaller than my palm and hence very much uncomfortable to use. None of my other equipment can move at all from where it's at since, again, corner cubicle with exact cutouts... it only lines up to one position.

quote:

You can look online for specifics but everybody is different and such, so I can't really give specific exercises or anything. In my experience ergonomics 'experts' and such tend to be full of poo poo. I've had experts hired by an employer buy thousands of dollars of equipment that I knew I didn't need when much cheaper solutions existed. You really just need to pay attention to what your body is doing and try to look out for yourself. And things will change over time so you can't really be static.

One last thing: It's hard during pandemic and all but you might consider seeing a physical therapist if possible. A lot of health plans (in the US at least) will cover it at a cheaper rate since it's cheaper than a doctor. IMO a lot of physical therapists are way better at figuring out what the gently caress is going on compared to doctors, who usually just want to do surgery or tell you nothing can be done, and will also usually give you personalized exercise/pt routines that you can do on your own.

Physical therapy is potentially on the docket after an EMG next week determining whether it's in "oh Christ we need to do surgery" territory. A pain in the rear end to get into pretty much anywhere, and just band-aiding over the causes until those can get addressed.
I'm mostly terrified by how rapidly it's getting much worse after being a nearly unnoticeable low-level issue for, probably, years. Especially that adjustments to help are very much not actually helping.

Cheese Thief
Oct 30, 2020

DirtyRobot posted:

Yeah, they have a keyboard literally just called the “New Model M” that, per reviews, improves on the older models that were relying on very old moulds. But apparently they sell like no beige keyboards (I think this might be because a huge chunk of their sales are to businesses?) so the “New Model M” model has no beige version, and might never :(

Unicomp will do colour key caps (though colour options are nothing like wasd or something), even custom printed. They just don’t advertise it on the site. Example (and lovely story): https://www.reddit.com/r/modelm/comments/g205gw/unicomp_custom_keys_lovely_quality_service_and/

Buttons link: https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/category/Buttons

If you open a ticket they’ll answer questions for any weird stuff that is not on their website.

This is Unicomp's response to my email:

"Unfortunately, we do not have a need for used keyboards. Of course, we do not sell used keyboards to our customers.

The New Model M is the same as the Ultra Classic with a little difference in the size of the coverset. It is made, however, with all new tooling and is a really sharp looking keyboard."

GnarlyCharlie4u
Sep 23, 2007

I have an unhealthy obsession with motorcycles.

Proof
I think I accidentally removed the Goon Keyboard Discord. Anyone got a link?

Also I am so dumb. I just built my Prime E the other day and completely forgot I don't have a 1.25u tab/caps key for like any of my keysets.

HappyCapybaraFamily
Sep 16, 2009


Roger Baolong Thunder Dragon has been fascinated by this sophisticated and scientifically beautiful industry since childhood, and has shown his talent in the design and manufacture of watches.

GnarlyCharlie4u posted:

I think I accidentally removed the Goon Keyboard Discord. Anyone got a link?

Here you go, bud! https://discord.gg/CvDzd7Sy

Saukkis
May 16, 2003

Unless I'm on the inside curve pointing straight at oncoming traffic the high beams stay on and I laugh at your puny protest flashes.
I am Most Important Man. Most Important Man in the World.

SkyeAuroline posted:

Unfortunately by the time I get soldering supplies and make it safe to work in my apartment I'd already be over the prebuilds at that point. Definitely on the radar, but not gonna save me much. Programmable layers sound nice right about now though.
Also-unfortunately our other software is almost mouse-only (text input for search and nothing else) so I'm not gonna be able to pull away from that one much. Vertical mouse I have is kind of helpful but I can't tell if it's more of an issue to be switching from vertical mouse to horizontal keyboard than it is to just stay flat in the first place.
Ergonomics are hell. Especially considering that as soon as I break away from heavy typing and go home, I have next to no pain (only issues there are chair-wise, and that's another case of "I can't afford the really good stuff right now"), and that's with no ergonomic accommodation at all besides a palm rest on my CK550.

It's sounds like the mouse may be a bigger problem for you, so you might want to ask The Mouse Thread for any advice or alternatives.

The easiest and cheapest solution is to get a second mouse for the left side with the buttons reversed. This is my solution and since I've been right-mouser for two decades I nowadays try to use my left hand mostly. You may need a a mouse like Logitech that comes with a management software so you can have two mice with different button settings.

At work there was one office full of ladies that all seemed to use some kind of alternative mouse under the space bar. My favourite was Contour RollerMouse which is a rubber coated metal bar you can roll or swing left and right, But drat they cost. Another option I've considered is Apple Trackpad, but they also cost and I'm concerned how well they work with Windows. That could be extra convenient with split keyboard where you could but it between the keyboards.

I feel that with mice the biggest problem is clicking, this was especially noticeably while I've played World of Tanks where I had to continuously keep the right button pressed. Easy solution for this could be a mouse with couple thumb buttons to use instead of the normal buttons and disable the standard buttons, that would at least force you to use different muscles. I know a guy that used to have foot pedals as mouse buttons, which is a more extreme alternative.

Sounds like large part of your problem is mouse-centric software. Consider if software robotics could help with AutoHotkey or something. Press Ctrl-D and have the software click the mouse at specific coordinates.

A while ago I tested strapping keyboards on the side of my chair. Worked pretty nice but requires quite a bit of training with blind typing and would really need a wireless split keyboard. I also noticed that I don't do that much typing at home, pretty much just PgDn and F5, so didn't benefit enough.

Constellation I
Apr 3, 2005
I'm a sucker, a little fucker.
That's probably the greatest photo ever posted in this thread.

SkyeAuroline
Nov 12, 2020

Saukkis posted:

It's sounds like the mouse may be a bigger problem for you, so you might want to ask The Mouse Thread for any advice or alternatives.

The easiest and cheapest solution is to get a second mouse for the left side with the buttons reversed. This is my solution and since I've been right-mouser for two decades I nowadays try to use my left hand mostly. You may need a a mouse like Logitech that comes with a management software so you can have two mice with different button settings.

At work there was one office full of ladies that all seemed to use some kind of alternative mouse under the space bar. My favourite was Contour RollerMouse which is a rubber coated metal bar you can roll or swing left and right, But drat they cost. Another option I've considered is Apple Trackpad, but they also cost and I'm concerned how well they work with Windows. That could be extra convenient with split keyboard where you could but it between the keyboards.

I feel that with mice the biggest problem is clicking, this was especially noticeably while I've played World of Tanks where I had to continuously keep the right button pressed. Easy solution for this could be a mouse with couple thumb buttons to use instead of the normal buttons and disable the standard buttons, that would at least force you to use different muscles. I know a guy that used to have foot pedals as mouse buttons, which is a more extreme alternative.

Sounds like large part of your problem is mouse-centric software. Consider if software robotics could help with AutoHotkey or something. Press Ctrl-D and have the software click the mouse at specific coordinates.

A while ago I tested strapping keyboards on the side of my chair. Worked pretty nice but requires quite a bit of training with blind typing and would really need a wireless split keyboard. I also noticed that I don't do that much typing at home, pretty much just PgDn and F5, so didn't benefit enough.



Appreciate all the insights - going to be a bit brief by necessity, not disinterest, I'm out for most of today.

I'm more immediately concerned with the KB over the mouse because a) I have that spare mouse, even if it's crap, b) my left arm issues almost completely disappear when I'm working in the mouse only software. For quick context without providing in-house details (and because my fragmented commentary may be unclear), one of our databases is straight monochrome terminal entry where the only mouse support is for selecting inside already-selected fields, so that's pure keyboard; the other has limited support for tab/enter/arrow selection, but due to bad web design most of the fields require mouse input with just a little typing to ctrl-F search for things. Most of my time is usually spent in the terminal but recently the web interface has been taking up more time. I'm not gonna pretend I'm perfect and cured with the latter, but it's mild at best pain in one forearm/elbow rather than "knife shoved in both arms and unpleasant feelings in my wrists and hands". That's the logic behind the priorities and the use case at hand.

AHK is definitely something I've considered, but between interface lag (the terminal has to run on a VM that may not even be locally hosted - I'm not totally sure) and the unpredictable location of elements in the web interface's searches where most of my work gets done, I'm not sure how I'd get it to be reliable enough. Along with needing to figure out trigger mechanisms when shortcuts are already reserved & layers aren't yet in the picture.

I'm likely going to try going back to the old mouse for the first few days this week and see what changes. I'll be in the web side for a day or two anyway so it's good time for a test run. Keyboard... Well, I picked up a wrist brace in hopes of using that to help guide adjustments and it turns out rigid wrist braces loving hurt. So I'll be making other adjustments instead, whatever "other solutions" may be. Not really a solution in and of itself but the attempt to do so. Cannot wait for a keyboard that's not this pos. (Of course they want me to see about working from home part time, too, which adds another expense layer... sure, if you pay for a larger apartment than the one I just moved to so there's space for another desk, then I'll be on the hook for equipment and furniture all over again...)

May be able to swing a workstation picture if I censor enough sensitive stuff (it'll still dox me instantly to any coworkers, but nobody but my boss is the right demographic for a goon and he doesn't strike me as likely). Might actually have one, just not a very good one...

Appreciate the input, guys, especially considering this isn't exactly the nominal subject of the thread besides "ergo keyboard pls". I'm hoping to avoid surgery and be able to just manage things with physical therapy and workspace adjustments. I already have enough long-term, unavoidable QOL-degrading illness/disorders to deal with without worrying about keeping nerve control of 4/10 fingers and chronic pain, too.

edit: on reflection I was not brief at all

SkyeAuroline fucked around with this message at 21:22 on Jan 17, 2021

Saukkis
May 16, 2003

Unless I'm on the inside curve pointing straight at oncoming traffic the high beams stay on and I laugh at your puny protest flashes.
I am Most Important Man. Most Important Man in the World.

SkyeAuroline posted:

AHK is definitely something I've considered, but between interface lag (the terminal has to run on a VM that may not even be locally hosted - I'm not totally sure) and the unpredictable location of elements in the web interface's searches where most of my work gets done, I'm not sure how I'd get it to be reliable enough. Along with needing to figure out trigger mechanisms when shortcuts are already reserved & layers aren't yet in the picture.

You might also try F7 caret mode in Firefox. Depending on how the web interface works it just might be more helpful than an annoyance.

This post written completely mouse free.

SkyeAuroline
Nov 12, 2020

Saukkis posted:

You might also try F7 caret mode in Firefox. Depending on how the web interface works it just might be more helpful than an annoyance.

This post written completely mouse free.

Having just enabled caret mode on my home browser (same as work, Firefox): I don't see any difference whatsoever and none of the listed controls actually work. hm.
The issue with the web interface comes mostly with a specific set of searches - it's a selection window of options (fabrics - this is ecommerce, no beating around the bush) that's unsorted and uses the browser's external search, but doesn't support keyboard selection of the results at all. 2-3 of those per products, each product is a 90-second-ish window of time to work through, for a straight 8 hour day... you get the idea.

I did track down a photo I took of the layout (and this awful cheap-rear end keyboard) and removed anything identifying besides... well, the actual desk layout for any coworkers that recognize. It's very bare. I know.

Arcturas
Mar 30, 2011

Is that desktop built into the cubicle walls or is it a standalone? I’m wondering if you could price out an alternative desk top or cubicle options to take it to your boss/HR department as an ADA request, or just buy it yourself and swap it out. Depends how much paper you need to reference but if you could open that up a little it might help.

Arcturas fucked around with this message at 23:24 on Jan 17, 2021

SkyeAuroline
Nov 12, 2020

Arcturas posted:

Is that desktop built into the cubicle walls or is it a standalone? I’m wondering if you could price out an alternative desk top or cubicle options to take it to your boss/HR department as an ADA request, or just buy it yourself and swap it out. Depends how much paper you need to reference but if you could open that up a little it might help.

The whole thing is modular, the maintenance guy and I took it down two notches (27" height instead of 29") so I could manage roughly a 90° arm angle (in practice closer to 110 or so since my chair is limited in how far it can come in) without my forearms angling way up and hopefully without my wrists bending back a ton (the latter didn't work out, if a new keyboard doesn't hapoen then a palm rest like my home desk is 100% happening for that part's sake). There are alternate desk tops that round off the cutout instead (so it's just a corner curve), but that pushes me even further from my computer even if it maybe allows more actual positioning, not sure if that'll just do the same "move the problem around" thing. Not sure what else if anything is even compatible.
Also not incredibly sure that lowering the desk top was the best idea, it happened at the same time as my heavy-lifting move and after I had started running into problems, but it didn't reduce them much at all and I can't find jack poo poo on actual suitable desk height (and consequences of a too-low desk since so few people have those). Might have to walk it back but that's probably judt going to move problems back to even worse kn my elbows & worsening ulnar issues instead of the current spreading-out...

Saukkis
May 16, 2003

Unless I'm on the inside curve pointing straight at oncoming traffic the high beams stay on and I laugh at your puny protest flashes.
I am Most Important Man. Most Important Man in the World.

SkyeAuroline posted:

The whole thing is modular, the maintenance guy and I took it down two notches (27" height instead of 29") so I could manage roughly a 90° arm angle (in practice closer to 110 or so since my chair is limited in how far it can come in) without my forearms angling way up and hopefully without my wrists bending back a ton (the latter didn't work out, if a new keyboard doesn't hapoen then a palm rest like my home desk is 100% happening for that part's sake). There are alternate desk tops that round off the cutout instead (so it's just a corner curve), but that pushes me even further from my computer even if it maybe allows more actual positioning, not sure if that'll just do the same "move the problem around" thing. Not sure what else if anything is even compatible.
Also not incredibly sure that lowering the desk top was the best idea, it happened at the same time as my heavy-lifting move and after I had started running into problems, but it didn't reduce them much at all and I can't find jack poo poo on actual suitable desk height (and consequences of a too-low desk since so few people have those). Might have to walk it back but that's probably judt going to move problems back to even worse kn my elbows & worsening ulnar issues instead of the current spreading-out...

Well all the ergo advice I have ever seen or heard has started with the elbows at 90 degree angle. You can always remove the handrests from the chair to be able to move closer to the desk.

SkyeAuroline
Nov 12, 2020

Yeah, I was previously using an armless one to make that happen. Somewhere around where my shoulders started screaming from a complete lack of support for my arms, I tracked down this one with arms. Lessened, but not gone, naturally...

Saukkis
May 16, 2003

Unless I'm on the inside curve pointing straight at oncoming traffic the high beams stay on and I laugh at your puny protest flashes.
I am Most Important Man. Most Important Man in the World.
Ergonomics really is such a problematic issue. Ergo-oriented products usually have a considerable expense and it's hard to know which are actually good and especially would work for a specific individual. Any larger organization should probably purchase a collection of ergo products that can be loaned out to their personnel for testing. I too am after more ergonomic products, but I'm loathe to pay the prices and I'm even less eager to go through the procurement process and then to ask for a different product next month. I work for the IT department of a large university and I have long thought we should do this, but an obstacle would be that we aren't a loaning department. But the university library is, maybe they could handle that.

SkyeAuroline
Nov 12, 2020

The expense part is definitely in play. We weren't actually expecting to still have our building currently since COVID delayed a move, so I'm assuming that's why chair replacements were put on hold, and things are always tight by nature of the industry (good luck competing with Amazon; only way you can really manage it is name recognition or industries they aren't quite taking over yet). I did ask our IT dept if they had anything in storage, and no, they've just got what they issue out normally; for most people I guess it works (or else they don't notice until it's too late), I'm just at the unfortunate juncture of other health issues compounding it. So I'm pretty sure my personally-owned mouse & maybe someone else's keyboard if they brought their own are the only ergo products in the building. Good luck swinging the money, though maybe this will be a slight eye-opener to have this sort of thing on hand, assuming I don't get quietly retaliated against like I'm suspecting will happen based off past events. At least I'll have a paper trail this time around.

As a former university library assistant: ours did a little tech rental for students and staff, but it was very limited for budgetary reasons. Worth asking them about.

DirtyRobot
Dec 15, 2003

it was a normally happy sunny day... but Dirty Robot was dirty

Cheese Thief posted:

This is Unicomp's response to my email:

"Unfortunately, we do not have a need for used keyboards. Of course, we do not sell used keyboards to our customers.

The New Model M is the same as the Ultra Classic with a little difference in the size of the coverset. It is made, however, with all new tooling and is a really sharp looking keyboard."

Yeah, like just to be clear, in your case I think your keyboard is aces and I didn't mean to imply you should get a new one.

My understanding is there were quality control issues because the old moulds were like 30 years old or whatever, because they were *actually* the same moulds used for the model m's that the unicomp folks desperately sourced from factories around the world when they first bought up the patents and were starting up. But on reddit you can find people complaining about minor quality control stuff: flex or creak in the casing, some wobble in the keycaps, etc. (I've also seen complaints about fuzziness of keycap printing... but that seems to have decreased recently—and totally separately from the New Model M.) But like if you don't experience that... it's basically the same keyboard.

The New Model M is them finally saying screw it, we need to update these moulds. It's still meant to be "a model m," but I guess you lose something when you can't say, "We're literally using the actual, same physical moulds." I can't find them, but I've seen pics comparing the ultra classic to an actual, original IBM model m, and you can see the exact same texture pattern in a few areas on the case. I think that's kinda cool, but technically, with the new version, you lose that.

r/modelm - Unicomp Ultra Classic vs. Classic vs. New Model M vs. original IBM Model M

r/modelm - visit to unicomp factory and interview with Unicomp people ⤌ this one's neat

Geekhack - Unicomp - "New Model M" Review

In my own case, I've been dicking around for months with Unicomp's custom key template to create something that has the design language of the original Model M, but has my own preferred tweaks:



I'm trying to create basically something that has the look/feel of an actual model m. I'd just get a model m, except that I could never go back to a 101 key keyboard on my mac. I've been holding out for a beige/pearl version of the New Model M, but it looks like I should actually buy the ultra classic in beige/pearl while I still even have the chance. I've emailed to see if I can get a firmer answer.

From the interview:

the r/model m interview link above posted:

Eventually, I went back to the hotel and I thought about something Troy said to me about the fact that all the new keyboards are black. They just aren't getting the sales of the pearl cases, something especially true of the Ultra Classic. Some of you may have noticed that recently, the Ultra Classic has been coming with a black case back. Black cases are the future, apparently. Troy said that the pearl ultra classic is a beautiful keyboard, but is so vanishingly rare that when he sees one on the production floor, he stops to look at it. Well, I happen to agree. So I sent in an order at 4 AM the next morning, put in a customization fee, and asked for a pearl back, if they still had any left. They did, mostly for repairs, but were willing to do a one off for me.
This makes me sad. It's been echoed on the model m discord.

ihatepants
Nov 5, 2011

Let the burning of pants commence. These things drive me nuts.




Can I get a new link to this as well, please? This one already expired.

HappyCapybaraFamily
Sep 16, 2009


Roger Baolong Thunder Dragon has been fascinated by this sophisticated and scientifically beautiful industry since childhood, and has shown his talent in the design and manufacture of watches.

ihatepants posted:

Can I get a new link to this as well, please? This one already expired.

Whoops, here you go!

https://discord.gg/uf7QWWQjHE

huhu
Feb 24, 2006
Hey all - I've been working on a Build Your Own Keyboard kit for the past few months and I've shared here a few times and some of you wanted to know when it'd be available. If you're curious how mechanical keyboards work and would want to build your own or just want a new 6 key macropad - I invite you to check it out. https://pp2.dev/byoks

GnarlyCharlie4u
Sep 23, 2007

I have an unhealthy obsession with motorcycles.

Proof

huhu posted:

Hey all - I've been working on a Build Your Own Keyboard kit for the past few months and I've shared here a few times and some of you wanted to know when it'd be available. If you're curious how mechanical keyboards work and would want to build your own or just want a new 6 key macropad - I invite you to check it out. https://pp2.dev/byoks

Seems neat. Did you already post a thread in Geekhack or Keebtalk?

Cheese Thief
Oct 30, 2020

DirtyRobot posted:

Yeah, they have a keyboard literally just called the “New Model M” that, per reviews, improves on the older models that were relying on very old moulds.

I'm not sure that I even like the buckling spring KBs I have now since you have to bear down so hard for the keystroke to register. I think for special purpose they are good

HappyCapybaraFamily
Sep 16, 2009


Roger Baolong Thunder Dragon has been fascinated by this sophisticated and scientifically beautiful industry since childhood, and has shown his talent in the design and manufacture of watches.
Finally relubed my stabilizers. I was too lazy to disassemble the keyboard and pull out the stabilizers, so I just stabbed some dielectric grease into the proper areas with a toothpick. Seems to have worked quite well! The stabilized keys are just about as quiet as the normal non-stabilized ones, though I may have globbed on bit much as they also feel slightly heavier than before, lol

Still worth it to get rid of the sudden sharp clack when hitting Enter or Shift, though

huhu
Feb 24, 2006

GnarlyCharlie4u posted:

Seems neat. Did you already post a thread in Geekhack or Keebtalk?

Thanks! I had not. I'll check them out.

Cheese Thief
Oct 30, 2020
Recs for an apple keyboard that is bluetooth, because even though the scissor switches are better than last years it doesn't feel very satisfying to type on that keyboard ?

LochNessMonster
Feb 3, 2005

I need about three fitty


Cheese Thief posted:

Recs for an apple keyboard that is bluetooth, because even though the scissor switches are better than last years it doesn't feel very satisfying to type on that keyboard ?

Keychron and Varmillos seem to be recced most often. I think AnnePros are also BT but haven’t heard about those for some time.

Josh Lyman
May 24, 2009


I've had a Microsoft Natural 4000 for 6+ years now (I'm on my 2nd one after my first one died to a spill). I love it for typing and it's good enough for my light gaming needs. Especially nice are the calculator button, the volume/mute controls, and I have 2 shortcut keys set to launch Paint (for cropping/saving screenshots) and Notepad. Is there a "nicer" version? I'm mainly looking for better tactile feedback.

Ewen Cluney
May 8, 2012

Ask me about
Japanese elfgames!

Josh Lyman posted:

I've had a Microsoft Natural 4000 for 6+ years now (I'm on my 2nd one after my first one died to a spill). I love it for typing and it's good enough for my light gaming needs. Especially nice are the calculator button, the volume/mute controls, and I have 2 shortcut keys set to launch Paint (for cropping/saving screenshots) and Notepad. Is there a "nicer" version? I'm mainly looking for better tactile feedback.


Microsoft did a couple of updated wireless models along similar lines, though they're thinner and have more laptop-like keys, especially the gray Surface Ergonomic Keyboard (though it also has Bluetooth). I don't know of any mechanical keyboards that have all of that functionality in one place, but if I were aiming for that I'd probably combine some kind of split ergonomic keyboard (Ergodox, Moonlander, Lily58, Gergo, Kinesis Freestyle, etc.) with a numpad and/or macropad.

Arcturas
Mar 30, 2011

Can someone give me a baby's first GMK explanation? I have a Drop CTRL and would like to set it so the default RGB setting is off, and then I can swap through just normally, in the same order. The last time I installed a dev environment was a decade and a half ago in college, trying to do basic java programming, so all this business about configuring files is confusing if I just need to reorder an array.

Midjack
Dec 24, 2007



Arcturas posted:

Can someone give me a baby's first GMK explanation? I have a Drop CTRL and would like to set it so the default RGB setting is off, and then I can swap through just normally, in the same order. The last time I installed a dev environment was a decade and a half ago in college, trying to do basic java programming, so all this business about configuring files is confusing if I just need to reorder an array.

You don't have to mess with the firmware directly unless you just want to. Go here and click on stuff to generate the firmware file configured as you want it, then follow the linked directions to load it on the keyboard. You have to do some command line stuff to get it flashed to the keyboard but it's straightforward.

Canna Happy
Jul 11, 2004
The engine, code A855, has a cast iron closed deck block and split crankcase. It uses an 8.1:1 compression ratio with Mahle cast eutectic aluminum alloy pistons, forged connecting rods with cracked caps and threaded-in 9 mm rod bolts, and a cast high

Novelkeys is doing a nk65 entry restock tomorrow at 10am est. I have one that I really like after redoing the lube on the stabs.

AbsoluteLlama
Aug 15, 2009

By the power vested in me by random musings in tmt... I proclaim you guilty of crustophilia!

Arcturas posted:

Can someone give me a baby's first GMK explanation? I have a Drop CTRL and would like to set it so the default RGB setting is off, and then I can swap through just normally, in the same order. The last time I installed a dev environment was a decade and a half ago in college, trying to do basic java programming, so all this business about configuring files is confusing if I just need to reorder an array.

I don't know anything specific about the Drop.

If it's just stock QMK it should persist the current state in the EEPROM, so you should just be able to turn it off and it'll stay off between powering off.

If you always want it to always be off when plugging in, I'm not sure there is a way to do it with some web tool. You'd probably need to build it yourself and add a custom keyboard_post_init but using rgblight_disable_noeeprom instead.

Arcturas
Mar 30, 2011

Midjack posted:

You don't have to mess with the firmware directly unless you just want to. Go here and click on stuff to generate the firmware file configured as you want it, then follow the linked directions to load it on the keyboard. You have to do some command line stuff to get it flashed to the keyboard but it's straightforward.

Thanks. I could use that to generate a firmware file that just left the LED's turned off, but not one that would default to off and cycle through the different patterns when I hit the pattern selection buttons. Still, that's probably fine for now.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

AbsoluteLlama
Aug 15, 2009

By the power vested in me by random musings in tmt... I proclaim you guilty of crustophilia!

Arcturas posted:

Thanks. I could use that to generate a firmware file that just left the LED's turned off, but not one that would default to off and cycle through the different patterns when I hit the pattern selection buttons. Still, that's probably fine for now.

I looked into this a bit more and this is probably the best option if you don't care about LEDs. I have no idea what code is being used by the configurator, but it appears that the default keymap in the QMK source for the CTRL bypasses the EEPROM, which would explain them being on whenever you plug the board in.

https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/blob/16fe4b8b77c2eee7fb1598063d2903086bd03ca4/keyboards/massdrop/ctrl/keymaps/default/keymap.c#L114

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply