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Rinkles posted:i realized i can't really continue this discussion in earnest without rewatching his videos, because i've forgotten most of the specifics that put me off, but i don't really want to do that (i apologize). You know what? That's fair. I appreciate the point. 
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Jan 18, 2021 07:01
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Cardiovorax posted:The way they showed off Saints Row 1's vehicle physics and how superior they were to what is in-game in Cyberpunk is what really got to the most. You almost don't notice how static and dead it makes the world feel even in other videos like this until you see it side by side like that. It's such a little touch, but it makes such a bit difference. Stuff like that and the variety of reaction animations from NPCs and stuff really do add a lot.
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Jan 18, 2021 07:11
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Cardiovorax posted:The way they showed off Saints Row 1's vehicle physics and how superior they were to what is in-game in Cyberpunk is what really got to the most. You almost don't notice how static and dead it makes the world feel even in other videos like this until you see it side by side like that. It's such a little touch, but it makes such a bit difference.
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Jan 18, 2021 07:24
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Samurai Sanders posted:It’s a really long video, but they compare it to the driving in LA Noire? That’s the other game I can think of that has an open world that they just gave up on partway through development.
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Jan 18, 2021 07:30
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fridge corn posted:I see now that my problem with the Tokimeki video is not with Rogers but with the subject matter. Forgive me for being broke (not woke) but I still find the idea of high school dating simulators worthy of all the groans and eyerolls they get from me. My experience of high school, now that I think of it, was that it pretty much was a dating simulator. I dont feel I left any unfinished business in high school so I have to reason to revisit it. Who is this Tim person? Some youtuber who does video game reviews? I just finished Nier and loved it. I read Dark Id's Let's Play of it and would like more content. In other news, Doom 2016 is amazing. Is Doom Eternal as good?
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Jan 18, 2021 07:32
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Imhotep posted:Has anyone posted the new crowbcat cyberpunk video https://youtu.be/omyoJ7onNrg As one of the bigger 2077 white knights, this video is absolutely devastating to watch. It highlights some of the poo poo I absolutely do not care about, but there’s soooooo much here that is soooooo damning lol The goofy shadow animations were particularly 
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Jan 18, 2021 07:36
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Imhotep posted:drat the soundtrack slaps. Yeah, there's no debate with that one. I'm actually kind of excited to hear the music in 2077. Patch that poo poo yo!
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Jan 18, 2021 07:40
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definitely coming down on the "game sucks poo poo" side of the discourse now
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Jan 18, 2021 07:42
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Gotta admit, I want to try locust pepperoni. Extra cheese is a given, of course.
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Jan 18, 2021 07:45
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Bust Rodd posted:As one of the bigger 2077 white knights, this video is absolutely devastating to watch. It highlights some of the poo poo I absolutely do not care about, but there’s soooooo much here that is soooooo damning lol Or is that a really naïve thing to say from a development perspective? I’ve never worked in that field.
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Jan 18, 2021 07:56
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Samurai Sanders posted:Or is that a really naïve thing to say from a development perspective? I’ve never worked in that field. Detail work like vehicle physics and making bullets splash when you shoot into a body of water is the kind of thing that would have probably come out better with a larger team and simply by granting more attention to it overall. On the other hand, there was also that recent Jason Schreier tweet about how badly mishandled the development pipeline was in that people would habitually make redundant shader resources simply because there was no way to check if something with a similar functionality had already been done by someone else. That kind of mismanagement is something you can handle with brute force as well, but there's a lot of diminishing returns involved, so maybe it wouldn't have helped that much after all.
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Jan 18, 2021 08:03
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i didn't play witcher 3 beyond the opening 30 min bc it feels like the world's biggest nerd developed his favorite fantasy scenario of being buff and naked in an old timey bath in front of some babe who he had complete control over or whatever jesus gently caress that game lol but i know it's widely considered to be a real gem of a game made by the same studio responsible for the mess that is cp'77. was witcher 3 also a mess on release? like wtf happened
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Jan 18, 2021 08:13
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"some babe he had complete control over"...…?
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Jan 18, 2021 08:17
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ShoogaSlim posted:i didn't play witcher 3 beyond the opening 30 min bc it feels like the world's biggest nerd developed his favorite fantasy scenario of being buff and naked in an old timey bath in front of some babe who he had complete control over or whatever jesus gently caress that game lol It's... Literally a nightmare Geralt has and Yen has him by the balls with almost all the power in the relationship. And the buff dude is broken and scarred to Hell and back.
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Jan 18, 2021 08:18
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ShoogaSlim posted:i didn't play witcher 3 beyond the opening 30 min bc it feels like the world's biggest nerd developed his favorite fantasy scenario of being buff and naked in an old timey bath in front of some babe who he had complete control over or whatever jesus gently caress that game lol Witcher 3 had some serious technical problems in the beginning, same as 2 and 1 did, so everyone was expecting that from CP2077. I at least was also expecting a hilariously broken combat system where just a few skills allow you to bulldoze every enemy, so that also was no surprise. What I wasn’t expecting though were a whole bunch of half done or seemingly abandoned gameplay elements, and also drastically low enemy variety. Those are new to this developer as far as I remember.
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Jan 18, 2021 08:26
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Is there any reason to save my PS4 Pro if I (some day) get a PS5?
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Jan 18, 2021 08:27
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Cardiovorax posted:I used to be a programmer and I've done some work on image-recognition AI, which isn't quite the same thing, but I would still say that in my experience it varies a lot. Some things benefit more from having a larger team assigned to it than others do. AI programming, at least in my experience, is not something that can be spread out across many people very well, because there a lot of fiddly moving parts that build on each other - but it benefits a lot from a longer development cycle, simply because so much of it needs extensive testing periods. The crunch environment of games is making it more and more clear that we'll never have another F.E.A.R enemy AI.
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Jan 18, 2021 08:27
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Smol posted:Is there any reason to save my PS4 Pro if I (some day) get a PS5? Literally the only reason I can think of is that the PS store is much easier to browse on PS4. Otherwise give that poo poo to a family member or the needy imo
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Jan 18, 2021 08:30
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RareAcumen posted:The crunch environment of games is making it more and more clear that we'll never have another F.E.A.R enemy AI. It's one of the downsides of large, varied and naturalistic environments. AIs just don't deal with it well - "simple" problems that are easily phrased in terms of clear decision trees are what they tend to be most capable of maneuvering in a way that appears smart.
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Jan 18, 2021 08:32
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The enemy variety thing is weird because there is plenty of visual variety between all the gangs and corpos, but they all act pretty much the same except the Animals, who are mostly melee. other than that it's pretty much just regular guys that vary by weapon, big guys and fast guys and netrunners...But the game has Cyber Psychos that are in mech suits, Those only appear twice in the game, the cops have those ED 209 things, there's drones, robots etc. But they are all barely used. You'll run into all that stuff once in a while but peppering them in more would have added some more variety. And iirc TW3 had much more variety and ambition going on with the enemy types. I guess the setting in CP2077 is way more limiting, but still I think a variety of robots and really weirdly modded humans like Adam Smasher would have spiced it up a lot.Smol posted:Is there any reason to save my PS4 Pro if I (some day) get a PS5? Probably only if you want to use it on a second TV or something. There's nothing noteworthy it can do that the PS5 cant do(usually much better) really.
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Jan 18, 2021 08:34
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Almost every half hour like clockwork https://twitter.com/cleargatewest/status/1351075042642300929?s=19
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Jan 18, 2021 08:53
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I think, at least on ps5, that most of the problems are all in save file for some people. I didnt start the game until 1.5 and i've never seen 90% of problems like tposes and vanishing poo poo. Panams/hellman quest was the buggist and the crashes and thats it. I also dont play this like im playing gta so i have had no cops spawn in lol i rp baby. 
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Jan 18, 2021 09:00
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RareAcumen posted:The crunch environment of games is making it more and more clear that we'll never have another F.E.A.R enemy AI. FEAR's AI was as much smoke and mirrors as tech. But you know what? We need more of that magic. Because the entertainment industry is as much about smoke and mirrors and illusionism. What, you think they got little people to play hobbits and dwarves? No, they put people on stools just out of frame to make people grow and shrink in size. In the same way, Monolith defined strict nodes for movement, and if that called for boxy levels, then identical looking cubicles are what you are going to get to make the illusion work. That craft I respect, not this bullshit about modelling every single physics object in a spaceship or drawing a million polygons on your uncircumsized dick and balls under your denim jeans.
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Jan 18, 2021 09:06
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Phobophilia posted:What, you think they got little people to play hobbits and dwarves? They absolutely did! There was an entire cast of doubles for LOTR and the Hobbit of shorter people. They’d act in a lot of the wider shots when hobbits were playing against Gandalf. You should watch the Hobbir makings of, they’re very good.
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Jan 18, 2021 10:23
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Most of what people consider good AI is smoke and mirrors for the most part. Video game enemies are pretty simple and dumb by design, because they are there to perpetuate a power fantasy. If you want to split hairs most game enemies don't even really have anything that would qualify as artificial intelligence. They don't learn or improvise they just follow commands based on circumstances. I actually find it lovely (although I get why) that game enemies have gotten much stupider over the years compared to a lot of stuff in the early/mid 2000s. When stealth was a top genre, it felt like there was this push to make enemies more reactive, varied, believable. Even going back to like, MGS 1 enemies were much more astute than the average game today. Checking under furniture, following footsteps, just little things to make the situation more tense and believable. But the stealth genre was about watching and waiting, moving bodies, sneaking around. It was slow paced. Somewhere along the line the game industry landed on "stealth is good, but all of the enemies should be so stupid that you literally have to put zero effort into it". there's exceptions but not a ton of them. I kind of sucks, because enemy AI is like, the one thing that has barely improved or probably even gotten worse in video games over the years. If the games industry focused on it even 25% as much as they do graphics games might be a lot more interesting than they are right now. Games are near photorealistic, yet enemies are still just walking in circles and standing around waiting to get shot. It's bizarre that it's been a non priority for the industry. But I guess online gaming is supposed to scratch that itch. If you really want to go head to head with something that can outsmart you, you can just play against other people. I still wish game enemies weren't so basic though.
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Jan 18, 2021 10:24
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Hopefully AI gets better this gen since processors are way better.
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Jan 18, 2021 10:27
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I once read an interview with a developer for fighting games who said "the hardest part about designing an enemy AI is allowing the player to win." Games kind of have to hack together combat systems that feel fair to human beings because a computer opponent can just be programmed to read your inputs and never miss by default. You have to program in the things that give some advantage to the player and the visual theatre necessary to recognize it.
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Jan 18, 2021 10:37
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Quantum of Phallus posted:Hopefully AI gets better this gen since processors are way better. It's possible, but to me it feels a lot more like the homogenization of how games are made than anything related to hardware limitations. The industry seems to have decided it's not worth making enemies smarter, because it slows the pace down. If it were related to hardware people wouldn't mostly wax nostalgic about the AI in games that game out 10-20 years ago.
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Jan 18, 2021 10:40
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The enemies in far cry 5 were so braindead that it made the game unenjoyable. Just thought “I should be playing mgsv instead”. not to say that fc5 would’ve been good if you could do that. Just might’ve made it a little better. even in tlou2 the enemies just forgot where shots were coming from. but I did like the evolution of the ‘enemies look under cars’ to enemies pull you out from under them
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Jan 18, 2021 10:50
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It's funny you say that because I think Far Cry 3 was the first time I actively noticed that stealthing video game enemies had gotten really stupid. And it was sort of jarring at the time, but now it just feels normal to walk around and kill the most oblivious NPCs ever. But get this you have to be squatting while you do it because that makes U invisible ~video games~
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Jan 18, 2021 10:58
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Yeah in some genres the enemy can be programmed to be trivially indominatable: never miss a shot at anyone in draw distance, perfectly respond to the player's input. But that's not the goal, the actual goal of the AI enemies is to be used by the designer to trap the player in a perfect state of game flow, just hard enough to be a challenge, but not hard enough to be insurmountable. Sometimes that means artificial stupidity, other times that means telegraphing their attacks and movements so the player can react. Depending on the genre, that reaction time can be a split second parry, or minutes as the player considers every possible move on the game board.
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Jan 18, 2021 11:00
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Phobophilia posted:That craft I respect, not this bullshit about modelling every single physics object in a spaceship or drawing a million polygons on your uncircumsized dick and balls under your denim jeans.
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Jan 18, 2021 11:01
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Phobophilia posted:Yeah in some genres the enemy can be programmed to be trivially indominatable: never miss a shot at anyone in draw distance, perfectly respond to the player's input. But that's not the goal, the actual goal of the AI enemies is to be used by the designer to trap the player in a perfect state of game flow, just hard enough to be a challenge, but not hard enough to be insurmountable. Sometimes that means artificial stupidity, other times that means telegraphing their attacks and movements so the player can react. Depending on the genre, that reaction time can be a split second parry, or minutes as the player considers every possible move on the game board. Yeah that sums it up nicely. Smarter enemies turn it into a game of chess. And that is just not very popular right now. Stealth has (de?)evolved into keeping the action flowing as much as shooting and even shooting has mostly moved away from enemies trying to juke/flank you, or even move at all in favor of just popping their heads out from behind boxes so you are never slowed down. I kind of get why games have moved in that direction but I also think it holds them back. veni veni veni fucked around with this message at 11:09 on Jan 18, 2021 |
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Jan 18, 2021 11:07
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Bust Rodd posted:Yeah I mean I’ve completely given up on trying explain why 2077 is good, everyone has probably made up their mind and hasn’t changed it since 6 months before release. I’ve absolutely played worse video games, but I’ve never played a buggier video game (except for Skyrim). I am extremely excited to play it again in a little while, but until then it’s just wild watching the entire slow-motion car accident that is its release and maintenance period. This game literally drives people insane. i was very excited for cyberpunk, there's a serious dearth of modern or futuristic setting rpgs, and i can put up with a lot for them. vampire the masquerade bloodlines was an absolutely broken mess that didnt get comprehensive patches (and they were fan patches because lmao gently caress obsidian there's no money for patches activision is cool) so understand, i could have forgiven a messy game. i wasn't interested because of AAA bullshit, i just wanted a fun first person cyberpunk rpg where i could sneak around and do quests in different ways. they didnt make an rpg, they made broken far cry. and you know what? i could have lived with broken cyberpunk far cry, but the AI is so broken that for me, there is absolutely nothing to engage with here. it doesn't matter what i do, i feel no interest in trying to approach an encounter from any different ways, because it's all meaningless. if the AI decides to act properly it's just an unengaging action game to me where i feel no particular incentive to chase the 5000 icons on the map, because at no point did i feel like i was making any kind of progression skill wise or story wise. it was just an absolute overload of map icons that don't care what i have done or will do. i am not trying to convince anyone they didn't have fun, i literally do not care. it's fine, i am sure there's a lot of people that will like what is going on here once they've solved the crashing and scripts breaking, but i am fundamentally disappointed that i was looking forward to a unique rpg experience and got a broken action game. i might come back to the game some day, i probably won't. i didn't over hype myself for anything, i would have gladly engaged in a broken mess of a game if it had just been anything but a linear play once open world game with absolutely no reason (for me) to explore the open world. the cyberpunk map feels a bit like every failed attempt at making a dwarf fortress-like game that is missing the systems like the dwarf moods that makes insane things happen in it. i find it annoying that people suggest that there is no possible genuine issues someone could have and we've all made up our mind for some fuckin zeitgeist reason Neo Rasa posted:You know something that made me really annoyed about the game's marketing/etc. bullshit after seeing that video was I didn't realize how much they were hyping up the story having lots of important choices/consequences/branching origins and paths/etc. Like I know no video game's story progression is as open as it's hyped to be, but why were they even talking that up at all when that's clearly not what they were going for. Like even if the game didn't have any glitches that'd be really lovely. this is the part of the marketing i fell for that annoys me, and beyond the fact that i am disappointed it's all missing i think it's what leads to the world feeling so dead and inert to me. i could load up my save file at various different points during the game and there's really no evidence i had done anything at all.
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Jan 18, 2021 11:10
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I would say that "evolved" is the more fair way to put it. Flowing action in stealth that isn't just about quickloading every time someone catches a vague glimpse of your left buttock definitely has its place. Metal Gear Solid (for example) has always been more about the "make mistakes and roll with them" school of stealth games than the Thief school of "getting in and out without anyone knowing you were ever there"-style gameplay. The trend tends to be a bit cyclical - games get more action-heavy as people grow tired of the slow approach and vice versa.
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Jan 18, 2021 11:12
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Ordered a PS1 throwback skin for my PS4 Pro off AliExpress because it came with weird marks on the top, like mould had been growing there or something. Couldn't get the marks off with a good scrubbing so figured the skin was the way to, and black is kinda boring anyways. I had ordered a Famicon one from another vendor for a scratched up WiiU last year that looked great, this one looks like blurry trash that came off someone's inkjet (so uh, definitely don't order from the link above). Not sure it'll even be passable from the couch but might as well give it a shot because lol at going to the hassle of returning it to China. In conclusion, AliExpress is a land of contrasts. I look at it like gambling, never put in more than you'd care about losing 
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Jan 18, 2021 11:17
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metal gear has always had the best responses to being spotted in stealth games i think, where you can deal with someone before they alert allies and get right back into doing what you were doing. a lot of games decide once you've alerted one enemy in an encounter you now have to just kill everyone before you move on.
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Jan 18, 2021 11:17
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Stealth games overall have been getting a lot better about this, in my experience, but the MGS series is definitely still the gold standard for how to handle a lot of the weirder situations that can come up in a stealth scenario.
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Jan 18, 2021 11:20
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ShoogaSlim posted:i only bought it bc i wanted to see how underwhelming it would be firsthand This is such a massive self-own
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Jan 18, 2021 11:24
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Phobophilia posted:Yeah in some genres the enemy can be programmed to be trivially indominatable: never miss a shot at anyone in draw distance, perfectly respond to the player's input. But that's not the goal, the actual goal of the AI enemies is to be used by the designer to trap the player in a perfect state of game flow, just hard enough to be a challenge, but not hard enough to be insurmountable. Sometimes that means artificial stupidity, other times that means telegraphing their attacks and movements so the player can react. Depending on the genre, that reaction time can be a split second parry, or minutes as the player considers every possible move on the game board. Yeah, imagine a fully realistic stealth game. Enemies can see you skulking around from an entire football field away instead of having vision cones, there're cameras everywhere, people radio in to relay information regularly, they'll pull every trick that they can if you do manage to hold them up, etc etc
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Jan 18, 2021 11:27
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