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Something I just realized. The Noldor hadn't been in Middle Earth since their migration from Cuiviénen towards Aman. When Feanor arrived for the Battle Under the Stars what exactly were they expecting to face when challenging Morgoth? The Sindar and the Green Elves knew about the Orcs since they'd been fighting them for a while. The Noldor they might only have known about the Balrogs since they were aware of the Maia but I don't think they had ever encountered Orcs before. That would have been a weird first encounter. "Show yourself, Black One! Hide behind your walls and your shadow and flame a- what in Manwe's name are those things!?"
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Jan 18, 2021 02:07
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Hasselblad posted:Are you trolling? Probably not imbued by Gandalf, and the definition of "magic" is left vague in LOTR, but: quote:Indeed there is a power in Rivendell to withstand the might of Mordor, for a while: and elsewhere other powers still dwell. There is power, too, of another kind in the Shire. And also: quote:In dark and loneliness they are strongest; they will not openly attack a house where there are lights and many people – not until they are desperate, not while all the long leagues of Eriador still lie before us. But their power is in terror, and already some in Bree are in their clutch. I think just by being a place inhabited by virtuous people the Shire the ring wraiths wouldn't be able to attack it openly, at least not right away and without help. They were afraid to attack the Prancing Pony and the whole Shire is a bigger job than that.
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Jan 18, 2021 02:16
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Not precisely, but yeah, the hobbits live in a world where the dark things creeping around are spooks and haunts that are for scaring away and telling about at the local inn, not, actually unholy servants of a dark Lord bent on world domination. The Ringwraiths simply don't exist in the story the Hobbits tell themselves is the world, and so they kind of don't.
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Jan 18, 2021 02:47
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The ringwraiths really only have terror as a weapon. They can use conventional weapons, but they aren't necessarily any better with them than anyone else. Alone they only have the natural terror they produce. At Minas Tirith, where they have a huge army, they are able to amplify the terror that the defenders naturally feel. But a lone Nazgul vs. an inn full of hobbits is not going to have that advantage, and it only takes one hobbit with a stick to basically completely disarm a Nazgul. In fact, alone, they are probably less useful than orcs in many ways, as they exist in the spirit world and their ability to interact with the physical world is limited.
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Jan 18, 2021 03:16
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sweet geek swag posted:The ringwraiths really only have terror as a weapon. They can use conventional weapons, but they aren't necessarily any better with them than anyone else. Alone they only have the natural terror they produce. At Minas Tirith, where they have a huge army, they are able to amplify the terror that the defenders naturally feel. But a lone Nazgul vs. an inn full of hobbits is not going to have that advantage, and it only takes one hobbit with a stick to basically completely disarm a Nazgul. In fact, alone, they are probably less useful than orcs in many ways, as they exist in the spirit world and their ability to interact with the physical world is limited.
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Jan 18, 2021 03:24
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sweet geek swag posted:The ringwraiths really only have terror as a weapon. They can use conventional weapons, but they aren't necessarily any better with them than anyone else. Alone they only have the natural terror they produce. At Minas Tirith, where they have a huge army, they are able to amplify the terror that the defenders naturally feel. But a lone Nazgul vs. an inn full of hobbits is not going to have that advantage, and it only takes one hobbit with a stick to basically completely disarm a Nazgul. In fact, alone, they are probably less useful than orcs in many ways, as they exist in the spirit world and their ability to interact with the physical world is limited. I don't quite agree with this because they do get into a big magic fight with Gandalf before Aragorn and the hobbits arrive at Weathertop, and one of them has "doing freaky sorcerer stuff" as his whole metier. All of this occurs off screen though and the fact that in Bree they didn't try it (iirc) is telling.
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Jan 18, 2021 03:26
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Frodo gets stabbed by the Witch King, and gets horribly poisoned and almost dies from that. Gandalf does agree though that terror and fear are their most potent weapons.
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Jan 18, 2021 03:59
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The idea that there's a qualitative difference between things that happen "because of magic" and things that happen "not because of magic" is a Mannish notion.
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Jan 18, 2021 04:01
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The Hobbits believe the Shire is untouched by evil because it's a pointless backwater and you the reader are supposed to think that's true but eventually you find out that all the scones and parties are actually existing in an artificial bubble created by the endless struggle of Rangers who are living in a post apocalyptic world where they defend the few tiny shards of their former realm that haven't been overrun by creatures of the Enemy.
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Jan 18, 2021 04:10
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Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:The Hobbits believe the Shire is untouched by evil because it's a pointless backwater and you the reader are supposed to think that's true but eventually you find out that all the scones and parties are actually existing in an artificial bubble created by the endless struggle of Rangers who are living in a post apocalyptic world where they defend the few tiny shards of their former realm that haven't been overrun by creatures of the Enemy. "Let's go for a walk in the forest down the road!" *gets eaten by a willow*
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Jan 18, 2021 04:24
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OctaviusBeaver posted:
If anything, that speaks to the “power” in the Shire being NOT of the power of a ring. But rather the spirit of hobbits.
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Jan 18, 2021 04:44
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Hasselblad posted:If anything, that speaks to the “power” in the Shire being NOT of the power of a ring. But rather the spirit of hobbits. Yeah I agree, I don't think a ring is protecting them.
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Jan 18, 2021 04:50
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Thorin had it figured out, it's the fact that they prioritize food and drink and song above all else that gives them a charmed life
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Jan 18, 2021 04:55
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In regards to the Shire, I WOULD love to know the timeline between Treebeard letting Saruman go, and the hobbits returning. Bagshot row becoming a quarry, huge brick factories churning out smoke, ugly row homes, hobbit sheriffs with gates barring entrance, Michel Delving turned into a prison. It really is jarring that it all happened so seemingly quick. I mean yeah, Saruman had a pipeweed connection, but how soon after the fellowship began did everything fall apart? The rangers only came to help Aragorn in RotK, yes? Which speaks to just how clutch the rangers were when they were actively guarding the Shire’s borders. Data Graham posted:Thorin had it figured out, it's the fact that they prioritize food and drink and song above all else that gives them a charmed life Nah, it was the weed. Hasselblad fucked around with this message at 05:04 on Jan 18, 2021 |
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Jan 18, 2021 05:00
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Hasselblad posted:In regards to the Shire, I WOULD love to know the timeline between Treebeard letting Saruman go, and the hobbits returning. Bagshot row becoming a quarry, huge brick factories churning out smoke, ugly row homes, hobbit sheriffs with gates barring entrance, Michel Delving turned into a prison. It really is jarring that it all happened so seemingly quick. I mean yeah, Saruman had a pipeweed connection, but how soon after the fellowship began did everything fall apart? The rangers only came to help Aragorn in RotK, yes? I think it actually started pretty soon after the hobbits left initially. Lotho decided he was going to rule the Shire, while other prominent families objected and triggered a political crisis. From what Farmer Maggot says, it had been going on for a while, but once "Sharkey" turns up it's just mindless destruction rather than industrialisation.
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Jan 18, 2021 05:09
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Hasselblad posted:In regards to the Shire, I WOULD love to know the timeline between Treebeard letting Saruman go, and the hobbits returning. Bagshot row becoming a quarry, huge brick factories churning out smoke, ugly row homes, hobbit sheriffs with gates barring entrance, Michel Delving turned into a prison. It really is jarring that it all happened so seemingly quick. I mean yeah, Saruman had a pipeweed connection, but how soon after the fellowship began did everything fall apart? The rangers only came to help Aragorn in RotK, yes? I might be pretty wrong, but I'm pretty sure they spend like MONTHS traveling back to the Shire. Heck I'm gonna look this up in the book.
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Jan 18, 2021 05:41
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Hasselblad posted:The hobbits didn't magically scare away the Nazgul and "resist" them, by virtue of Gandalf's ring. They did resist them. In brandybuck in particular they drove them off. There are other examples The inference I’m making is it’s Gandalf power but who knows
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Jan 18, 2021 05:57
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It’s buckland
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Jan 18, 2021 05:58
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SHISHKABOB posted:I might be pretty wrong, but I'm pretty sure they spend like MONTHS traveling back to the Shire. Heck I'm gonna look this up in the book. They do, but it's actually less time than I remembered. Sauron is defeated on March 25, Aragorn & Arwen's wedding is on Mid Year's Day in July, they leave Minas Tirith on July 19, visit Isengard on August 22 (and encounter Saruman a few days later). They're in Rivendell for Bilbo's birthday on September 22, and then arrive back in the Shire at the end of October. The Battle of Bywater is November 3rd. So it's just over 3 months from Minas Tirith to the Shire, including several stops for parties and funerals. The real void of time is between the Fall of Barad-dur and Aragorn's wedding, which I think passes in like three paragraphs. edit: visual source here: https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/7304/what-is-the-timeline-for-the-lord-of-the-rings-trilogy
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Jan 18, 2021 06:14
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sat on my keys! posted:I don't quite agree with this because they do get into a big magic fight with Gandalf before Aragorn and the hobbits arrive at Weathertop, and one of them has "doing freaky sorcerer stuff" as his whole metier. All of this occurs off screen though and the fact that in Bree they didn't try it (iirc) is telling. Against Gandalf or High Elves the Nazgul absolutely have more power, because they exist both corporeally and in the spirit realm. But generally speaking, Hobbits don't. Against Hobbits and Men, Nazgul seem to have a rather limited repertoire of weapons. Frodo's downfall was putting on the Ring, which put him in the wraith world. Once they stabbed him with the magic blade he was being dragged back into the wraith world as well.
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Jan 18, 2021 07:28
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Tree Bucket posted:"Let's go for a walk in the forest down the road!" *gets eaten by a willow* Yeah living in Arnor loving sucks if you don't have extra long-lived warriors with magical powers constantly defending your home. Who you make fun of if you even know about them.
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Jan 18, 2021 07:32
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webmeister posted:They do, but it's actually less time than I remembered. Sauron is defeated on March 25, Aragorn & Arwen's wedding is on Mid Year's Day in July, they leave Minas Tirith on July 19, visit Isengard on August 22 (and encounter Saruman a few days later). They're in Rivendell for Bilbo's birthday on September 22, and then arrive back in the Shire at the end of October. The Battle of Bywater is November 3rd.
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Jan 18, 2021 08:24
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Nessus posted:One of the things that's interesting to think about is all the places we don't go or see. Arnor is presumably not entirely a howling wasteland: there wouldn't be an inn at Bree of some size JUST to harbor hobbits and the locals. There don't seem to be a ton of Dunedain but there's more than like, fifty of them. There's presumably towns/villages/encampments of Dunedain; the women and the kids have to live somewhere and they're too separatist to live in Bree or Rivendell. There's some heavily-armed survivalist compounds out there in Arnor. Nessus posted:I thought the two big lines of defense for the shire were, first, that the Nazgul were like sealed up in Hell or not able to take material form until Sauron's power waxed sufficiently, and second, that they had no idea some fatass pipeweed addict had the Ring - they still probably thought it was somewhere in that river, or in the ocean, until they caught Gollum and put him to the torture. Yeah, the Shire's been safe for so long because it's way out at the arse-end of nowhere where hardly anyone except refugees goes, and the local dangers either don't move around or get mopped up by Rangers. Once Mordor had overrun Gondor and Rohan then Eriador/Arnor would have been next for a stomping. PoontifexMacksimus posted:Did anyone have a link to the proposed script? https://www.dropbox.com/s/00nxc4j8mpepf5e/John-Boorman-Lord-of-the-Rings.pdf?dl=0 Enjoy! Nessus posted:They do have the useful upside of being completely politically reliable. If the fighting Uruk-hai had been able to bring the ring to Saruman, Sauron would've been in some deep poo poo! It would have been an inconvenience to Sauron, but it's obvious that Tolkien thinks anyone who thinks getting hold of the Ring = power over Sauron is kidding themselves massively. Nessus posted:I wonder what the gently caress Saruman's long term plan there was, but the answer was that he probably didn't have one. He would have either started arming bandits or tried to raise up Uruks again. If he had been left alone long enough I imagine he would have raided Rivendell and started murdering elves moving towards the havens. It's one of the things I love about the Scouring. Saruman talks a lovely game, but when he has the power to order all things as he wills for that good which only the Wise can see you get oppression, strip-mining and Wormtongue eating Lotho.
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Jan 18, 2021 11:20
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Gats Akimbo posted:Wormtongue eating Lotho. That really escalated quickly.
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Jan 18, 2021 13:09
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Gats Akimbo posted:It would have been an inconvenience to Sauron, but it's obvious that Tolkien thinks anyone who thinks getting hold of the Ring = power over Sauron is kidding themselves massively.
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Jan 18, 2021 13:25
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Gats Akimbo posted:It's one of the things I love about the
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Jan 18, 2021 13:47
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Hasselblad posted:That really escalated quickly. Obviously you're just not Wise enough to see why it was good.  DACK FAYDEN posted:Nowhere near power over, but I think Saruman with the Ring would at least be a short-term contender on Sauron's level. He has his own army (though smaller), he could presumably command the Ringwraiths, and for all we know his ringlore studies let him figure out where some of the Seven are, or even the Three, and he can do something with that. His army's tiny in comparison and got splattered in the field by a load of horse-riding brigands. And doesn't Sauron himself have the Nine (as well as some of the Seven)? Do the Ringwraiths wear them? He might have been able to guess that two of the Three were in Rivendell and Lorien from the level of protection they had, but he very obviously didn't spot who had the third, and if Sauron couldn't command the Three it's a dead cert Saruman couldn't (at least not before the army of Mordor showed up at his gates to explain why he should cough up right now or it'll be the worse for you).
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Jan 18, 2021 13:56
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DACK FAYDEN posted:Nowhere near power over, but I think Saruman with the Ring would at least be a short-term contender on Sauron's level. He has his own army (though smaller), he could presumably command the Ringwraiths, and for all we know his ringlore studies let him figure out where some of the Seven are, or even the Three, and he can do something with that. Not a chance, or Sauron would have reacted far more strongly to the suggestion that Sarumon might have betrayed him, and certainly wouldn't have sent just a Ringwraith. And Sarumon's army is a pittance compared to just one of Sauron's, who also has a logistics base Sarumon can't dream of. As for his Ringlore, he didn't figure out that Gandalf had one when Gandalf was imprisoned by him, and I can't imagine that Sauron is going to give him much time for serious research.
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Jan 18, 2021 14:00
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Gats Akimbo posted:
In fairness, many were rent asunder by hurons.
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Jan 18, 2021 14:22
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But enough about the iroquois
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Jan 18, 2021 14:36
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skasion posted:I mean, I love Bakshi’s movie for what it is, but no way would it have been better than John Boorman filming a scene where they bury Gimli alive and beat him My personal favorite  moment in that script is when Merry uses the magic of Lembas to fantasize about performing oral sex on Galadriel.
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Jan 18, 2021 17:06
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Ravenfood posted:Not a chance, or Sauron would have reacted far more strongly to the suggestion that Sarumon might have betrayed him, and certainly wouldn't have sent just a Ringwraith. And Sarumon's army is a pittance compared to just one of Sauron's, who also has a logistics base Sarumon can't dream of. I've been reading the acoup blog who asserts that Saruman, unlike Sauron, just doesn't know how that plan a military campaign and that's why he loses.
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Jan 18, 2021 19:26
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Alhazred posted:I've been reading the acoup blog who asserts that Saruman, unlike Sauron, just doesn't know how that plan a military campaign and that's why he loses. I found that reading of Saruman to be pretty convincing - that he's a deluded megalomaniac who is a cargo cult Dark Lord maps well onto the character, both from the top down, and from the ACOUP evidence up, especially when it's put beside the reading of the similar factors in the siege of Minas Tirith (Sauron doesn't make the same kinds of dumb tactical, strategic, and operational errors).
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Jan 18, 2021 19:44
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He’s not really cargo cult. He does make rings and ... breed orcs and stuff. He’s knows what he’s doing. He just gets outmaneuvered by the good guys. Trapping Gandalf was a master stroke that almost worked !
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Jan 18, 2021 19:47
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Alhazred posted:I've been reading the acoup blog who asserts that Saruman, unlike Sauron, just doesn't know how that plan a military campaign and that's why he loses. Yeah his takedown is just brutal. Its not just that Saruman doesn't know how to plan a military campaign; he fails on basically every level of planning a military campaign that it is possible to fail on. Even despite that knowledge outside of the books, what we're told in-text makes it very clear that Saruman stands no chance against Sauron even if all of his plans go right, let alone what we gain from close reading like ACOUP.
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Jan 18, 2021 19:54
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Well that’s why he wanted to One Ring so bad.
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Jan 18, 2021 19:55
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euphronius posted:He’s not really cargo cult. He does make rings and ... breed orcs and stuff. He’s knows what he’s doing. He just gets outmaneuvered by the good guys. Have you read the articles in question? They identify a lot of subtle but silly errors that Saruman makes which show that he thinks that visible things like an imposing tower and ring lore and breeding orcs and stuff makes for a successful dark lord (hence my term "cargo cult"), but that he has nothing beyond a surface understanding of how to organize an army or win a war. The best thing about of the articles in question is that they're really long and detailed
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Jan 18, 2021 19:55
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I read Lotr that seems like enough to have an opinion. He’s not a cargo cult leader. One: he actually makes rings of power . Not fake ones that don’t do anything Two: he actually bred orcs and men together to create the Uruk hai (it’s gross to think too much about ) The tower he didn’t even build that is a weird aside. euphronius fucked around with this message at 20:00 on Jan 18, 2021 |
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Jan 18, 2021 19:57
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euphronius posted:I read Lotr that seems like enough to have an opinion. He’s not a cargo cult leader. He says he does. What do they actually do, though? Ed: seriously, read the acoup articles on Helm's Deep and Minas Tirith. They're really loving good.
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Jan 18, 2021 20:01
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euphronius posted:Well that’s why he wanted to One Ring so bad. Yeah, but I'm reasonably sure even with the Ring he doesn't beat Sauron just based on the text.
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Jan 18, 2021 20:02
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