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Vitamin P posted:That isn't true though, posting lib-tier identikit meme owns is still absolutely allowed. Do you know why they aren't? It isn't out of the goodness of the tech companies hearts I can promise you that. It's because you can drive engagement with them and generate income with little to no risk of blow-back. There tech companies may well ban certain people at certain times, but as long as they lose a big chunk of eyes they will either not make it last long or allow similar things to sprout up again. The only reason they got rid of some of the alt-right is because they are worried they are going to get sued into the ground, and there are still lots of alt-right accounts on twitter and facebook and the rest. To say "ooooh they will come for us at some point" is asinine.I'd personally say that it is not going to do anything unless there is something the equivalent of the capitol hill situation organised from the Left, because the model for tech companies is eternal growth. The Serfs are already back as of this morning too. Your paranoia is about something that already happens, but you've decided that it's important now because [???]. Why do you think this is a foregone conclusion and why do you only seem to think about this now? Josef bugman fucked around with this message at 00:14 on Jan 19, 2021 |
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Jan 19, 2021 00:11
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Vitamin P will never stop being mad they aren't allowed to say the N word
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Jan 19, 2021 00:13
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I was going to say something to that effect too, yes. The defence against blanket removal of left wing viewpoints is not philosophical free speech absolutism which the power structures can already ignore if they want to and is clearly incompatible with left wing ideas because it is rendered powerless by sealioning, it is making left wing viewpoints so integral and pervasive to online discourse that removing them would make the platforms significantly less viable. Which is the exact same reason the far right has been able to hold out until they started trying to literally execute the US government.
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Jan 19, 2021 00:16
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OwlFancier posted:I was going to say something to that effect too, yes. The defence against blanket removal of left wing viewpoints is not philosophical free speech absolutism which the power structures can already ignore if they want to and is clearly incompatible with left wing ideas because it is rendered powerless by sealioning, it is making left wing viewpoints so integral and pervasive to online discourse that removing them would make the platforms significantly less viable. Which is the exact same reason the far right has been able to hold out until they started trying to literally execute the US government. Exactly! Like now facebook is going to have to deal with losing not only a fair few people but worse, from their perspective, a lot of engagement. These were the boomers clicking on gold, dick pill and gun ads on the various Chud social pages.
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Jan 19, 2021 00:21
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Josef bugman posted:To say "ooooh they will come for us at some point" is asinine. We know this, it's just not going to do anything unless there is something the equivalent of the capitol hill situation organised from the Left, because the model for tech companies is eternal growth. The Serfs are already back as of this morning too. It isn't though, the post exactly before this talked about The Rules as though ToS is some intristically good, apolitical god-like meaningful thing rather than the whims of a scummy tech leadership, it isn't asinine whatsoever to point out that's bullshit, especially because your initial point was 'yeah it's bullshit but lefties have suffered more from it already uwu!'. The very obvious counterpoint to your We're Doomed theory is that the left could just defend free speech, larping insurrection poo poo is absolutely irrelevant to that concept. Glad the serfs got their channel back though they seem nice.
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Jan 19, 2021 00:22
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forkboy84 posted:Vitamin P will never stop being mad they aren't allowed to say the N word Hes salivating over slurring
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Jan 19, 2021 00:22
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You can't just "defend free speech" unconditionally and absolutely, because otherwise you will be able to do nothing but talk, it would carry an obligation to talk to anyone who want to talk to you, about anything they want to talk about. Necessarily human beings need a way to shut down speech they do not wish to engage with, and a lack of free speech absolutism in society is a reflection of that necessity, it is applying that concept to collective spaces, that we can agree together that we do not need to re-litigate certain subjects because they are already settled and they are not worth devoting our time to every time one rear end in a top hat comes up and demands to relitigate them. It can be utilized cynically by governments and companies, yes, but the counter to that cynicism is not free speech absolutism because that concept doesn't make sense, it is a different form of conditionality rooted in beliefs you can get enough other people to buy into. Free speech absolutism is the domain of assholes for a reason, because the only people who benefit from it are people who want to prevent consensus from being reached, or people who want to argue extremely fringe ideas that for some reason invite immediate and blanket condemnation from most people. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 00:28 on Jan 19, 2021 |
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Jan 19, 2021 00:26
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OwlFancier posted:I was going to say something to that effect too, yes. The defence against blanket removal of left wing viewpoints is not philosophical free speech absolutism which the power structures can already ignore if they want to and is clearly incompatible with left wing ideas because it is rendered powerless by sealioning, it is making left wing viewpoints so integral and pervasive to online discourse that removing them would make the platforms significantly less viable. Which is the exact same reason the far right has been able to hold out until they started trying to literally execute the US government. You are literally giving up the leftiest principle in the existence of humanity for 'marketplace of ideas' shite and you've even built in the economic conditions into it it too this is a bafflingly stupid take.
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Jan 19, 2021 00:28
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Vitamin P posted:It isn't though, the post exactly before this talked about The Rules as though ToS is some intristically good, apolitical god-like meaningful thing rather than the whims of a scummy tech leadership, it isn't asinine whatsoever to point out that's bullshit, especially because your initial point was 'yeah it's bullshit but lefties have suffered more from it already uwu!'. Of course not. Those things are going to be used dickishly by the folks in charge all the drat time. The proper thing is to build stuff separately. Ben Shapiro isn't going anywhere for instance, and I don't think a lot of the Alt-Right are going to be gone from twitter, so why do you think that it will affect anyone else? What the actual gently caress? No. I am not going to defend loving Fascist's freedom of Speech. I refuse to protect the freedom of speech of anyone I'd probably punch in the mouth for being a prick. Why worry about this "now"? We've known that they are at the whims of lovely tech billionaires, the operative idea is "why should we worry about that more at the moment, beyond the weird idea that there is an equivalence between Left and Right discourse?" Josef bugman fucked around with this message at 00:33 on Jan 19, 2021 |
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Jan 19, 2021 00:29
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In the context of social media you literally are on a marketplace of ideas, as in the ideas that are tolerated are ones that are marketable, because social media is a capitalist enterprise and operates according to those principles. I am not building those economic conditions into the response, I am observing the ones that are already built into the platform by the nature of its existence and operation. If social media is your battleground of choice then you can't pretend it doesn't operate as a marketplace, with what is allowed to be traded being based on what the marketplace owners can extract the largest tariff from.
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Jan 19, 2021 00:30
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Vitamin P posted:That isn't true though, posting lib-tier identikit meme owns is still absolutely allowed. clearly you've never been trans on the internet
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Jan 19, 2021 00:33
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The whole 'cancel culture' poo poo is the most selective of selective outrages, after the silencing of any voices deemed too radical for 'polite discourse', after the delisting of any videos that mentioned that gay people existed as 'sexual content', after the blanket removal of chemistry content for containing chemicals, after all press outlets deciding that moderate left positions aren't even 'worth discussion', it's a bunch of pseudo-right reactionary fuckwits getting called fuckwits for being fuckwits that makes the national debate, then some of them got banned for trying to do a coup. The time to make a big deal out of it was a few years back, and joining in with the current contrived outrage just seems like doing it on their terms.
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Jan 19, 2021 00:38
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Josef bugman posted:Why worry about this "now"? We've known that they are at the whims of lovely tech billionaires, the operative idea is "why should we worry about that more at the moment, beyond the weird idea that there is an equivalence between Left and Right discourse?" "Now" well when the gently caress else are people supposed to worry about anything and btw in the last 2 months the UK Labour Party literally banned members from mentioning the objectively true fact that establishment media coverage about antisemitism in the party was exaggerated to the point that it was functionally a lie. There are CLPs that have been scorched-earth all banned from the Party because they weren't willing to lie, and this lovely culture that we should be unforgiving and Censorship Is Good Actually you love so much directly contributed to them getting gently caress all support. Even aside from the principle of the thing there is actually a very salient 'now'. The number of you defending big tech having control of allowed discourse is loving astounding, do you think the Sun and the Daily Mail have had so much influence accidently?
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Jan 19, 2021 00:48
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Big tech is not going to magically not have control if people start arguing about free speech a lot, their control is rooted in material conditions and will not be defeated by philosophy.
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Jan 19, 2021 00:50
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Vitamin P posted:You are literally giving up the leftiest principle in the existence of humanity for 'marketplace of ideas' shite and you've even built in the economic conditions into it it too this is a bafflingly stupid take. Free speech is an explicitly liberal concept, it's not the leftiest principle in the existence of humanity you goober. I will lazily post the most important demand from the Petropavlosk Declaration: "To establish freedom of speech and press for workers and peasants, for Anarchists and left Socialist parties" Never going to defend the free speech of class enemies, racists and reactionaries, sorry.
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Jan 19, 2021 00:51
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OwlFancier posted:Big tech is not going to magically not have control if people start arguing about free speech a lot, their control is rooted in material conditions and will not be defeated by philosophy. This! We always knew tech companies aren't our friends and to ask me to go "no please don't tell Donald Trump to gently caress off" in the vague hope that it will prevent, I dunno, a Palestinian org getting banned from twitter? I don't think it works that way. Vitamin P posted:The number of you defending big tech having control of allowed discourse is loving astounding, do you think the Sun and the Daily Mail have had so much influence accidently? Do you think that complaining about Trump getting banned will result in a resurgence of Leftism? The various different Leftist groups that do organise through social media are usually of the Liberal variety, those that actually fully protest use word of mouth or other networks for the most part because they kept getting banned.
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Jan 19, 2021 00:59
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Vitamin P posted:It isn't though, the post exactly before this talked about The Rules as though ToS is some intristically good, apolitical god-like meaningful thing rather than the whims of a scummy tech leadership MrNemo posted:Yeah this current online 'purging and censoring' is right wing posters having the rules actually applied to them rather than letting them threaten to beat someone to death for a political view and 'well who can really say if they had hate in their hearts?' as the response. Leftists on Twitter and other platforms get suspended or banned all the time because they said something rude (rather than violent or threatening) or, better yet, quoted someone else saying something horrible to bring attention to and got banned instead. you're reading a lot into this post that I really don't see. the rules that the platforms purport to be run by have been inadequately applied in many cases and now they have been applied slightly more in a way that stops the alt-right advocating for fascist revolution. that doesn't mean the rules are good or that the companies deserve to hold that authority it just means that at least one can post on twitter with fewer nazis running around really through a lot of this discussion you seem to be arguing with what you imagine people say rather than what they actually say. i don't think anyone here is saying that tech companies having control of discourse is a good thing, just that fighting for the rights of nazis to have twitter accounts is not really going to do much to prevent the poo poo state of discourse. there are opinions people can have other than a) "boy i love facebook and twitter having massive control of the internet, this is great, no issues" and b) "I am annoyed that nazis get banned from the internet" but for some reason you don't seem to be acknowledging this
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Jan 19, 2021 01:04
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OwlFancier posted:Big tech is not going to magically not have control if people start arguing about free speech a lot, their control is rooted in material conditions and will not be defeated by philosophy. Cowardice argument, the defeat of material conditions hardship will neccesarily depend on philosophy, "people shouldn't suffer pain needlessly" is 'philosophy'. forkboy84 posted:Free speech is an explicitly liberal concept, it's not the leftiest principle in the existence of humanity you goober. Lazy posting seems to be your gimmick but to indulge, free speech is about allowing agency to the poorest, most vulnerable people in any society regardless of the social mores of the time. When you say you don't support the speech of X people you're saying you support the supression of X people and protip, X varies. Congrats that you'd be the enthustiastic French collaborator I guess not sure that's something to be proud of.
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Jan 19, 2021 01:06
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Trades posted:Please don’t do this, not great advice at the best of times and positively terrible advice right at this moment. Entirely depends on the medication in question. If it's something you will literally die without and you can't go through the usual channels it's a failsafe. Yes, doing it for antihistamines would be very dumb, but I'm not going into DKA for anyone if I can avoid it. Trades posted:We’re talking about a situation where someone is at risk of a repeat prescription dropping off at an unspecified point in future, not where they have hours of a life essential medication left. GPs are able to offer same day prescriptions, and someone has already mentioned temporary registration. I don't know what medication the poster's partner needs and I specifically said that it was an option in extremis, if the GP bureaucracy fucks up and leaves you in the lurch where you're imminently about to become critically ill. I have been in a similar situation and had some less than encouraging experiences with non-specialist healthcare staff who didn't seem to understand that I needed insulin urgently and it couldn't just wait the week and a half they needed to get me registered. It's one of the reasons I make sure to keep a couple month's stockpile at least these days. ThomasPaine fucked around with this message at 01:15 on Jan 19, 2021 |
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Jan 19, 2021 01:08
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Vitamin P posted:Cowardice argument, the defeat of material conditions hardship will neccesarily depend on philosophy, "people shouldn't suffer pain needlessly" is 'philosophy'. Then make a compelling material argument as to why we should give a poo poo about Nazi's getting banned. If something changes and Leftists start getting banned (more than they already are) I am sure we will be there, but there isn't a reason to give a hot tin gently caress as to some arse called "RAHOWA1488" can no longer post. Vitamin P posted:Lazy posting seems to be your gimmick but to indulge, free speech is about allowing agency to the poorest, most vulnerable people in any society regardless of the social mores of the time. When you say you don't support the speech of X people you're saying you support the supression of X people and protip, X varies. Congrats that you'd be the enthustiastic French collaborator I guess not sure that's something to be proud of. The poorest people of the time are gay trans people, they are often scared off of twitter by Petit-Bourgeois chuds whom foolish people have mistaken for the working class. The poorest and most vulnerable people are also not posting on twitter.com.
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Jan 19, 2021 01:14
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But the philosophical position of "we should never restrict any speech or ideas" is weaker than the position of "we should encourage desirable speech and ideas and discourage undesirable speech and ideas" because the former, again, makes no loving sense. I don't want a society where everyone endlessly argues about whether communism or fascism is right, I want a society where everyone accepts that left wing ideas are better than right wing ones and doesn't give right wing ones any real credence. I want a society where my preferred ideas are so dominant that the ideas they oppose cannot gain ground or even be properly conceptualized because they go against so many deeply ingrained beliefs of so many people. A society where everyone just argues the same loving thing over and over because we cannot just say some ideas are bad and should gently caress off without relitigating the entire loving thing every five minutes is some kind of guardian article hell.
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Jan 19, 2021 01:16
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https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1351302000240160768 Kinda frustrating that the only time I see anyone on the left outside of Wales even mention Welsh politics is when they can use it to dunk on Starmer but, hey, I guess that's as good a cause as any.
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Jan 19, 2021 01:17
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Vitamin P posted:Cowardice argument, the defeat of material conditions hardship will neccesarily depend on philosophy, "people shouldn't suffer pain needlessly" is 'philosophy'. comparing someone who said "i dont think nazis should have free speech" to vichy french seems like a hell of a leap, OP.
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Jan 19, 2021 01:18
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Vitamin P posted:Lazy posting seems to be your gimmick but to indulge, free speech is about allowing agency to the poorest, most vulnerable people in any society regardless of the social mores of the time. When you say you don't support the speech of X people you're saying you support the supression of X people and protip, X varies. Congrats that you'd be the enthustiastic French collaborator I guess not sure that's something to be proud of. That's certainly a novel description of free speech but not actually true in any way. Very few people are actually free speech absolutist and those who are also tend towards having very strong opinions on the age consent. Most people who aren't American style libertarians support some form of law to restrict defaming someone's reputation with falsehoods for example. Or to protect national security or prevent inciting rebellion or treason, etc. Can't say I really give a gently caress about treason or inciting rebellion but my line is clearly about depriving free speech from the bourgeoisie, racists, fascists and the like. Not really sure I see the comparison with French collaborators but I guess go off king. Just seems like you have this incredibly naive conception of free speech. Clearly I think shitposting is important too because it's about the extent of my willingness to discuss & engage with contemporary British politics at present but I don't really think "first they came for the racists and I did not speak out and then they came for me" really applies. Yes, liberals will quite happily restrict freedom of speech from leftists but it is an entirely separate issue from freedom of speech for the far right. Where you draw the line isn't some abstraction, it matters.
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Jan 19, 2021 01:34
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Information is a utility of immense socioeconomic value, and wholly unregulated free speech behaves exactly like any other wholly unregulated free market. That in and of itself should offer some clues about how leftists might want to approach it. I mean, Christ, the whole point of socialist philosophy is 'these things are really good and useful, but we can't trust capitalism to safely and freely distribute them, so here's what we ought to do instead'. It feels like a great deal of the argument over the past couple of pages is people going back and forth over how best to reinvent a perfectly serviceable wheel when they're already inside a moving vehicle.
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Jan 19, 2021 01:35
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https://twitter.com/SebastianEPayne/status/1351261084741758977?s=19 Jesus Christ.
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Jan 19, 2021 01:39
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Gonzo McFee posted:https://twitter.com/SebastianEPayne/status/1351261084741758977?s=19 I'm just gonna give 1p to an unemployed person instead. Doing my bit.
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Jan 19, 2021 01:41
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Vitamin P posted:That isn't true though, posting lib-tier identikit meme owns is still absolutely allowed. My guy, I can get called a predator out to kill and rape women and have TERFs threatening to kill me and twitter does nothing, I tell them to gently caress off and I get made to delete the tweet
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Jan 19, 2021 01:54
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stev posted:I'm just gonna give 1p to an unemployed person instead. Doing my bit. loving. Hell. They could raise the top rate of income tax by 10p and it'd still be lower than it was the first two terms Thatcher was in power
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Jan 19, 2021 01:55
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Gonzo McFee posted:https://twitter.com/SebastianEPayne/status/1351261084741758977?s=19 Rishi Sunak: we don't want people on benefits to get used to existing without crushing poverty. Also my wife and I have more money than the Queen
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Jan 19, 2021 02:05
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I like that they have to mention fuel duty lest people think the actual progressive tax hikes are a good idea.
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Jan 19, 2021 02:05
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Pistol_Pete posted:He's also got one of those cartoon avatars that correlate strongly with being an insufferable prick. Rumda posted:My guy, I can get called a predator out to kill and rape women and have TERFs threatening to kill me and twitter does nothing, I tell them to gently caress off and I get made to delete the tweet 5 years ago Clementine Ford decided to share some of the messages Facebook were telling her didn't violate their content policy. Except when she posted them, she got a ban for posting violent and hateful content. Even though the only reason she was posting them was because FB refused to classify them as violent and hateful when they were sent to her.
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Jan 19, 2021 04:46
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stev posted:I'm just gonna give 1p to an unemployed person instead. Doing my bit. When they say 1p they mean 1p on the pound or a 1% increase. It's still horrific but they're not saying they're killing poor people for the sake of saving a penny off people's tax bills.
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Jan 19, 2021 07:59
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Gonzo McFee posted:https://twitter.com/SebastianEPayne/status/1351261084741758977?s=19 What we value most: cronyism What we don't value: poor people being able to survive on benefits
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Jan 19, 2021 08:11
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Conservatives really value that 1p okay, its basically their whole reason for existence. If they didn't value that 1p that makes them no better than a hummus-guzzling guardian reader and they can't have that, its been hard enough 'keeping things C' during lockdown.
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Jan 19, 2021 09:07
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The UKMT Solidarity Fund Committee elections have been completed and the counting finished. We had 8 candidates for 5 positions, 32 valid ballots and 1 spoilt. The newly elected committee are: Maugrim, AceClown, CaptainFargle, Tsietisin and TheDPRK. Totalled and worked ballots: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/15iWzILWgY_CjjixCAyrtna1n6AArN9cAG20z2E1abUU/edit#gid=2130859552 Raw data with usernames: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12y5YLYuhiTBF-TMrP8YmUQ0uadPswE5rdbnPMCPL3pU/edit#gid=1542130370 Congratulations to the winners, commiserations to the other three candiates, may as few people as possible need their assistance in this coming year.
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Jan 19, 2021 09:41
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https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1351302000240160768 Kieth's hosed it
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Jan 19, 2021 09:48
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justcola posted:Conservatives really value that 1p okay, its basically their whole reason for existence. If they didn't value that 1p that makes them no better than a hummus-guzzling guardian reader and they can't have that, its been hard enough 'keeping things C' during lockdown. "Look after the pennies and the pounds will look after themselves"
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Jan 19, 2021 09:49
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Refreshing degree of honesty from Farrage with his new anti-lockdown party, re-gently caress
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Jan 19, 2021 09:52
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Nick Ferrari on LBC at the moment defending the idea that the police should use kid spies to find drug dealers. Haven't laughed like this in a few weeks, totally batshit amazing. happyhippy fucked around with this message at 09:57 on Jan 19, 2021 |
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