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KVeezy3 posted:Now that we've established that a 'good protagonist' can be measured directly by their charm levels, we should also ask: why is it bad that an abandoned former child soldier orphan isn't personable, and why is it a good thing that an abandoned orphan on the harsh world of Tatooine is so affable? Not sure what your point is. The actor who played Jyn Erso is super boring to watch. The character also seems to have been ruined in editing. It makes it very dramatically inert. Anakin, on other hand, was cast very well and Hayden did an excellent job.
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Jan 18, 2021 17:36
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All but the last third or so of Rogue One was ruined in editing.
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Jan 18, 2021 17:50
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I think the idea with Rogue One was that Jyn herself wasn't supposed to be providing all of the personality, she was supposed to have this motley crew of interesting characters around her. But in the end that didn't really work out, none of the other characters were particularly good, and certainly not anywhere near the level of what Ford's Han Solo did for the OT. The charisma doesn't have to come from the main protagonist but it has to come from somewhere.
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Jan 18, 2021 17:58
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Basebf555 posted:I think the idea with Rogue One was that Jyn herself wasn't supposed to be providing all of the personality, she was supposed to have this motley crew of interesting characters around her. But in the end that didn't really work out, none of the other characters were particularly good, and certainly not anywhere near the level of what Ford's Han Solo did for the OT. The charisma doesn't have to come from the main protagonist but it has to come from somewhere. K2 and the monks are the ‘likeable’ characters. But the way that Jyn’s characterization works is that the trip through the film, visiting her multiple estranged parents, is an externalization of what’s going on with her. Like, Saw Guevara represents an aspect of herself (i.e. her radicalism) that she’s literally going back to and re-evaluating. So we go over her reasons for quitting, and then her recommitment to the cause after being reminded that Saw is still a good guy. When Saw chooses to die, that’s him passing his mantle to her while discarding his too-human failings. This form of storytelling is a political statement, since it’s a move away from the ‘charismatic individual’ as agent of change and towards the community. See: Man Of Steel’s ‘uncharismatic’ Superman that good people nonetheless gather around.
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Jan 18, 2021 18:16
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Halloween Jack posted:Rogue One would've been great if Jyn had just said "Uh, did anybody order the huge laser? How about NO" right before she got vaporized. "In Moffest day, in Moffest night, no evil shall escape my sight. Let those who worship Rebels' might, beware my power, the Empire's light!" - Orson Krennic 
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Jan 18, 2021 18:47
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Rogue One is the only new star wars with a decent space fight
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Jan 18, 2021 18:52
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Felicity Jones is a good actress and does a fine job with what the character calls for. Plus she's a Brummie (respect!), whereas Daisey Ridley is a mere Londoner (yawn) :p Ridley clearly does what she can but it's not her fault, Rey is just a very poorly written character.
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Jan 18, 2021 20:12
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Jewmanji posted:Not sure what your point is. The actor who played Jyn Erso is super boring to watch. The character also seems to have been ruined in editing. It makes it very dramatically inert. Anakin, on other hand, was cast very well and Hayden did an excellent job. My point is that people also derided Hayden's Anakin for being uncharismatic and boring, and deemed such an absolute failure that the performance couldn't possibly be artistic choices made by the director/actor in the context of the story. Once this is pointed out, then it moves on to, Oh so you're saying they made it bad on purpose?. And of course not. Jyn is played cold and detached through most of the film to contrast with her depicted childhood and, as she encounters the traumatic events throughout the film, intense displays of emotional vulnerability. This all builds up to her impassioned plea to the Rebel Alliance, which people chided for 'coming out of nowhere'.
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Jan 18, 2021 21:13
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"Relatable" characters are part of the old Reagan order, now in its senescence.
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Jan 18, 2021 21:31
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porfiria posted:I just remembered how the Sequel Trilogy made use of legendary actor Max Von Sydow and loled. They loving wasted Ming the Merciless. He should have played Snoke!
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Jan 18, 2021 22:01
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Not to defend JJ/TFA but MvS was not going to do anything but a cameo in 2015. If you can get him for a thing you get him because he's Max von Sydow. For all its flaws the first movie set up kylo well by having him execute unarmed MvS and Ford
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Jan 18, 2021 22:10
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Ingmar terdman posted:Not to defend JJ/TFA but MvS was not going to do anything but a cameo in 2015. If you can get him for a thing you get him because he's Max von Sydow. For all its flaws the first movie set up kylo well by having him execute unarmed MvS and Ford Snoke is a cameo though.
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Jan 18, 2021 22:18
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It's a bit funny how little anyone in TFA cares about von Sydow's character. He seems to have strong ties to the Skywalker family but nobody ever stops to ask what happened to grampa dirtshirt later in the movie. He is forgotten as soon as him and Ren are done with their Vader/Obi Wan schpiel.
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Jan 18, 2021 22:30
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MonsieurChoc posted:Snoke is a cameo though. Who was clearly going to come back in a future movie, though.
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Jan 18, 2021 22:38
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he only has like ten more lines than max gave right?
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Jan 18, 2021 22:38
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Basebf555 posted:I think the idea with Rogue One was that Jyn herself wasn't supposed to be providing all of the personality, she was supposed to have this motley crew of interesting characters around her. But in the end that didn't really work out, none of the other characters were particularly good, and certainly not anywhere near the level of what Ford's Han Solo did for the OT. I'm genuinely curious if the Andor series can retroactively make me care about him or any single character in R1.
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Jan 18, 2021 22:40
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Cheesus posted:I thought it less the characters and more that there were too many of them. They went from getting scraps of screentime since their introductions to nothing once the space battle started and you had to pay attention to another equal sized group. I mean that follows along with the war movie element, it's a big group and you learn a little about each one and then they all die. I think the film has its issues but the final act really ties it together.
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Jan 18, 2021 23:04
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Cheesus posted:I thought it less the characters and more that there were too many of them. They went from getting scraps of screentime since their introductions to nothing once the space battle started and you had to pay attention to another equal sized group. Each member of the titular Rogue One squadron explains their predicament: Jyn wants to avenge the ideals of her parents, Cassian wants to make all of the sacrifices people like him have made worth it, the ex-pilot of the Empire wants to make things right, K-2SO wants to prove himself worthy of belief, and the monks want to reach a spiritual conclusion. And in the third act, they all make the ultimate sacrifice to propel their comrades further. Here you've extricated yourself from the process entirely of whether or not you should care about the characters, as they must further prove themselves likeable enough after death to be worth investing in and rooting for.
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Jan 18, 2021 23:29
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You don't have to give a charismatic performance to portray a sympathetic character... ...but it helps!!
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Jan 19, 2021 00:09
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The biggest problem with Rogue One is that it never slows down. The characters are racing to go somewhere or do something throughout the entire film, and there's never any quiet moments for them to pause and interact with each other. Saving Private Ryan had a ton of these: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJr-4OZPwLk
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Jan 19, 2021 02:36
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Rewatched TPM a few days ago, and woof, it was rougher than I remember. Mostly because of jar jar and the gungans being very...cringey, for a lack of better term. They work as a great foil to the jedi though. Obi-wan and Qui-gon act with a sneering sense of superiority and can't help but show their disdain at every available moment when it comes to the gungans. It's also kind of funny when you realize that this qui gon dude is an rear end who just does whatever he wants, without any sort of respect of others, and handwaves it with it being "the will of the force". He's the pure ID of the jedi, he's what you get when you strip the jedi of their  and that's what ultimately gets him killed. If he waited for obi-wan instead of rushing in on his own they'd probably have won. Neat detail: Everytime Qui-gon fights Maul he gets winded. In the desert, as soon as he gets on the ship he collapses in a sweaty heap. On Naboo, when those weird shield wall things come up, he's visibly exhausted and meditates to try to recover some energy while both Obi-wan and maul pace frenetically. Anakin meanwhile wasn't nearly as annoying as I remember him being. He was in fact mostly harmless. Also a bit interesting that the supposed wisened Jedi master is completely oblivious to the sinister machinations that even his dumb apprentice picked up on. And which he then got told off for  Also, Padme's fascination with the kid is a wee bit creepy. Also also, what is up with the decoy thing? Like the decoy is ordering the queen to go service the droid seemed really sus.
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Jan 19, 2021 02:48
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KVeezy3 posted:Jyn was definitely still an extremist child soldier in the theatrical cut (Saw called her one of his best soldiers), but as you've noted the reasoning given by Saw is spurious - that he abandoned her because people were beginning to suspect her real identity. You’re right, I forgot about that line, but I’d say that the movie still obfuscates that a lot. That line is still in, but otherwise Jyn is mostly presented as an *outsider* to the struggle who finally finds a reason to truly care because of a family connection, not a disillusioned rebel coming *back* to the fold. Or more accurately, both versions of the character co-exist awkwardly in the same film.
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Jan 19, 2021 04:14
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McCloud posted:Rewatched TPM a few days ago, and woof, it was rougher than I remember. Mostly because of jar jar and the gungans being very...cringey, for a lack of better term. They work as a great foil to the jedi though. Obi-wan and Qui-gon act with a sneering sense of superiority and can't help but show their disdain at every available moment when it comes to the gungans. It's also kind of funny when you realize that this qui gon dude is an rear end who just does whatever he wants, without any sort of respect of others, and handwaves it with it being "the will of the force". He's the pure ID of the jedi, he's what you get when you strip the jedi of their "The Jedi are wrong for their sneering superiority. I am right for finding Gungans cringe."
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Jan 19, 2021 04:38
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McCloud posted:It's also kind of funny when you realize that this qui gon dude is an rear end who just does whatever he wants, without any sort of respect of others, and handwaves it with it being "the will of the force". He's the pure ID of the jedi, he's what you get when you strip the jedi of their Qui-gon gets attacked by Maul first when he tries to take Anakin off Tatooine and second when he bring Anakin into a war zone. It makes Maul seem almost like a cosmic immune reaction trying to take the old man out for causing problems. It rules.
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Jan 19, 2021 04:44
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McCloud posted:Also also, what is up with the decoy thing? Like the decoy is ordering the queen to go service the droid seemed really sus. Anytime you get a chance to gently caress over the boss with bitch work, you take it. Nah, for real tho, she probably knows the queen likes to be hands on with things, or the queen has a signal to tell her to put her in the action of something.
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Jan 19, 2021 04:49
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Shiroc posted:"The Jedi are wrong for their sneering superiority. I am right for finding Gungans cringe." I mean, the gungans being a bit obnoxious is no reason to treat them like poo poo. Schwarzwald posted:Qui-gon gets attacked by Maul first when he tries to take Anakin off Tatooine and second when he bring Anakin into a war zone. It makes Maul seem almost like a cosmic immune reaction trying to take the old man out for causing problems. It rules. Well, if finding the boy was the will of the force, then surely him getting merked by Maul was the will of the force too, starting a sequence of events that ultimately leads to the destruction of the Jedi order. So maybe you're not too far of ruddiger posted:Anytime you get a chance to gently caress over the boss with bitch work, you take it. I really like the idea of the intern ordering the ceo to what is basically latrine duty though
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Jan 19, 2021 05:02
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ruddiger posted:Anytime you get a chance to gently caress over the boss with bitch work, you take it. IIRC some EU stuff does mention that Padme has signals to her decoy handmaiden to indicate what she's to be 'ordered' to do.
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Jan 19, 2021 05:12
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Padme Amidala nervously signaling 'switch back!' repeatedly as the decoy declares new droid rights
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Jan 19, 2021 05:42
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All of this talk of Jyn being boring or dull is news to me. She's reserved, sure but it's a movie with a couple of big performances in it, so it's OK for her to be a lower key.
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Jan 19, 2021 05:55
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The problem with Rogue One are the lack of little spaces to breathe and just be present with the characters. That and the soundtrack is so dull it actively detracts from the movie. Still a top 5 Star War tho.
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Jan 19, 2021 06:18
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Another thing Rogue One has going for it is the planet effects (viewing from space or whatever). The planets looked more realistic than in any other SW movie to me.
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Jan 19, 2021 06:58
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More Rogue One thoughts: Jyn's character suffers from the problem that while she's great on paper—former Rebel that got disillusioned and stopped caring until brought back in against her will, only to regains her revolutionary zeal—the movie fails to effectively express this, in large part because it does a lot of telling and very little showing on the root causes of Jyn's disillusionment. And this is obviously a big problem, because Jyn is our central character and our frame of reference for the story, so a failure to connect with her is going to inevitably result in a failure to connect with the film (It didn't help either that the first act was just a mess of editing, with constant jumps in both time and space for establishing scenes that, on the whole, didn't establish much but sure wasted a lot of time). Had the movie actually taken the time to slow down at some point to put Jyn's disillusionment into focus, and contrast it to the other character's reasons for fighting,* it would have been a much stronger and far more emotional film. *like seriously though, imagine if the film had taken a moment to compare K2-S0 and Candor—both of them will loudly declare they have to fight the Empire, but for wildly different reasons, and taking any time to explore that/contrasting it against Jyn, who chose not to fight, and the pilot dude, who did make the choice, would have almost certainly made for a much, much deeper and thematically coherent movie.
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Jan 19, 2021 07:41
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Michael Giacchino is no John Williams, but I respect that he tried his best anyway. Rogue One put a tremendous amount of emphasis on being an aesthetic match for the effects in A New Hope, with increased fidelity and elaboration. I get an impression of wanting to show off all the new props, and to drop in cameos just as a way of "checking in" with familiar characters. Both of these extend to the use of digital face doubles as well. But its sense of homage doesn't extend to the writing. The characters are very guarded and tend to speak obliquely, meaning the proceedings lack a certain Lucasian melodrama. Much of the plot revolves around Cassian and Jyn being distrustful of each others' intentions, which a major theme of the story, represented most extremely in the characters of Saw, who suspects even loved ones of being assassins, and K-2SO, who is explicitly incapable of tact. "Who trusts whom?" is in virtually every scene up until they land on Scarif, with some very subtle permutations.That could've used more time to develop, and simplifying the land battle in the third act might've bought more time to let that tension marinate earlier. But it sort of dissolves by the end anyway, partly because the viewer knows they're all being honest, and, more importantly, because the mere existence of the Death Star renders all of this intrigue moot. One thing I thought was weird in my most recent viewing is that the Rebel Alliance tended to use the word "rebel" rather than "alliance" to describe themselves to themselves even in formal situations. A branding thing?
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Jan 19, 2021 10:51
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The hackjob editing probably helped destroy the attempted sense of intrigue, I'd wager.
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Jan 19, 2021 11:02
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McCloud posted:I really like the idea of the intern ordering the ceo to what is basically latrine duty though The original Undercover Boss. Ghost Leviathan posted:IIRC some EU stuff does mention that Padme has signals to her decoy handmaiden to indicate what she's to be 'ordered' to do. It's not in the movie, though, so that doesn't really count for anything.
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Jan 19, 2021 14:14
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On Rogue One's music – did anybody notice how close the theme was to Star Wars knock-off Starcrash? I mean, it makes sense as both composers were likely told "do the Star Wars theme but different" but still. e: Rogue One – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYxsAHuY2G8&t=11s Starcrash – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6853vO0ies&t=43s It's a score that I'm sure Giacchino must've heard at some point either way, because he's an enormous fan of John Barry (and has imitated Barry's scores in other movies). Almost Blue fucked around with this message at 20:12 on Jan 19, 2021 |
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Jan 19, 2021 20:09
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I'm almost certain SMG has noticed and commented on it.
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Jan 19, 2021 20:10
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Wasn't the R1 soundtrack done in some ridiculously short amount of time? Or am I thinking of a different SW film
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Jan 19, 2021 21:58
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Acebuckeye13 posted:Wasn't the R1 soundtrack done in some ridiculously short amount of time? Or am I thinking of a different SW film I think Giacchino whipped it up in a couple months/weeks. Alexandre Desplat was originally pulled in to do the score but got let go and all his music got scrapped during the reshoots only a few months before the premier.
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Jan 19, 2021 22:14
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Giacchino reportedly had a pretty small window to get it done. Mind you, John Williams did ANH in about the same amount of time.
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Jan 19, 2021 22:27
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