Tolkien's Middle-Earth: He was just Beorn this way

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > The Book Barn > Tolkien's Middle-Earth: He was just Beorn this way

Shiroc: May 16, 2009; Sorry I'm late

I read the Helm's Deep chapter last night and I love the elegance with which Tolkien shifts back and forth between the broader strategic view, individual little skirmishes like the battle in front of the Hornburg gate through the side door, and lulls in the battle. I like how he very freely moves between character perspectives until Gimli and Eomer get pushed into the caves, at which point they are a mystery. It gives a sense of battlefield fog of war where before you can move between all of the main characters when they can reasonably see each other's locations but not once they get separated.

# ? Jan 20, 2021 01:53

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# ? Jun 7, 2024 16:18

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

Anshu posted:

The Moon and Sun first rose after Galadriel had already arrived in Middle-earth by crossing over the Grinding Ice.

Thats what the myth says yes. That's the whole issue.

# ? Jan 20, 2021 02:01

Anshu: Jan 9, 2019

euphronius posted:

Thats what the myth says yes. That's the whole issue.

So your assertion is that, if Bilbo goes up to Galadriel on the boat to Valinor and asks her if she saw the Sun rise for the first time, and she says "yes", she will be lying?

# ? Jan 20, 2021 02:13

SHISHKABOB: Nov 30, 2012; Fun Shoe

Anshu posted:

So your assertion is that, if Bilbo goes up to Galadriel on the boat to Valinor and asks her if she saw the Sun rise for the first time, and she says "yes", she will be lying?

I think it's ok for the story to be ambiguous about its mythic status.

# ? Jan 20, 2021 02:15

skasion: Feb 13, 2012; Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?

Omnomnomnivore posted:

Isn't it like

Tolkien writes a bunch of stories that sound like just-so myths from a fallen age looking back to a heroic one.

Then he writes some novels with these stories are in the background - including bringing some immortal characters from the myths into the novel. He could have done it as "the people in this world believe Venus is a guy on a boat", except then he made that guy's son a character in the book.

Now he has the problem of reconciling his myths that the sun and moon are spirits caught in an eternal dance of unrequited love with his novel that carefully mapped out real-world phases of the moon based on real astronomy, and he never quite finished it to his satisfaction in his lifetime.

The essential tension is that Tolkien wanted his stories (all of them) to be set in our world, and not a timeless god-knows-where setting like Eddison�s Mercury or Lindsay�s Tormance. At certain times in his career he was more attached to this than others. Originally of course he insisted on tying it all in literal terms to the prehistory of the English people, and backed away from this concept repeatedly later on, cutting out the Eriol frame story of the Beleriand epics, reintroducing that as frame to the Numenor stuff and then removing that as well. But he also was deeply attached to mythic/religious concepts like geocentrism which don�t necessarily scan with the modern enlightened perspective telling us things like �the earth goes around the sun actually� and �England was not originally inhabited by elves�. Hobbit and Lord of the Rings are both also driven by this conflict, featuring relatively �modern�, mundane protagonists leading happy normal lives, who have to go adventure off and encounter the world of myth and ancient things and kind of get blown away by it.

# ? Jan 20, 2021 02:25

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

Anshu posted:

So your assertion is that, if Bilbo goes up to Galadriel on the boat to Valinor and asks her if she saw the Sun rise for the first time, and she says "yes", she will be lying?

We have no idea what she would say.

# ? Jan 20, 2021 02:29

CommonShore: Jun 6, 2014; A true renaissance man

Another thing I like about this reading of the Nazgul, and the whole Sauron's power question, and the mysteries of the capabilities of various characters is that it brings the stories back down to Earth, so to speak. Sauron doesn't have to be a powerful magician or foe in combat - he has extended powers, sure, but he's dangerous because he has tactics, strategy, logicstics, and reconnaissance - some magical, some technical. He also has engineering, propaganda, and political mechanisms. It's those things, combined with ill intent, that make him a danger to the world.

Sauruman has some of these without others, and he's ineffective. Galadriel has some of these but without others, and she's ineffective. Likewise Elrond, and the Balrog.

I can't actually think of a single place in the books where Sauron unambiguously uses a magic power. Even the "Eye of Sauron" has a technical explanation within the internal logic of the setting.

# ? Jan 20, 2021 02:30

Antifa Poltergeist: Jun 3, 2004; "We're not laughing with you, we're laughing at you"

sweet geek swag posted:

This ignores Weathertop. They have the hobbits there at their mercy, with only Aragorn to protect them. They know these hobbits have what they are seeking. They're in the wild, with no witnesses. There is no reason to let them go unless they are actually incapable of capturing or killing them. There is clearly some limit to their power here. Aragorn theorizes that it has to do with the fact that there were only five of them, and he's probably right. The Nine, all together, are far more terrifying and powerful.

A couple of points as well. They don't charge Glorfindel, they are about to leave the river before it overwhelms them, but then they see Glorfindel and they flee him. Into the river. Where they are destroyed (temporarily of course). During the battle at Minas Tirith they mostly spread terror and attack fleeing opponents. Even Theoden is mostly undone by the knights of his house fleeing him, and then he is crushed under his own horse.

There are two times when he shows uncertainty during the battle. The first, when he confronts Gandalf, who defies him. Importantly Gand7alf does not use any magic here, not really. His defiance is enough to send the Witch King packing. The second time is when Eowyn defies him and kills his mount. This isn't enough to send him packing, but if he was unnerved by her this would be the time to break out the big guns. But he doesn't. He just attacks her with his mace. It isn't her revelation that she is a woman that unnerved him. It was the fact that somehow she managed to defy him.

I think the way to look at the Nazgul is this: They're empty. That emptiness is formless, and only can take form when shaped by someone else. So when they are feared, that fear gives form and power to their emptiness. But if they are defied, they lose all that. So if the Witch King is in his tower, surrounded by his terrified minions who believe him to be a powerful sorcerer, he is a powerful sorcerer. If he is leading an army, he is a powerful general.

When Eowyn defies him, she's still scared of him. So he is still a fearsome warrior. But because she has defied him, that is all he is. There is a limit to her fear, so there is a limit to his power. Similarly, when spying in the Shire and Bree, the Nazgul are only ever able to be that nameless thing in the night. There is no expectation of what the Nazgul could be, so their power is limited.

And this actually explains a question I had earlier. I had wondered why Gildor hadn't given Frodo a clearer warning. And this could be the reason. If Frodo expected the ringwraiths to be something, they would have used his fear to become that. Which means that Gildor was absolutely correct to not give Frodo something to fixate on.

Ah, the Terry Pratchett hypothesis of belief.
They should have carried around some turtles.

# ? Jan 20, 2021 02:32

sweet geek swag: Mar 29, 2006; Adjust lasers to FUN!

Nessus posted:

I think this runs into some limits because Gandalf et al refer to the Nazgul as having lost their horses (presumably trained to handle having fuckin devil ghosts on them) and that this is a material loss; their later fell beast steeds are actual critters.

But they aren't major limits, and the idea that there is some "actual" reality - entities who could carry real knives and if needful carry the Ring back to Mordor in an actual hand - beneath the huge shell of terror and fear makes total sense to me.

The ringwraiths definitely have bodies in the sense that they were once men, and the bodies they had as men still exist. But they have faded into the shadow or spirit world, something which Tolkien was very unclear as to what the rules of it were. My idea is that those bodies have very severe limitations in how they can interact with the world. There are definitely things they can do, even without people nearby. They could open a door, swing a sword, or ride a horse. But I think that without fear they aren't necessarily any better at those things, and may in some ways be worse, than the average person. The ringwraiths may be empty husks, but they are still husks. This is also why you don't see them turn into a troll or a dragon. They were human, and whatever evil they represent must still have human form.

# ? Jan 20, 2021 02:32

reignonyourparade: Nov 15, 2012

euphronius posted:

We have no idea what she would say.

Do you think none of the elves who the stories are from ever bothered to ask her?

# ? Jan 20, 2021 02:36

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

reignonyourparade posted:

Do you think none of the elves who the stories are from ever bothered to ask her?

Maybe

But what if the wrote down the myth instead? Leaders get mythologized all the time. Look at Gilgamesh or what ( i cant remember what roman poet) did for the Ceaser family.

# ? Jan 20, 2021 02:41

sweet geek swag: Mar 29, 2006; Adjust lasers to FUN!

euphronius posted:

Maybe

But what if the wrote down the myth instead? Leaders get mythologized all the time. Look at Gilgamesh or what ( i cant remember what roman poet) did for the Ceaser family.

Virgil. Gilgamesh is an good example of a mythologized hero though.

I think it is a little telling that Aragorn's reaction to Bilbo making an mythologized song about Earendil in Elrond's house is to make fun of his cheek for doing so.

# ? Jan 20, 2021 02:47

Anshu: Jan 9, 2019

euphronius posted:

We have no idea what she would say.

You're dodging the question. I didn't ask what she would actually say, I asked if she'd be lying if she said she'd seen the first sunrise.

# ? Jan 20, 2021 03:03

Bongo Bill: Jan 17, 2012

sweet geek swag posted:

The ringwraiths definitely have bodies in the sense that they were once men, and the bodies they had as men still exist. But they have faded into the shadow or spirit world, something which Tolkien was very unclear as to what the rules of it were. My idea is that those bodies have very severe limitations in how they can interact with the world. There are definitely things they can do, even without people nearby. They could open a door, swing a sword, or ride a horse. But I think that without fear they aren't necessarily any better at those things, and may in some ways be worse, than the average person. The ringwraiths may be empty husks, but they are still husks. This is also why you don't see them turn into a troll or a dragon. They were human, and whatever evil they represent must still have human form.

They weren't just men - they were kings. Kings can be extremely good at various things in this setting.

# ? Jan 20, 2021 04:37

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

Bongo Bill posted:

They weren't just men - they were kings. Kings can be extremely good at various things in this setting.

I hear the Witch-King of Angmar once straight up told a chick he liked her.

# ? Jan 20, 2021 04:50

Hasselblad: Dec 13, 2017; My dumbass opinions are only outweighed by my racism.

No one forgot that I exist to defend violent cops, champion chaining down immigrants, and have trash opinions on cooking.

Antifa Poltergeist posted:

Ah, the Terry Pratchett hypothesis of belief.
They should have carried around some turtles.

I prefer Adams...

�The story so far:
In the beginning the Universe was created.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.�

# ? Jan 20, 2021 04:58

reignonyourparade: Nov 15, 2012

euphronius posted:

Maybe

But what if the wrote down the myth instead? Leaders get mythologized all the time. Look at Gilgamesh or what ( i cant remember what roman poet) did for the Ceaser family.

My answer to that what if is "that'd be dumb."

# ? Jan 20, 2021 05:03

Bongo Bill: Jan 17, 2012

If Bilbo asked Galadriel if she saw the first sunrise, she'd probably smile coyly and give some kind of evasive and enigmatic riddle for an answer.

# ? Jan 20, 2021 05:05

WoodrowSkillson: Feb 24, 2005; *Gestures at 60 years of Lions history*

reignonyourparade posted:

My answer to that what if is "that'd be dumb."

pretty much

# ? Jan 20, 2021 05:05

Tree Bucket: Apr 1, 2016; R.I.P.idura leucophrys

C�ST�LL�: Now see I was wondering, which king rules Angmar?
ĂBB�T: That's right.
C�ST�LL�: No, that's what I wanna know- which king rules Angmar!?
ĂBB�T: He does! That's what you just said!
[PAUSE]
C�ST�LL�: Er, who created the universe?

Tree Bucket fucked around with this message at 06:20 on Jan 20, 2021

# ? Jan 20, 2021 06:00

Blood Boils: Dec 27, 2006; Its not an S, on my planet it means QUIPS

Bongo Bill posted:

If Bilbo asked Galadriel if she saw the first sunrise, she'd probably smile coyly and give some kind of evasive and enigmatic riddle for an answer.

Yeah she certainly doesn't come across as someone with a literalist pov, very few elves do

Dwarves on the other hand, those dudes are fundies for sure

Blood Boils fucked around with this message at 08:57 on Jan 20, 2021

# ? Jan 20, 2021 08:27

sweet geek swag: Mar 29, 2006; Adjust lasers to FUN!

Bongo Bill posted:

They weren't just men - they were kings. Kings can be extremely good at various things in this setting.

Emphasis on were. Whatever they were before, they're just slaves to Sauron now.

# ? Jan 20, 2021 09:16

meatbag: Apr 2, 2007; Clapping Larry

Tree Bucket posted:

C�ST�LL�: Now see I was wondering, which king rules Angmar?
ĂBB�T: That's right.
C�ST�LL�: No, that's what I wanna know- which king rules Angmar!?
ĂBB�T: He does! That's what you just said!
[PAUSE]
C�ST�LL�: Er, who created the universe?

# ? Jan 20, 2021 10:17

ChubbyChecker: Mar 25, 2018

Nessus posted:

Yeah, some dude comes riding up out of nowhere all in black and hisses at you like he's gone through ten tons of pipeweed, that's probably pretty spooky. They certainly would have weird and foreign accents, too, the most terrifying thing of all to a stout little Englishman!

# ? Jan 20, 2021 12:02

Runcible Cat: May 28, 2007; Ignoring this post

sweet geek swag posted:

This ignores Weathertop. They have the hobbits there at their mercy, with only Aragorn to protect them. They know these hobbits have what they are seeking. They're in the wild, with no witnesses. There is no reason to let them go unless they are actually incapable of capturing or killing them. There is clearly some limit to their power here. Aragorn theorizes that it has to do with the fact that there were only five of them, and he's probably right. The Nine, all together, are far more terrifying and powerful.

It's interesting to contrast that whatever went down earlier on Weathertop with Gandalf. Whatever it was was dramatic enough to be visible for miles and scorch the whole summit.

If the "their power scales according to how scared people are of them" theory's correct Gandalf must be pretty loving terrified of them!

Ginette Reno posted:

I've always wondered what Saruman thinks the Fellowship's plan is. He seems to have some idea that they're carrying the ring as he sends the Uruk-Hai after them. But I don't think he has even the slightest inkling that they're planning on trying to destroy it.

His defiance of Gandalf after being defeated comes across as really tragic because Gandalf offers him a genuine clean slate and the West could desperately use Saruman's help but Saruman's disgust towards Gandalf makes sense when you think of it from his perspective. For all he knows Gandalf has the ring or is at least intending to deliver it to Aragorn or some other lord so that he can install them as lord of Middle Earth and rule through them. Gandalf's offer seems far less genuine if you're Saruman and you think Gandalf has the ring or is gifting it to Gondor.

Yeah, I think he just assumes the Fellowship's mission is "get Ring/Ringbearer to Gondor for battle with Sauron's armies", possibly with a side suspicion of "the hobbit's just carrying it to keep it inconspicuous and Gandalf or one of the Numenorean-type guys will take it over once it's there". Like Sauron, he can't comprehend that anyone would want it destroyed.

I wonder if he and Denethor ever had palantir conversations, or were all the comms routing through Sauron?

CommonShore posted:

I can't actually think of a single place in the books where Sauron unambiguously uses a magic power. Even the "Eye of Sauron" has a technical explanation within the internal logic of the setting.

The books tend to keep magic ambiguous anyway - a lot of it is willpower/divine right/providence operating, well, deniably. We don't even see Gandalf use that much unambiguous magic.

# ? Jan 20, 2021 12:23

Runcible Cat: May 28, 2007; Ignoring this post

ChubbyChecker posted:

"Found you! My turn to hide!"

# ? Jan 20, 2021 12:24

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

Gats Akimbo posted:

I wonder if he and Denethor ever had palantir conversations, or were all the comms routing through Sauron?

If I had to guess, Saruman probably found the palantir in Orthanc and didn't feel that it was a good idea to tell Denethor about it. (Indeed he was there before Denethor was steward.) What need had he to speak to the men of Gondor and reveal his plans?

# ? Jan 20, 2021 12:44

sassassin: Apr 3, 2010; by Azathoth

Gandalf the Grey is all flash and theatre. See his fireworks and reshaping water into horses. Put him on Weathertop (a location intended to watch over a massive area) and of course any scrap is going to be noticeable from miles around.

# ? Jan 20, 2021 12:57

DACK FAYDEN: Feb 25, 2013; Bear Witness

Nessus posted:

I hear the Witch-King of Angmar once straight up told a chick he liked her.

He once held an opponent's wife's hand
in a jar of acid
at a party

# ? Jan 20, 2021 13:12

ChubbyChecker: Mar 25, 2018

Bongo Bill posted:

If Bilbo asked Galadriel if she saw the first sunrise, she'd probably smile coyly and give some kind of evasive and enigmatic riddle for an answer.

she'd probably sing a 50 page song in moon runes about it

# ? Jan 20, 2021 14:52

sweet geek swag: Mar 29, 2006; Adjust lasers to FUN!

sassassin posted:

Gandalf the Grey is all flash and theatre. See his fireworks and reshaping water into horses. Put him on Weathertop (a location intended to watch over a massive area) and of course any scrap is going to be noticeable from miles around.

This is actually pretty accurate. Also, Gandalf the Grey is less knowledgeable than Gandalf the White, and might not be as up to the task of defying the Nazgul as Gandalf the White was.

# ? Jan 20, 2021 17:28

Arc Hammer: Mar 4, 2013; Got any deathsticks?

Anyone who gets a chance to come back to Middle Earth after death seemingly gets a free look at the Arda campaign walkthrough guide from Illuvatar so they know exactly what they're supposed to do. "Well, you died the first time, so here's what was supposed to happen, don't screw it up again."

Gandalf got it, Glorfindel came back to write a poem about a ghost boi and then prank him into tripping over a river ford, Brian and Lithium died and then came back to grab the silmaril back a second time from the dwarves with the help of some angry tree boughs.

# ? Jan 21, 2021 07:25

Vavrek: Mar 2, 2013; I like your style hombre, but this is no laughing matter. Assault on a police officer. Theft of police property. Illegal possession of a firearm. FIVE counts of attempted murder. That comes to... 29 dollars and 40 cents. Cash, cheque, or credit card?

Brian and Lithium

That's it that's their names now.

# ? Jan 21, 2021 08:28

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

Vavrek posted:

Brian and Lithium

That's it that's their names now.

And his face became spotty; yes, his face became spotty.

# ? Jan 21, 2021 10:56

VanSandman: Feb 16, 2011; SWAP.AVI EXCHANGER

Arcsquad12 posted:

Anyone who gets a chance to come back to Middle Earth after death seemingly gets a free look at the Arda campaign walkthrough guide from Illuvatar so they know exactly what they're supposed to do. "Well, you died the first time, so here's what was supposed to happen, don't screw it up again."

Gandalf got it, Glorfindel came back to write a poem about a ghost boi and then prank him into tripping over a river ford, Brian and Lithium died and then came back to grab the silmaril back a second time from the dwarves with the help of some angry tree boughs.

The disrespect here is astounding.

# ? Jan 21, 2021 11:35

webmeister: Jan 31, 2007; The answer is, mate, because I want to do you slowly. There has to be a bit of sport in this for all of us. In the psychological battle stakes, we are stripped down and ready to go. I want to see those ashen-faced performances; I want more of them. I want to be encouraged. I want to see you squirm.