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Btw: before some pedant bursts in demanding a new thread for this year because IT'S NOT 2019- Israel is famous for being chronically behind, sometime by as much as decades. Apartheid went away almost 30 years ago for God's sake.
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Jan 14, 2021 11:03
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The 2019 election is still going on, isn't it?
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Jan 14, 2021 11:37
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Only in the sense that we've been having the election to kick BIBI out since 2015
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Jan 14, 2021 13:38
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The one I remember was specifically evangelical marketed and the dude who talked had a mustache but I wouldn’t be shocked if it was the same or an affiliated group.
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Jan 14, 2021 17:25
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By popular demand posted:Btw: before some pedant bursts in demanding a new thread for this year because IT'S NOT 2019- Israel is famous for being chronically behind, sometime by as much as decades. Dude, the year is 5780 in Israel.
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Jan 14, 2021 22:18
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Madkal posted:Dude, the year is 5780 in Israel. Look, it's been two thousand years and nearly thirty with internet. They're not going to figure out that Jesus was a liar and the Romans were right to have killed him.
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Jan 21, 2021 20:20
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You're assuming that he definitely existed and was not an amalgamation of many other messiah claimants running around at the time or even as some suggest a complete fabrication.
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Jan 21, 2021 23:34
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Isn't the historical evidence definitely leaning towards Jesus having been a real person? (or at least, him being a Jewish apocalyptic preacher who said a rough approximation of what's attested in Matthew, Mark and Luke) and not an amalgam? I only read one Bart Ehrman book about the subject, but it seemed pretty convincing to me.
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Jan 21, 2021 23:40
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I feel like the way the bible talks about john the baptist established that he's probably both a guy and an amalgamation. Like it seems really clear there was a john the baptist cult and then a bunch of stories that are framed as "you might have heard john the baptist did this, oh no, it was me, common mistake" and a bunch of incompatible stories trying to tell about the time john the baptist passed the torch to this guy. Like none of it is the way anyone would write fiction but is absolutely the way you write when you walk into a town and everyone is following one guy and you want to go "no no, my guy did that, and also my guy knew your guy and your guy said my guy is in charge now"
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Jan 22, 2021 00:14
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Yeah the existence of Jesus is better documented than almost every major religious figure (modern figures like Haile Selassie or Joseph Smith being more attested for obvious reasons) and we can be basically certain he existed, was baptised by John the Baptist, and crucified by the Roman authorities. And aside from things like the three concurring gospels, we also have the letters of Paul (who didn't know Jesus personally, but knew his brother James), which stitches him into the temporal historical record very well.
PittTheElder fucked around with this message at 02:59 on Jan 22, 2021 |
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Jan 22, 2021 02:56
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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yeah afaik instead of an amalgamation of apocalyptic prophets prevalent in the 1st century BC, jesus was just the youtuber that went viral
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Jan 22, 2021 03:14
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Magic isn't real, so a guy who could fly and walk on water and talk to plants or maybe just fig trees is probably fake op
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Jan 22, 2021 13:43
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Yeah when I hear the "Jesus don't real" claim I automatically think of a sweaty, misogynistic, New Atheist type.
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Jan 22, 2021 14:26
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VitalSigns posted:Magic isn't real, so a guy who could fly and walk on water and talk to plants or maybe just fig trees is probably fake op Historians generally agree that the simplest explanation for the available evidence is that there was a real first-century Judean Jew who preached an apocalyptic message and was executed by the Roman Empire. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus
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Jan 22, 2021 14:37
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Civilized Fishbot posted:Historians generally agree that the simplest explanation for the available evidence is that there was a real first-century Judean Jew who preached an apocalyptic message and was executed by the Roman Empire. Historians generally agree that there were in fact lots of popular Jewish street preachers in that era. Many of them had apocalyptic messages, many of them called themselves Christ, and some of them were executed. Realistically there's no way to differentiate them all, particularly by writers living 100+ years later, and stories about any of them have been attributed to the unifying figure of Jesus Christ. The historicity of Jesus is like the historicity of King Arthur - there's a lot of possible contenders who meet the broad outlines of the character, but in the end the figure is much larger than the life of any individual person. Kaal fucked around with this message at 16:42 on Jan 22, 2021 |
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Jan 22, 2021 16:05
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Oh yeah, you guys sure cracked the case, religion has been vanquished, time to pat yourselves on the back and go celebrate, preferably somewhere far away.
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Jan 22, 2021 16:31
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jesus was definitely real and he was definitely a huge nerd
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Jan 22, 2021 16:32
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steinrokkan posted:Oh yeah, you guys sure cracked the case, religion has been vanquished, time to pat yourselves on the back and go celebrate, preferably somewhere far away. If the morals of christianity only matter to you because they're allegedly attached to a real figure then I think that's on you more than anyone. If one can accept that Jesus wasn't literally a wizard, I'm not sure why it's a bridge too far to accept that Jesus was several preachers. The Exodus is also hotly contested, last I checked.
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Jan 22, 2021 16:41
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Neurolimal posted:If the morals of christianity only matter to you because they're allegedly attached to a real figure then I think that's on you more than anyone. If one can accept that Jesus wasn't literally a wizard, I'm not sure why it's a bridge too far to accept that Jesus was several preachers. Well done, sir, yet another savage blow delivered against the rotten theist logic, by the means of reasoned argument. You'd have my upvote, alas it seems Reddit is malfunctioning today.
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Jan 22, 2021 17:00
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steinrokkan posted:Well done, sir, yet another savage blow delivered against the rotten theist logic, by the means of reasoned argument. You'd have my upvote, alas it seems Reddit is malfunctioning today.
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Jan 22, 2021 17:10
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Nebalebadingdong posted:jesus was definitely real and he was definitely a huge nerd he actually comes off as a bit of a radical badass.
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Jan 22, 2021 17:12
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emanresu tnuocca posted:he actually comes off as a bit of a radical badass. I heard he was a pretty okay carpenter.
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Jan 22, 2021 17:35
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Madkal posted:I heard he was a pretty okay carpenter. Jesus was just another link in the long chain of Jewish sons who sucked at their job and decided to get into politics instead, and hell I respect it.
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Jan 22, 2021 17:49
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steinrokkan posted:Oh yeah, you guys sure cracked the case, religion has been vanquished, time to pat yourselves on the back and go celebrate, preferably somewhere far away. I don't think religious people are wrong or ignorant or any of that new atheism poo poo, I just think a critical historiographical analysis of the evidence we have is fascinating! i.e. what can we reasonably conclude with the same tools we use for the rest of history? Miracles aren't something this engine was built to account for unfortunately, but that doesn't exclude their existence.
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Jan 22, 2021 18:12
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Jesus: "I am not a crock" Kaal posted:Historians generally agree that there were in fact lots of popular Jewish street preachers in that era. Many of them had apocalyptic messages, many of them called themselves Christ, and some of them were executed. Realistically there's no way to differentiate them all, particularly by writers living 100+ years later, and stories about any of them have been attributed to the unifying figure of Jesus Christ. Jesus being one preacher in a sea of Christs is certainly an interesting idea, mostly because I'd never heard of it before. Got any recommended reading on this? Now I'm gonna have to go pull my History of Christianity off the wall 
PittTheElder fucked around with this message at 19:09 on Jan 22, 2021 |
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Jan 22, 2021 19:01
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While many of the stories of Superman Comics #1 are clearly exaggerated, it is indisputable that there were thousands of reporters who did indeed investigate crimes in the metropolises in that time period of late antiquity, and that Clark and Kent were names in common use in the language of the region during that time, so the lack of direct evidence is not an indication of the nonexistence of the person Clark Kent on which the stories were based, after all we do have the testaments of his contemporary Jimmy Olsen not as his original holographs of course, but as reported by people who knew of him which is after all the same amount of evidence we have for other figures of Earth's late antiquity such as Pericles of Athens or Hillary Clinton of Little Rock. The historians suggesting the original Superman is a purely mythical figure like Heracles or Donald Trump Magnus have been mostly discredited and are probably fat and unappealing to the opposite sex or same sex if they swing that way.
VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 19:18 on Jan 22, 2021 |
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Jan 22, 2021 19:11
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The difference of course is that Superman was never held out by any historical text or tradition as being a real person. Easy to miss that part!
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Jan 22, 2021 19:18
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Tweezer Reprise posted:The difference of course is that Superman was never held out by any historical text or tradition as being a real person. Easy to miss that part! This contention is murky at best and is not supported by the original* texts, but is an interpretation of them based on shoddy scholarship and oily skin. No contemporary sources explicitly stating this have survived to the present day. Obviously there are a plethora of documents from more recent history holding the reality of a historical Superman, or we wouldn't be having this academic debate *obviously I mean the oldest reproductions of the original texts that have survived to the present day, as far as we know VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 19:25 on Jan 22, 2021 |
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Jan 22, 2021 19:20
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VitalSigns posted:This contention is murky at best and is not supported by the original texts, but is an interpretation of them based on shoddy scholarship and oily skin. No contemporary sources explicitly stating this have survived to the present day. There are scant to nonexistent contemporaneous sources for literally any historical figure of the first century, though. I would consider the Pauline epistles, assuming the historical consensus that they started being written in the 50s CE as about the closest we're ever going to get on that. I mean, the guy claimed to have known of Jesus and met his family and is addressing people who also might've known about him while he was alive. (For the record, I think that just because a text is in the Biblical canon doesn't mean it should be stripped of any historiographical value.) Tweezer Reprise fucked around with this message at 19:29 on Jan 22, 2021 |
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Jan 22, 2021 19:27
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OK I was just joking around, but if you're going to try to refute a joke, you should at least know that Paul never personally met Jesus except in magic visions. E: ah you caught and edited that, ok then
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Jan 22, 2021 19:31
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VitalSigns posted:OK I was just joking around, but if you're going to try to refute a joke, you should at least know that Paul never personally met Jesus except in magic visions. Sorry, my bad on both counts. I've just seen people make that direct analogy completely seriously in the past.
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Jan 22, 2021 19:33
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Nah I think historical criticism is kinda interesting and I thought it would be funny to imagine what future people might conclude about our era if they had the same limited tools. I don't really care about the existence of Jesus either way, the myths aren't based on whether there was a guy named Yeshua who said some stuff, because the myths are all childish impossible fables, but I think it's kind of amusing how seriously some people take it (not you). The people who say "a ha Jesus may have existed, so the stories are true and therefore it must also be true he was a magic man flying around multiplying fishes" (not you) never apply that logic to, say, Mohammed who indisputably existed and was also held to have done some magic in his day.
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Jan 22, 2021 19:40
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this feels like it would be a good topic for an actual thread
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Jan 22, 2021 21:19
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Has anyone watched the documentary about ramallah called "Mayor" yet
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Jan 22, 2021 21:26
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PittTheElder posted:Jesus: "I am not a crock" I wish I had an individual book at hand, but it's been a while since I was delving deeply into the topic. The thing to remember with all of this is that Judea at the time was in the midst of a religious burn-over, so there were preachers running around all over the place. They had a lot of ideas, some spiritual, some political, and a lot of it had to do with the Jewish population experiencing a culture clash as Roman society and philosophy began sweeping through the area when Pompey Magnus established the Province of Syria in 63 BCE. This religious fervor continued to build as the Romans under Caligula expanded further south and established the Province of Judea in 6 CE. Jewish street preachers swarmed the countryside spouting apocalyptic predictions, and the religious orthodox became increasingly angry as new beliefs swept through the population. A lot of them were shepherds, or carpenters, or teachers, as indeed beyond the metaphorical implications those were very common occupations for poor men of that time. Many of them referred to themselves as messiah, or Christ, as they hoped to lead their followers to a better future. In fact, many of them called themselves Jesus (meaning Savior) it being both a common Jewish name and one that is laden with religious meaning. Wikipedia has a few salient examples, but there were a lot more: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barabbas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_ben_Ananias https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Sira https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theudas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_of_Peraea https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athronges In response to the political unrest, in 28 CE the Romans began assuming an increased role in the governance of the province, and fully incorporated Judea under Roman law - in particular regarding capital offences. Religious activity took on an increasingly political element. The next 30 years saw a variety of political and religious activity, as the Romans at times increased and reduced autonomy, and the Jewish orthodox pushed back against both the moderates and the Roman authorities. Eventually events culminated in the Great Jewish Revolt in 66 CE, when the Jewish militias began attacking not only fellow Jews but Roman citizens - Vespasian retaliated, destroyed the Second Temple, and effectively began the second diaspora. Kaal fucked around with this message at 22:34 on Jan 22, 2021 |
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Jan 22, 2021 22:09
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There was the third Bar Kokba rebellion subsequent to that which really sealed it as Rome controlled Jerusalem after the Jews suffered a massive defeat to Hadrian and had Judea merged into Syria.
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Jan 23, 2021 08:04
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Ok but how does this relate to bibi somehow not being in prison despite his many, obvious crimes?
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Jan 24, 2021 18:55
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Drone_Fragger posted:Ok but how does this relate to bibi somehow not being in prison despite his many, obvious crimes? bidi is an amalgamation of several criminals, not a real person
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Jan 24, 2021 21:29
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*benny gantz flips over coffee cup*
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Jan 24, 2021 21:42
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i'm jesus
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Jan 25, 2021 00:59
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