(Thread IKs:
fart simpson)
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Antonymous posted:I know that post was dumb but this one is too considering like 70,000 people died just a decade ago in a single earthquake in china and then a logical followup is, have earthquakes continued to wrack the population with no or even a worse response from the government, whether central or local? i believe the answers to both of my questions are "no" because, in fact, the chinese government is much more beholden to the chinese people than the american government is to its own. even liberal propaganda acknowledges this, it just tries to pretend it's a bad thing with "bloodsucking autocrat xi attempts to trick people into liking him by alleviating their poverty" style headlines
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Jan 22, 2021 19:07
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https://twitter.com/DerekJGrossman/status/1351747516748886019
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Jan 22, 2021 19:59
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Ferrinus posted:and then a logical followup is, have earthquakes continued to wrack the population with no or even a worse response from the government, whether central or local? i believe the answers to both of my questions are "no" because, in fact, the chinese government is much more beholden to the chinese people than the american government is to its own. even liberal propaganda acknowledges this, it just tries to pretend it's a bad thing with "bloodsucking autocrat xi attempts to trick people into liking him by alleviating their poverty" style headlines well the estimates for the 2008 earthquake go as high as 90,000 people dead so it's not really making that argument well, and I think it's a stupid comparison to make. there hasn't been an earthquake that big in a populated area since then, either. The only one that was a 6 or higher after that killed 3,000.
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Jan 22, 2021 21:49
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Antonymous posted:well the estimates for the 2008 earthquake go as high as 90,000 people dead so it's not really making that argument well, and I think it's a stupid comparison to make. there hasn't been an earthquake that big in a populated area since then, either. The only one that was a 6 or higher after that killed 3,000. the obvious point of comparison is this: insofar as the casualties are the fault of shoddy construction and cost-cutting by local governments, have those places been rebuilt to a higher standard?
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Jan 22, 2021 21:52
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indigi posted:wtf those are expensive as heck I don't think that's really true, there's just a lot especially in BJ and they're iconic so you're kinda biased to thinking they're the biggest brand. https://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2017/03/top-10-best-selling-cars-in-china.html here's 2017's top selling cars and maybe half are Chinese with some Nissan and VW imports thrown in
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Jan 22, 2021 21:53
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The (gasoline) auto industry is really protectionist compare to other industries in the western countries. It's one of the few industries that unions and state industrial policies still make a difference.
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Jan 22, 2021 22:08
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how does one “win the great power competition” exactly
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Jan 22, 2021 22:12
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THS posted:how does one “win the great power competition” exactly With a big enough mine shaft gap everything is possible.
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Jan 22, 2021 22:14
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THS posted:how does one “win the great power competition” exactly tbh we could probably pull off a first strike on china if we wanted but not for long
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Jan 22, 2021 22:19
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THS posted:how does one “win the great power competition” exactly Crush them economically like the Soviets and teach their population a "lesson"...the US has its work cut out for it though. As for Chinese branded car making, they have been making progress the last couple of years, and supposedly quality has improved from the car reviews I have seen. Also, most of the cars on the road are actually built in China even if they are foreign brands. US car exports were 6 billion a year to China before the trade war, still significant but only about 15% of total car imports (Germany was 38%). Stairmaster posted:tbh we could probably pull off a first strike on china if we wanted but not for long The Russians wouldn't miss the opportunity to hit us with a second strike.
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Jan 22, 2021 22:24
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sincx has issued a correction as of 05:32 on Mar 23, 2021 |
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Jan 22, 2021 22:26
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the united states and china should be friends and work toward mutual prosperity and fair development for all nations
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Jan 22, 2021 22:28
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Stairmaster posted:tbh we could probably pull off a first strike on china if we wanted but not for long Nah, that was never possible. No way in hell could the Russians be sure that the US isn't shooting at them.
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Jan 22, 2021 22:28
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sincx posted:Nah that possibility was gone decadea. China launched its first SSBN in the 80s, and its first good SSBN in 2007. Depends how good their c&c is. A depressed elevation launch from US subs would give them like maybe ten minutes of warning time. Ardennes posted:
That's the wild card that nobody knows how it'd play out in that scenario. More likely russia would launch on warning than wait to see how things unfold.
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Jan 22, 2021 22:30
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Yeah any nuclear exchange would go global almost immediately
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Jan 22, 2021 22:31
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Flavius Aetass posted:is there a good overview online of how socialism is implemented in the daily lives of Chinese workers? China does not have socialism for the individual like the Soviet Union. There's no universal healthcare, tepid social security, no guaranteed housing or minimum standard of living. Labor rights are in the law but in practice don't exist especially in private businesses and foreign joint ventures, or in small businesses and the countryside. There is a union and it's 'one big union' for all industries which is the party's union, but it's bureaucratic and not going to rock the boat too much yet because capital accumulation is the stage China is in and they haven't even fully transitioned to growing their consumer class, which I guess is the end goal of the accumulation. China does have a planned economy with huge infrastructure spending and subsidies for certain industries that it wants to promote, subsidies even individuals can get to start their own fishing business or w/e and that background provides some stability. From an individual perspective there's probably not much different for the street vendor of either country, afaik, but Chinese society is run differently in the world around that vendor, especially if the vendor doesn't have the hukou of that city, which is common. You are born with residence in a certain part of China, which basically breaks down to rural or urban but also is like which school district your kids will go to etc. Rural hukou havers have basically no welfare as far as I understand it, and aren't able to buy property in the city. That doesn't stop hundreds of millions of rural migrants from moving to the cities anyway. Until the 1980s, China was more like the soviet model and provided pensions healthcare etc for all urban residents, but now in its more free-market system has social security contributions and private health insurance etc. If you move to the city from the countryside or move from one city to another you're not in your hukou so you can't get benefits where you live. If you are urban and live in the city of your hukou, you can get unemployment pension etc. You can also apply to change your hukou but it takes a while and there are limits each year on how many can change from rural to urban and how many can each city issue. I think Shanghai is capped at 25 million residents and right now like 75% of its residents don't have hukou there. Each hukou has its own pension value, welfare etc, so if you can get shanghai beijing or shenzhen you will get paid more when you retire or file for unemployment. Happy to be corrected if I've gotten any of this wrong. Antonymous has issued a correction as of 22:38 on Jan 22, 2021 |
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Jan 22, 2021 22:34
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this entire conversation, of course, is insane - no one knows exactly what would happen except everyone would die
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Jan 22, 2021 22:35
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Personally I'd like to see Russia and the US make a new more strict version of START. I'd include China in there but they would never in a million years join a new arms reduction treaty
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Jan 22, 2021 22:43
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Ardennes posted:Crush them economically like the Soviets and teach their population a "lesson"...the US has its work cut out for it though. even assuming 100% of the American population supported whatever measures were deemed necessary for a great power competition, could that even happen at this point? Antonymous posted:China does not have socialism for the individual like the Soviet Union. There's no universal healthcare, tepid social security, no guaranteed housing or minimum standard of living. Labor rights are in the law but in practice don't exist especially in private businesses and foreign joint ventures, or in small businesses and the countryside. wow sounds like poo poo OP
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Jan 22, 2021 22:51
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i'm told by people with friends or relatives there that china does have de facto universal health care, although it's like a patchwork of overlapping and heavily-subsidized insurance policies or something like that
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Jan 22, 2021 22:54
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There was a 10 year plan to make it universal by last year but it hasn't been completed yet, but yeah it's subsidized by at least half and you can get insurance from your employer. A lot of that stuff is in the process of reform. Also I'm not in China and haven't been for several years
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Jan 22, 2021 22:55
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despite not having universal healthcare I can’t imagine their insurance is the same kind of parasitic hell industry we have here
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Jan 22, 2021 22:59
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Antonymous posted:From an individual perspective there's probably not much different for the street vendor of either country, afaik, but Chinese society is run differently in the world around that vendor, especially if the vendor doesn't have the hukou of that city, which is common. You are born with residence in a certain part of China, which basically breaks down to rural or urban but also is like which school district your kids will go to etc. Rural hukou havers have basically no welfare as far as I understand it, and aren't able to buy property in the city. That doesn't stop hundreds of millions of rural migrants from moving to the cities anyway. Until the 1980s, China was more like the soviet model and provided pensions healthcare etc for all urban residents, but now in its more free-market system has social security contributions and private health insurance etc. If you move to the city from the countryside or move from one city to another you're not in your hukou so you can't get benefits where you live. If you are urban and live in the city of your hukou, you can get unemployment pension etc. You can also apply to change your hukou but it takes a while and there are limits each year on how many can change from rural to urban and how many can each city issue. I think Shanghai is capped at 25 million residents and right now like 75% of its residents don't have hukou there. Each hukou has its own pension value, welfare etc, so if you can get shanghai beijing or shenzhen you will get paid more when you retire or file for unemployment. The Hukou system has been reformed since the 2000s and has been generally opened up except for some first-tier cities. That said, it is clear there has been rural residents moved out of Beijing as well. quote:The third reform period began in 2014, in which the state published and implemented the “National New-type Urbanization Plan (2014-2020)” in March to tackle various problems derived from China's fast urbanization process.[16] For instance, the plan aims to shorten the 17.3% gap between urban residents who live in cities but do not carry urban hukou and urban residents with urban hukou in 2012 by 2% by 2020.[16] Meanwhile, the plan also intends to offer welfare entitlements to people who have rural hukou (from rural migrants to urban residents who carry rural hukou), including education, welfare housing, and health care to at least 90% (about 100 million) of migrants by 2020.[16][44][45] In fact, with this plan, the state has been putting effort into achieving their goals. For instance, the state has granted many left-behind children the right to attend urban schools so that they can reunite with their rural migrant parents; it has also offered many rural migrants job training.[42] Moreover, in July of the same year, the government also published “Opinions on Further Promoting the Reform of the Hukou System" to abolish the hukou restrictions in towns and small cities, to gradually remove the restrictions middle-sized cities, to relax the restrictions in big cities---but to maintain the restrictions in the very large cities.[45] As a result, according to an announcement of the Ministry of Public Security, by 2016, the state has already issued urban hukou to about 28.9 million rural migrants.[44] Furthermore, in 2016, the local government of Beijing announced that they would abolish the official distinction between urban hukou and non-urban hukou within Beijing, meaning that all residents living in Beijing would be identified as Beijing residents regardless of their original hukou status.[46] Having said that, in November 2017, the government of Beijing implemented a “clean-up” campaign that intended to send millions of rural migrants back to their original rural areas.[47] Although this campaign was claimed by the local government as a way of getting rid of the unsafe structures in Beijing, where many rural migrants (at least 8.2 million in total) living in, some considered it as a way of “cleaning up,” as it happened shortly after the fire of an unsafe building in Beijing.[47] Also, the Chinese health care system has been reforming in recent years as well. China doesn't have a full integrated UHS system, but it has universal subsidized insurance. The biggest issue compared to other similar systems was out of pockets costs were quite high, especially for more expensive medication and supposedly the Chinese government has been expanding the number of drugs covered through bulk purchasing. Supposedly, the portion of out of pocket costs are similar to Argentina. In 2017, total out of pocket costs per person in the US was $1125, $512 in Mexico, and $247 in China. indigi posted:wow sounds like poo poo OP If you have a Hukou then you actually do gain access to subsidized housing and health insurance btw. Ardennes has issued a correction as of 23:18 on Jan 22, 2021 |
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Jan 22, 2021 23:03
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indigi posted:even assuming 100% of the American population supported whatever measures were deemed necessary for a great power competition, could that even happen at this point? not without a naval blockade, which would result in a hot war pretty quickly
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Jan 22, 2021 23:10
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Getting an MRI in China costs you like $300, regardless of your situation. About the same as what one costs to poor people on a California-run plan. But I dunno if collections is gonna hound you over medical debt in China
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Jan 22, 2021 23:34
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Ardennes posted:The Hukou system has been reformed since the 2000s and has been generally opened up except for some first-tier cities. That said, it is clear there has been rural residents moved out of Beijing as well. It's basically a modern system of welfare and entitlements but really nothing like the soviet union. There's as many homeless in China, per capita, as the USA, or even a little more, and the government policy is to help find relatives who can take you in. There's not a lot of shelters edit: I heard that covid destroyed the street vending economy last year and so the government decided not to enforce street vending laws as strictly to help keep people from losing all their income Antonymous has issued a correction as of 23:40 on Jan 22, 2021 |
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Jan 22, 2021 23:37
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Happy Thread posted:Getting an MRI in China costs you like $300, regardless of your situation. About the same as what one costs to poor people on a California-run plan. But I dunno if collections is gonna hound you over medical debt in China even with insurance? woof Antonymous posted:It's basically a modern system of welfare and entitlements but really nothing like the soviet union. There's as many homeless in China, per capita, as the USA, or even a little more, and the government policy is to help find relatives who can take you in. There's not a lot of shelters sounds great
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Jan 22, 2021 23:45
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The US only "beat" the Soviet Union because that crayon-eater, bald bitch Gorbachev elevated a bunch of naive CINOs that believed a bunch of insane poo poo, like: - The CPSU should become a parliamentary party (???) and give up its monopoly on power - Religious institutions should come back and are good - Civil society is good and will be a positive thing, and is definitely not the organized civic wing of liberal intelligentsia - We should promote nationalism in the Soviet Union - The US believes in peaceful coexistence too and doesn't want to destroy us He was right about Reagan being an intellectually feeble troglodyte, but Stalin would have shot his rear end and he'd have had good reason.
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Jan 22, 2021 23:49
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gorbachev was a lib
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Jan 22, 2021 23:58
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Antonymous posted:gorbachev is a lib Still alive I wonder how he sleeps at night, at least yeltsin had the decency to drink himself to death
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Jan 23, 2021 00:11
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KaptainKrunk posted:The US only "beat" the Soviet Union because that crayon-eater, bald bitch Gorbachev elevated a bunch of naive CINOs that believed a bunch of insane poo poo, like: i'm always torn between blaming the fall of the ussr barely/not at all on gorbachev because explaining history through the actions of important individuals is liberalism, and massively/entirely on gorbachev because he just sucks so bad
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Jan 23, 2021 00:26
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I imagine the only way the US isn't economically superceded by China in the next decade is if they abandon neoliberalism and pursue some kind of national economy, idk probably not state capitalism, because that's considered socialism, but at the very least stepping back from globalisation and all that e: to be clear, this won't happen, especially because the GOP is going back to deficit hawk stuff to cover up their white supremacy problem lmao Venomous has issued a correction as of 00:32 on Jan 23, 2021 |
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Jan 23, 2021 00:28
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From what little I know of him Gorbachev really seemed childishly naive. How does someone like that end up in charge of an empire like the Soviet Union?
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Jan 23, 2021 00:31
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sincx has issued a correction as of 05:32 on Mar 23, 2021 |
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Jan 23, 2021 00:34
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genericnick posted:From what little I know of him Gorbachev really seemed childishly naive. How does someone like that end up in charge of an empire like the Soviet Union? theres a god but they hate us
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Jan 23, 2021 00:39
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Antonymous posted:
This actually ended up being a weird situation where there were conflicting statements from different officials, and it alternated from 'less enforced' to 'more enforced' over the course of a week. Locally, we had about 2 days where everyone became a street vendor (regardless of whether they actually had anything to sell or not. I don't think it was all that successful because of that), and the police actually enforced a time and street and all that, and then suddenly not and the same police were kicking everybody out. It was one of the earlier 'people wondering if there's an inner party struggle between xi and li keqiang' situations because of their conflicting statements, as inconsequential as it might seem.
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Jan 23, 2021 00:40
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Dreddout posted:Still alive he has no conscience so he is doing just fine
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Jan 23, 2021 01:16
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https://twitter.com/whoiszhu/status/1352729662917668870?s=20
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Jan 23, 2021 01:42
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Jan 23, 2021 01:47
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indigi posted:even with insurance? woof the normal insurance here is like a subsidized health savings account and generally you have to pay up front or they won’t treat you. there was a movie i saw maybe 2-3 years ago about a 20 something woman who was diagnosed with ovarian cancer and her doctor recommended saving up money now because treatment is expensive and the longer she waits the more likely she is to die when you go to the non emergency room hospital here, you check in and pay up front to see a doctor, who then gives you paperwork to get tests or whatever. you then take that paperwork back to the cashier desk and pay in advance and get a ticket for the test or second doctor or whatever, then you line up there. you take the results of that test back to the first doctor, and if they have any more tests to order you go pay for those before standing in line etc. at the end if you’re prescribed medications you can pay for them at the hospital pharmacy and then you wait until they call your number and they’ll have bagged up every medicine you were prescribed and you grab them and go. the social insurance thing fits in to all this by being a debit card that you use to pay for stuff at all of the above steps. the private insurance i have through my job works by reimbursing me for the above costs but i still have to pay first fart simpson has issued a correction as of 03:52 on Jan 23, 2021 |
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Jan 23, 2021 03:47
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