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OwlFancier posted:It would be funnier if I wasn't living in it, much like brexit is very funny if you're not living in it. Here is the real answer to the two sides of the independence arguement itt. It's crab bucketing but it's very justified crab bucketing because the crabs about to escape really want the crabs at the bottom of the bucket to know it but also be happy for them getting to escape or that makes them bad crabs. I'd say 'human nature' but really its the self-preservation instinct in all living things. No one is going to be truly happy to see people 'escape' due to the providence of where they were born while they get to waste away in the dreadlands. The difference in response comes down to emotional maturity and expression. Some will sigh inwardly, some will rage. No one is happy.
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Jan 23, 2021 20:47
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Jaeluni Asjil posted:The neighbour's daughter who is similar age to me also said if it hadn't been for the internet, this lockdown would have been considerably more difficult. Makes you wonder how bad compliance would have been 20-30 years when people wouldn't have had such easy diversions available.
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Jan 23, 2021 20:49
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For reference that exact statement applies equally to the prospect of northern independence. Because you are not escaping the bucket, you are watching people climb into a different coloured bucket and saying it is much better. And also the new bucket has never done a bad thing and is not responsible for the actions of the previous bucket.
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Jan 23, 2021 20:51
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OwlFancier posted:For reference that exact statement applies equally to the prospect of northern independence. Because you are not escaping the bucket, you are watching people climb into a different coloured bucket and saying it is much better. but the bucket is slightly lower and slightly easier to climb out of so in a way it's an improvement, incrementally so
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Jan 23, 2021 20:52
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OwlFancier posted:And also the new bucket has never done a bad thing and is not responsible for the actions of the previous bucket. but enough about Rangers FC
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Jan 23, 2021 20:54
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JollyBoyJohn posted:The last time I went to Glasgow I found a bottle of buckfast in a McDonalds toilet stall with the hinges kicked off it and 2 stogies snuffed out in the latrine Just this once, the truth is somewhere in the middle
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Jan 23, 2021 20:57
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Oh and you get dragged along whether or not you agree with the people suggesting it except they want you to think they're doing you a favour, which is very different from when the people currently in charge do that.
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Jan 23, 2021 20:58
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mrpwase posted:Just this once, the truth is somewhere in the middle I'm bored so I checked: Flookburgh is in the middle
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Jan 23, 2021 21:05
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One of the existing, actual countries should change it's name to Scotland so when "scotland" gets independence it can't be Scotland, has to be something else or pay Scotland to get the name back.
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Jan 23, 2021 21:10
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NotJustANumber99 posted:One of the existing, actual countries should change it's name to Scotland so when "scotland" gets independence it can't be Scotland, has to be something else or pay Scotland to get the name back. I'd take Alba Or Caledonia, thats a good strong name
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Jan 23, 2021 21:11
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Republic of North Scotland.
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Jan 23, 2021 21:15
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https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jan/23/brexit-hit-firms-advised-government-officials-set-up-shop-in-euquote:British businesses that export to the continent are being encouraged by government trade advisers to set up separate companies inside the EU in order to get around extra charges, paperwork and taxes resulting from Brexit, the Observer can reveal.    Convex fucked around with this message at 21:53 on Jan 23, 2021 |
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Jan 23, 2021 21:42
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still though, all this wonderful sov-rinty
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Jan 23, 2021 22:03
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The other day in tesco when there was gently caress all fruit or cheese on the shelves i felt so sovereign i nearly soiled my unders
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Jan 23, 2021 22:05
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I don't really have any skin in the game wrt scottish independence but tbh I'm for the UK (and England) being broken up, not for nationalism reasons or anything, but because I feel lots of smaller countries would generally be less harmful than one large one. Though I can't really say I've put much thought into it.
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Jan 23, 2021 22:09
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Would Scotland leaving the union harm the chances of any kind of left-wing government in the UK as a whole? It's 59 parliamentary seats that could be expected to vote more left wing than the rest of the country, although I understand that this has only really been true since the 80s(?) and also Scottish independence could shake up the English political sphere. It's crab bucket logic but I guess if you were living in England/Wales and wanted the tories out you'd be anti-independence on pragmatic grounds, while if you had similar opinions but lived in Scotland Independence might seem a faster and more permanent route to the same goal.
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Jan 23, 2021 22:25
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Disproportionation posted:I don't really have any skin in the game wrt scottish independence but tbh I'm for the UK (and England) being broken up, not for nationalism reasons or anything, but because I feel lots of smaller countries would generally be less harmful than one large one. Though I can't really say I've put much thought into it. I think ultimately the best outcome is a loose federation of regions of around 2 or 3 million people (a number picked entirely out of my arse, but that feels about right in terms of being small enough that there is probably common cause between the population but large enough not to be as unmanageable (and unbalanced) as the US states. Taxes etc are set and collected centrally then distributed by population, but it's up to the regions how they choose to spend that money - the central authority is effectively powerless other than in setting standards for and mediating disputes between the regions/states/cantons/whatever you want to call them and running large-scale infrastructure projects. This is what the EU should have been (their inability to do meaningful transfer of wealth south and east is what's ultimately going to end up tearing them apart) and what the non-poo poo pre-war city corporations and councils were sort-of like, thank you Poplar Council. Of course there are *loads* of problems with this, not least there's literally no way the 3 new London regions would agree to their money going to other regions, and their would be a massive amount of disruption in the early years (also big inefficiency in running 20 different versions of the NHS and other national bodies, although that could definitely be worked around), but it gets around the fundamental problem of devolution which is that England is always going to be the elephant in the room. One question for the Scots Nats though - what makes them think that an independent Scotland wouldn't almost immediately have the same internal imbalances as the UK, except this time it's Glasgow and Edinburgh versus the rest? Would Dundee and Aberdeen be entitled to become independent nations to escape the tyranny of Holyrood?
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Jan 23, 2021 22:33
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It's all ok, folks. I googled and found 'the brexit bonanza' we've all been waiting for: Brexit bonanza for management consultants: hurrah Brexit bonanza for Spanish cottage industries in agencies to help British expats navigate the new paperwork: .... erm.... Brexit bonanza on duty free fags and booze: .... ok if you smoke or drink AND go abroad (EU) to get your stashes. Brexit bonanza for UK fishing (article from 2018):.. that went well.... Brexit bonanza for organised crime: Don Jaeluni is very heppy - look out for the horses' heads in your beds if you upset me.
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Jan 23, 2021 22:33
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Shyrka posted:Republic of North Scotland. Fyros imo and I don't care the y doesn't fit
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Jan 23, 2021 22:44
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FUKROS
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Jan 23, 2021 22:45
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Vagabong posted:Would Scotland leaving the union harm the chances of any kind of left-wing government in the UK as a whole? It's 59 parliamentary seats that could be expected to vote more left wing than the rest of the country, although I understand that this has only really been true since the 80s(?) and also Scottish independence could shake up the English political sphere. It's crab bucket logic but I guess if you were living in England/Wales and wanted the tories out you'd be anti-independence on pragmatic grounds, while if you had similar opinions but lived in Scotland Independence might seem a faster and more permanent route to the same goal. It would massively harm the chances of an even vaguely left-wing government in the rUk. The most likely outcome of Scottish independence would be a neoliberal tax haven north of the border and a colossal Tory majority to the south of it. It’s basically international gerrymandering, which is probably why Rupert Murdoch is such a big fan of it.
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Jan 23, 2021 22:49
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goddamnedtwisto posted:One question for the Scots Nats though - what makes them think that an independent Scotland wouldn't almost immediately have the same internal imbalances as the UK, except this time it's Glasgow and Edinburgh versus the rest? Would Dundee and Aberdeen be entitled to become independent nations to escape the tyranny of Holyrood? If they wanted to, why the gently caress not? I don't really care if it's a slippery slope or argument ad absurdiam or whatever, self determination's a fairly fundamental right and if people can organise and agitate sufficiently for that outcome that a majority wants it, more power to them. I've never thought independent Scotland would be a wondrous utopia, I'm sure it would have all sorts of problems, I just think it'd be better than what we have now.
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Jan 23, 2021 22:55
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Shyrka posted:If they wanted to, why the gently caress not? I suspect one of the biggest issues with cities becoming completely independent is all the admin around setting up trade deals and embassies with all the other nations. And you'd have next to zero bargaining power on the world stage because you're just so trivially small. It just wouldn't work in the modern globalised world, you'd just be loving yourself in the arse.
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Jan 23, 2021 23:01
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JeremoudCorbynejad posted:I suspect one of the biggest issues with cities becoming completely independent is all the admin around setting up trade deals and embassies with all the other nations. And you'd have next to zero bargaining power on the world stage because you're just so trivially small. It just wouldn't work in the modern globalised world, you'd just be loving yourself in the arse. Sure, which means they probably wouldn't want to do it. Like the argument often goes to 'Oh well why doesn't Edna down the street declare independence!' to reduce it to absurdity, but... it's not gonna actually happen. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCzitO446ZY
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Jan 23, 2021 23:04
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goddamnedtwisto posted:Someone in this very thread compared Scotland to Palestine, if that's not loving Grade A Farage-strain brainworms going on I don't know what is. I cannot for one second believe anyone thought that was anything other than a big shitpost designed to rile things up.
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Jan 23, 2021 23:35
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Comrade Fakename posted:It would have been nice if the incredible political engagement during the Indyref had led to any real examination of the massive and mendacious lies the SNP told during that campaign, and had punished the. In any way afterwards instead of handing them huge electoral success. I mean, I think it's far more likely that the Brexit campaign was influenced more by the Better Together campaign if anything. Both sides were plenty comfortable bending the truth to fit a narrative, let's not kid on here. Comrade Fakename posted:It would massively harm the chances of an even vaguely left-wing government in the rUk.
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Jan 23, 2021 23:56
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Vagabong posted:Would Scotland leaving the union harm the chances of any kind of left-wing government in the UK as a whole? It's 59 parliamentary seats that could be expected to vote more left wing than the rest of the country, although I understand that this has only really been true since the 80s(?) and also Scottish independence could shake up the English political sphere. It's crab bucket logic but I guess if you were living in England/Wales and wanted the tories out you'd be anti-independence on pragmatic grounds, while if you had similar opinions but lived in Scotland Independence might seem a faster and more permanent route to the same goal. If England wants a left wing government all it needs to do is vote for it. A) Scotland has less influence in the HoC in our lifetimes, with the number of Scottish seats going from 72 out of 659 in 1997 to 59 out of 650 in 2010 & beyond. In 2019, if everyone seat in Scotland voted Labour we'd still have had a Tory government. In 2017 if everyone in Scotland voted Labour we could've had a Labour government. In 2015, we'd have still had a Tory government. In 2010 the Tories would've still been the largest party & the Liberals would still have preferred working with them than the Tories. In 2005 Labour could've lost half of its seat (it had 41) & still there'd have been a Labour government. If they lost all their seats it'd have been a minority government, so this one mattered. 2001, everyone in Scotland could've voted SNP or Liberal & there'd still have been a Labour government, ditto 97. In 92 if everyone voted Labour then the Tories would still have been the largest party, in '87 that's obviously also the case. So 2 elections in my life time where, if every seat in the country went one way, Scotland would've influenced who was the government. The fate of the UK is in England's hands, as it has been since 1707 because it's a bigger country with more representation.
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Jan 24, 2021 00:12
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Bobby Deluxe posted:I mean it's the UK thread and there's a third of it people get funny about discussing. Which is especially weird given how much Scotland suddenly becomes an issue every election. Does it? Seems no more of an issue than any other area, and the results are far more predictable. Scotland is not 1/3rd of the UK, more like 1/10th. ThomasPaine posted:I don't bother wearing a mask outside tbh, unless you're milling around in huge crowds and keeping your distance as much as possible you'd have to be very unlucky to pick it up. Enforcing mask wearing outside feels more than a little performative. When the staff in supermarkets isn’t wearing masks, it’s a joke to expect people walking down the street to do so. Same for all the builders and trades - never once seen one in a mask. Shyrka posted:I don't really care if it's a slippery slope or argument ad absurdiam or whatever, self determination's a fairly fundamental right and if people can organise and agitate sufficiently for that outcome that a majority wants it, more power to them. Maybe go watch “Passport to Pimlico”?
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Jan 24, 2021 00:16
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forkboy84 posted:If England wants a left wing government all it needs to do is vote for it. A) Scotland has less influence in the HoC in our lifetimes, with the number of Scottish seats going from 72 out of 659 in 1997 to 59 out of 650 in 2010 & beyond. The pre-assumption of this logic is that the Scottish area is different from any other group of non-Tory voting seats, like Greater Manchester and Liverpool which frequently votes uniformly one way and doesn't get that party into government. That's not to say it's not valid but it has to be valid for some other reason. Just drawing a ring around a geographical region which votes differently from the bulk of the country isn't enough to legitimise them saying that that's meaningful enough for seperatism. Edit: I'm just going to quote Lenin here actually. Calls for self determination are all well within socialist demands but there is a second question to address with it as well: "In this situation, the proletariat, of Russia is faced with a twofold or, rather, a two-sided task: to combat nationalism of every kind, above all, Great-Russian nationalism; to recognise, not only fully equal rights, for all nations in general, but also equality of rights as regards polity, i.e., the right of nations to self-determination, to secession. And at the same time, it is their task, in the interests of a successful struggle against all and every kind, of nationalism among all nations, to preserve the unity of the proletarian struggle and the proletarian organisations, amalgamating these organisations into a close-knit international association, despite bourgeois strivings for national exclusiveness. " Self-determination is something that can strengthen or weaken the working class and to have it be legitimate for socialists the argument must be made that it strengthens the struggle rather than just pretends to reflect some 'true' national boundary when class knows no nationality. namesake fucked around with this message at 00:29 on Jan 24, 2021 |
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Jan 24, 2021 00:18
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forkboy84 posted:The fate of the UK is in England's hands, as it has been since 1707 because it's a bigger country with more representation. Surely leaving the EU had revealed this for the nonsense it kind of is though? Like who cares what the difference is between england and not england other than the rules that dictate how the people within its arbitrary borders are able to interact with people without those borders? I guess this is liberal thinking. Not taking the piss.
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Jan 24, 2021 00:18
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Seen in The Guardianquote:Take Andrew Moss, who is managing director of a small company called Horizon, based in Ely, Cambridgeshire. He employs 37 people and sells packaging and point-of-sale marketing displays in this country, and also exports to the EU. His annual turnover is around £3.5m. He describes his company as part of the “engine room” of the British economy – one of the almost 6 million UK small businesses (defined as those employing less than 50 people) – that account for most of the UK’s GDP. Cry louder, rear end in a top hat.
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Jan 24, 2021 00:22
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Vagabong posted:Would Scotland leaving the union harm the chances of any kind of left-wing government in the UK as a whole? It's 59 parliamentary seats that could be expected to vote more left wing than the rest of the country, although I understand that this has only really been true since the 80s(?) and also Scottish independence could shake up the English political sphere. It's crab bucket logic but I guess if you were living in England/Wales and wanted the tories out you'd be anti-independence on pragmatic grounds, while if you had similar opinions but lived in Scotland Independence might seem a faster and more permanent route to the same goal. I think it would slightly hurt the chances not because of the 59 MPs or whatever but because an independent Scotland would swerve sharply to the right, as for nationalists there's no more benefit in flanking Labour from the left and from the reality of being a small supplicatory country trying to meet the conditions to join the EU. The only way it would help would be if Scotland became a thriving lefty example for the rest of us but that seems significantly less likely than a Scotland that gently races to the bottom and either way we now have another culture war front to distract us lovely. That said the 2017 swing away from the SNP to lefty Labour was reversed in 2019, independence fundamentally isn't a left-wing project so it's pretty irrelevant honestly. A left-wing government of the UK emerging won't be helped or hurt by SNP voters existing as a secessionist rump.
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Jan 24, 2021 00:25
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Arsenic Lupin posted:Seen in The Guardian Er... weird Actually not even weird. Either idiotic or nasty or maybe both. Great! well done. NotJustANumber99 fucked around with this message at 00:32 on Jan 24, 2021 |
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Jan 24, 2021 00:27
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Arsenic Lupin posted:Seen in The Guardian 
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Jan 24, 2021 00:35
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NotJustANumber99 posted:Surely leaving the EU had revealed this for the nonsense it kind of is though? Like who cares what the difference is between england and not england other than the rules that dictate how the people within its arbitrary borders are able to interact with people without those borders? I guess this is liberal thinking. Not taking the piss. Well, it's a matter of convenience. Scottish independence has a significantly higher chance of me not having to deal with another loving Old Etonian oval office PM than any other option on the table. Sure, it could just be a PM who went to Fettes or Hutchesons or Gordonstoun or where ever Gove went in Aberdeen (Robert Gordon College?) instead but I'll worry about that bridge when we come to it. Right now the possibility of the UK electing a left wing government is gently caress all. At least with independence there's the potential for a bit of hope before it all gets whisked away. The UK is a death cult and the only thing that could change that is a revolution which isn't on the cards or real press regulation which is barely more likely. Yes yes, odds are it just becomes a colder Ireland politically but right now the prospect at least gives me hope and you know what? loving need hope right now.
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Jan 24, 2021 00:37
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Arsenic Lupin posted:Seen in The Guardian Weird, did he not read the deal? 
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Jan 24, 2021 00:38
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forkboy84 posted:I mean, I think it's far more likely that the Brexit campaign was influenced more by the Better Together campaign if anything. Both sides were plenty comfortable bending the truth to fit a narrative, let's not kid on here. I’m not defending the Better Together campaign, it was terrible. But the BT campaign also didn’t inspire a huge political movement that then took the rest of Scottish politics by storm. And the SNP were campaigning for a very similar thing to the Brexit campaign: leaving a political union. The reasons the Brexit campaign would be influenced by the Yes campaign are obvious. quote:As opposed to now where the chances of a vaguely left-wing British government are somewhere between Diddly & Squat? Away & shite with that emotional blackmail. It’s not emotional blackmail, it’s just a basic statement of fact. That is the most likely outcome from Scottish independence. We all wish Labour had done just a little bit better in the 2017 election and then we’d have had a Corbyn-led government. But they were nowhere near getting a full majority. That government would only have been possible with some kind of SNP support (and incidentally, the Tory gains in Scotland were just enough for them to form a majority). The same would have been true in 2019, even with our wildest dreams of Labour success coming true. And the same is still likely in any near-ish election coming up. Even if Labour does great, even if the left somehow took control of the party again and became whatever you wish the Labour Party could be, the chances of forming a majority without Scotland in 2024 are extremely low. Without Scotland, I’d say that we’d likely have Tory rule in the rUK for another couple of decades, probably until the boomers really start dying off en masse. Although, there is the possibility that losing Scotland would be such an embarrassment that the government collapses, I think that’s pretty unlikely. In Scotland, a very neoliberal tax haven is the most likely outcome, it was the stated SNP plan in 2014, and the party has moved somewhat to the right since then, and the country has roundly rejected socialism twice. This is just a dispassionate prediction on my part. If you think that Scottish independence would still be worth it, it’s not like there are zero reasons to still support it even considering that. Comrade Fakename fucked around with this message at 02:01 on Jan 24, 2021 |
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Jan 24, 2021 00:38
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Am I missing something?
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Jan 24, 2021 00:38
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Arsenic Lupin posted:Seen in The Guardian "I didn't realise the leopards would cost me money" says man who voted for the Leopards Costing You Money project
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Jan 24, 2021 00:39
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Julio Cruz posted:"I didn't realise the leopards would cost me money" says man who voted for the Leopards Costing You Money project This isn't what the article says happened!?!?! We're just cheering people getting hosed?
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Jan 24, 2021 00:42
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