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It'll come around again, this was never a one election fight. It's a generational battle and the stakes are only the planet. E: office catte  Mebh fucked around with this message at 11:46 on Jan 25, 2021 |
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Jan 24, 2021 22:45
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namelesstwo posted:As someone not from the UK l, I’ve heard said many times that the tories will not allow another referendum for Scotland to leave the uk. Because that worked super well for Catalonia. Also, what rights?
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Jan 24, 2021 23:45
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Jaeluni Asjil posted:Hey I had a comment removed by the Graun because 'it did not abide by community standards' - it was something (with no swear words) about the Graun being worse than the Telegraph, Mail and Express because you knew they were right wing but the Graun pretends to be left but is really centre right. those comments really upset guardian journalists. please think of poor rafael behr, screaming himself into an early grave whenever he hears the white stripes
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Jan 25, 2021 00:03
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Jaeluni Asjil posted:Hey I had a comment removed by the Graun because 'it did not abide by community standards' - it was something (with no swear words) about the Graun being worse than the Telegraph, Mail and Express because you knew they were right wing but the Graun pretends to be left but is really centre right. It's rare to see a Guardian article about politics that even allows responses, it used to be the norm but after ~3 months of them posting identikit Corbynites? Useful Dupes or Bigots? guff and getting annihilated under the line they just stopped doing comments a few years ago. Not surprised that the comments are being heavily censored if they are now allowing them again. a pipe smoking dog posted:*a french person sweating in front of two buttons that say "fascisme"* That's the big question, 'socialism or barbarism' as options is usually ascribed to the lumpen working class and are both understood/communicated under a big dumb vague 'populism' umbrella, while the ongoing lefty assumption is that the neolib Macron types would ultimately break to barbarism but I'm not sure that's true. Obviously the ruling class of that tendency would support barbarism but I don't think they could bring their base to that, most shitlibs seem surprisingly comfortable going left if it's an option. gh0stpinballa posted:idk why but i'm feeling extreme melancholy about what we lost with corbyn tonight, having not thought about it much in months. obviously it was not perfect and some of it was poo poo and cringe but for a moment i saw the beach beneath the pavement my friends. and they loving stole it from me. Yeah I sometimes get that twinge, we briefly had a leader that not only didn't talk in focus group homilies but would actually talk in loving poetry https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAbZ7NXVc1w and it wasn't even performative it was 'this literally communicates what I'm holistically saying' it was real poo poo. It's okay to feel melancholy, it's not okay to give up.
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Jan 25, 2021 00:26
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gh0stpinballa posted:idk why but i'm feeling extreme melancholy about what we lost with corbyn tonight, having not thought about it much in months. obviously it was not perfect and some of it was poo poo and cringe but for a moment i saw the beach beneath the pavement my friends. and they loving stole it from me. I know how you feel. 2017 was a travesty and it was entirely the fault of the Labour right.
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Jan 25, 2021 00:47
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What I do not understand about Scottish independence is why one could assume it would ever happen without a civil war. From the outside, it seems like Scotland is essential. It has almost all British territorial waters for fishing, and resources etc. If it leaves, Britain has only small strips. Applying international rules of Eez would see Britain lose almost all oil and gas. In that case, what is left for Britain? Seems to me it’s only London aka the Finance industry. But how that will go is uncertain as well. And Britain is then essentially a non EU country boxed in by EU countries, without the ability to pull a Switzerland because it’ll lead to Tariffs with the new deal. Maybe I am overestimating this, but it seems that Scottish independence would be so devastating and existential a threat to the British that they would have to start a literal war.
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Jan 25, 2021 00:52
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Haramstufe Rot posted:What I do not understand about Scottish independence is why one could assume it would ever happen without a civil war. This is not a vaguely likely outcome.
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Jan 25, 2021 01:02
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Vitamin P posted:That's the big question, 'socialism or barbarism' as options is usually ascribed to the lumpen working class and are both understood/communicated under a big dumb vague 'populism' umbrella, while the ongoing lefty assumption is that the neolib Macron types would ultimately break to barbarism but I'm not sure that's true. Obviously the ruling class of that tendency would support barbarism but I don't think they could bring their base to that, most shitlibs seem surprisingly comfortable going left if it's an option. I'm not hugely surprised you consider criticising Jewish religious schools, forcing imams to register with the government and sign up to a "charter of republican values", and letting his security man dress up as a police officer to go beat the poo poo out of a protestor as "not barbarism".
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Jan 25, 2021 01:27
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I can see some people wanting a war, but I can't see anyone actually fighting one. If it's truly popular then it's essentially a fait accompli. You can send the tanks in and arrest the current Scottish government but then what? There's an entire nation now against you. Do you just start killing and/or arresting civilians until they give up? And then you just go back to normal? Secession from top down, when it's essentially a powerplay by autocrats can be easily put down. But that's not what Scottish independence is. It's bottom up. Regarde Aduck fucked around with this message at 01:30 on Jan 25, 2021 |
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Jan 25, 2021 01:28
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goddamnedtwisto posted:I'm not hugely surprised you consider criticising Jewish religious schools, forcing imams to register with the government and sign up to a "charter of republican values", and letting his security man dress up as a police officer to go beat the poo poo out of a protestor as "not barbarism". I effort posted against the French religious leader registration on free speech grounds in this very thread and literally started the thread about the Gilet jaunes protests when the DSMA Notice was clearly effective as no one else had started one so not sure what point you think you're making but go off king. Dunno what lore you're talking about with religious schools but yeah I think they're objectively bad regardless of the particular flavour.
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Jan 25, 2021 01:36
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Regarde Aduck posted:I can see some people wanting a war, but I can't see anyone actually fighting one. Er the history of popular revolutionary movements really really contradicts this. There's usually a militarised force raised from somewhere else that the ruling class is happy to deploy and keep redeploying new ones when they get slaughtered for geopolitical or nationalist reasoning. 'The ruling class will accept their loss of authority as legitimately grounded and so give in peacefully.' is probably non-existant throughout the entire length of human history.
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Jan 25, 2021 01:39
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Haramstufe Rot posted:What I do not understand about Scottish independence is why one could assume it would ever happen without a civil war. Fishing is worth less to the UK economy than vaping supplies, a sensible UK would tell them they're welcome to it (lol a sensible UK government, imagine such a thing ever existing). Oil and gas are a lot more complex, but the takeaway point is that the UK isn't making a profit on the North Sea fields any more (which is why they're fracking all over the place now and looking at sinking wells in the Irish Sea). A Scotland with a hard border with England and NI is *hosed* on a scale that the current Kent situation doesn't even cover. They import almost everything - food, medicine, consumer goods, etc - from or via England via rail and road, do not even begin to have enough port capacity to make it up. The only stuff moving in the other direction is petrochemicals and electricity (on windy days). There's nothing unfixable there of course - Scotland could definitely make a killing by tempting the non-bullshit bits of the UK economy (engineering, small-scale manufacturing, quite a lot of services) north of the border back into the EU - but that requires the entire economy to be completely reconfigured and absolutely massive investment in everything from ports to HVDC power lines, which all takes a lot of time, money and disruption to the point of near-impossibility if the rUK don't play along. A well-managed break with the UK would, like I say, be eminently doable and definitely advantageous to Scotland, but like I say that would require both the rUK and the EU to play along with it perfectly *when they have very little political incentive to do so*.
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Jan 25, 2021 01:59
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10 years (on 25th January!) since the Egyptian revolution got started (well depending how you define 'start'. 25th January is a 'police national holiday' day. I'm not sure if that is why it started that day. There was a lot of offline ground work done in advance so when people were called to demonstrate on the first big protest day of Friday 28th Jan in Tahrir Sq they would actually turn out* and there had been quite a lot of 'agitation' leading up to it since maybe 2008 or so with the strikes at the factories in Mahalla (Delta region) and the April 6th Movement (who were also key 'leaders' in the revolution and I believe are all in jail now) and the appalling death of Khaled Saeed who was kicked to death by police for no reason and the photo of whose kicked in head and dead body did the rounds on Egyptian facebook. *(There was a 'revolution school' somewhere - Croatia maybe? - that taught this was essential.) Also worth noting there were NO POLICE on the streets for about 6 months immediately after the revolution and crime was extremely low - less crime in 6 months than on a wet weekend in Walthamstow. Description of death - and one post mortem photo - of Khaled Saeed - don't read if of a sensitive disposition: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Khaled_Mohamed_Saeed I relive my experience of the revolution every year and difficult to believe it is 10 years ago now. It seems very fresh in my mind. Jaeluni Asjil fucked around with this message at 02:10 on Jan 25, 2021 |
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Jan 25, 2021 02:03
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Jaeluni Asjil posted:10 years (on 25th January!) since the Egyptian revolution got started (well depending how you define 'start'. Yeah historiography of revolutions is always wrong until you really focus in on it because no one is really interested in telling the truth - the anti- forces want to decry it as conspiratorial evil forces seizing vital bits and pieces behind the scenes with their own nefarious schemes and the successful revolutionary forces want to relay how innately correct their own political program and organisation resonated with the public at the critical moments in history to grant them power. In reality there's decades of organisation and totally embarrassing gently caress ups before the combinations of structures of material production and social forces combined to create a successful revolution. Anyway solidarity with the Egyptian revolutionaries who achieved a huge amount but couldn't hold onto it in the face of imperial backlash. May their day come again soon.
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Jan 25, 2021 02:14
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namesake posted:Yeah historiography of revolutions is always wrong until you really focus in on it because no one is really interested in telling the truth - the anti- forces want to decry it as conspiratorial evil forces seizing vital bits and pieces behind the scenes with their own nefarious schemes and the successful revolutionary forces want to relay how innately correct their own political program and organisation resonated with the public at the critical moments in history to grant them power. In reality there's decades of organisation and totally embarrassing gently caress ups before the combinations of structures of material production and social forces combined to create a successful revolution. I learned a lot about how not to do a revolution from that experience! And observing other rebellions and so forth since, I would say the single big lacking factor is WHAT HAPPENS NEXT once you have got rid of whoever you're trying to get rid of. The first elections (which ended up with Morsi & Muslim Brotherhood winning) had over 130 political parties standing - the ballot papers were huge (I couldn't vote as I didn't have citizenship), and many of the parties were single issue. And Pratchett got it right - can't remember which book now - but so many thought 'have a revolution and straightaway I'll have more money in my pocket and a better job title'
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Jan 25, 2021 02:18
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Jaeluni Asjil posted:I learned a lot about how not to do a revolution from that experience! And observing other rebellions and so forth since, I would say the single big lacking factor is WHAT HAPPENS NEXT once you have got rid of whoever you're trying to get rid of. The first elections (which ended up with Morsi & Muslim Brotherhood winning) had over 130 political parties standing - the ballot papers were huge (I couldn't vote as I didn't have citizenship), and many of the parties were single issue. And Pratchett got it right - can't remember which book now - but so many thought 'have a revolution and straightaway I'll have more money in my pocket and a better job title' Well yeah if a revolution actually takes on the bosses then they should get more money in their pocket! Anyone who doesn't fight for their own interests directly will be removed from the discussion asap and so I guess that's why there's the proliferation of single issue parties etc but they need to understand that demands aren't enough, they need power and numbers to get them. Without that then the smaller but more organised parties with platforms that can get people out for all sorts of reasons and have the resources to advertise or hold events or whatever will win - that's how human democracy functions right now.
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Jan 25, 2021 02:34
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Vitamin P posted:I effort posted against the French religious leader registration on free speech grounds in this very thread and literally started the thread about the Gilet jaunes protests when the DSMA Notice was clearly effective as no one else had started one so not sure what point you think you're making but go off king. He’s saying you’re a loving racist, mate, hth. He’s right as well.
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Jan 25, 2021 02:46
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I went to Tahrir Square (actually on International Women's Day March 8th 2011) and all I got was this lousy paint-job on my hand. I'm glad I went (despite my fears) - including 2 hours on the dreaded microbus and big green bus and looking decidedly not-Egyptian and the strange experience of everyone being EXTREMELY POLITE. (Like in London where no matter how outrageous the costume or whatever, that 'nothing unusual is going on' look). The day after I went the army kicked everyone out of the square and tore down all the tents. At least I got to wander round the camp, have a 'discussion' with a secret policeman (they wear a particular kind of leather jacket with knitted cuffs so you can tell) trying to explain that International Women's Day was an international thing on a fixed day and not Western Women trying to destroy the lives of Egyptian Women who were (supposedly) happy and content with the Egyptian equivalent of Kinder, Küche, Kirche and the fact that it occurred so near to the revolution was entirely coincidence.
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Jan 25, 2021 02:47
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goddamnedtwisto posted:Fishing is worth less to the UK economy than vaping supplies, a sensible UK would tell them they're welcome to it (lol a sensible UK government, imagine such a thing ever existing). EU can do all that lifting and there's definitely political incentives to help Scotland. The Haramstufe Rot post made me literally laugh because it's missing the point so hard.
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Jan 25, 2021 02:52
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Spangly A posted:those comments really upset guardian journalists. please think of poor rafael behr, screaming himself into an early grave whenever he hears the white stripes
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Jan 25, 2021 05:31
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I haven't stopped being angry about it. Not melancholy, just angry.
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Jan 25, 2021 05:59
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Kin posted:
This is what pissed me off. We loving had it under control, in my region we were down to like 2 new cases a week.
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Jan 25, 2021 08:16
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Jaeluni Asjil posted:a secret policeman (they wear a particular kind of leather jacket with knitted cuffs so you can tell) This doesn't sound very secret.
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Jan 25, 2021 09:19
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Knitted cuffs? I bet they're easy to get out of
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Jan 25, 2021 09:56
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Regarde Aduck posted:I can see some people wanting a war, but I can't see anyone actually fighting one. namesake posted:Er the history of popular revolutionary movements really really contradicts this. There's usually a militarised force raised from somewhere else that the ruling class is happy to deploy and keep redeploying new ones when they get slaughtered for geopolitical or nationalist reasoning.
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Jan 25, 2021 10:08
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Guavanaut posted:Yeah if anything the history of violence indicates that the bottom up popular movements often get referred to as martyrs and sometimes get some token reform or a made-for-tv movie 200 years after the fact, Michael Collins only took 70 years to get a major Hollywood movie 
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Jan 25, 2021 10:11
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Yes, there's also the people who ride the middle line enough that they manage to be both organized and irregular, they can sometimes get change and recognition and movies and also become martyrs by the people ostensibly on their own side who don't like compromise.
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Jan 25, 2021 10:23
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I suppose Mandela is a similar example. Biko...harder to classify but he got the movie pretty quickly so that's ... something?
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Jan 25, 2021 10:27
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goddamnedtwisto posted:Fishing is worth less to the UK economy than vaping supplies, a sensible UK would tell them they're welcome to it (lol a sensible UK government, imagine such a thing ever existing). Fishing is worth less than the music industry, but didn't stop the cunts making it impossible for unsigned artists to tour in the EU (gotta keep those Polish bands out taking all our musician jobs). Apart from international embarrassment, the only real reason to 'keep' Scotland are the deep water submarine bases at Faslane and Coulport, which cannot be replicated anywhere else in England /Wales.
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Jan 25, 2021 10:30
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Failed Imagineer posted:I suppose Mandela is a similar example. Biko...harder to classify but he got the movie pretty quickly so that's ... something? Biko getting a movie quickly is a good example of when the media owners want to weigh in but don't want to get their hands too dirty, hence the lack of big budget equivalents about Fred Hampton until very recently, because it was a bit too next door for their liking.
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Jan 25, 2021 10:35
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keep punching joe posted:Apart from international embarrassment, the only real reason to 'keep' Scotland are the deep water submarine bases at Faslane and Coulport, which cannot be replicated anywhere else in England /Wales. Use one of the nukes to make part of the Thames a bit deeper.
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Jan 25, 2021 10:36
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Meanwhile in the town I used to live in, in the Netherlands. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-01-24/dutch-police-clash-with-rioters-in-netherlands/13087854 And several other places.
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Jan 25, 2021 11:20
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sinky posted:Use one of the nukes to make part of the Thames a bit deeper. Save money on the nuke, the SS Richard Montgomery is right there.
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Jan 25, 2021 11:30
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keep punching joe posted:Fishing is worth less than the music industry, but didn't stop the cunts making it impossible for unsigned artists to tour in the EU (gotta keep those Polish bands out taking all our musician jobs). Devonport? https://www.navylookout.com/upgrading-the-royal-navys-nuclear-submarine-support-facilities/ https://rusi.org/sites/default/files/201408_op_relocation_relocation_relocation.pdf knox_harrington fucked around with this message at 11:40 on Jan 25, 2021 |
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Jan 25, 2021 11:33
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Some Tory MPs kicking up a fuss so of course he's bottling it and going to get a ton more people killed https://twitter.com/joepike/status/1353649558367166464?s=19
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Jan 25, 2021 11:35
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Mebh posted:Meanwhile in the town I used to live in, in the Netherlands. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-01-24/dutch-police-clash-with-rioters-in-netherlands/13087854 quote:The video shows police spraying people grouped against a wall of the Van Gogh Museum.  Portugal is attempting a fascism again  quote:When the Black Lives Matter movement brought tens of thousands of people to the streets across the country, Ventura hosted a “Portugal Is Not A Racist Country” counterdemonstration. Despite the slogan, he was photographed seemingly doing a Nazi salute. Month after month, thanks to political exposés, candid interviews, and a lot of fact-checking reportage, Ventura and his party got hours of screen time. And that was exactly what he wanted.
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Jan 25, 2021 11:36
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Jose posted:Some Tory MPs kicking up a fuss so of course he's bottling it and going to get a ton more people killed This poo poo is so infuriating. Either do it properly or don't bother. What's the point in losing Christmas and spending a month indoors when any potential long term benefit will be pissed away as soon as things get a tiny bit difficult for the oval office in charge?
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Jan 25, 2021 11:45
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Not the only place completely loving it though https://twitter.com/aidan_smx/status/1353572394695180293?s=19
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Jan 25, 2021 11:54
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Mebh posted:Meanwhile in the town I used to live in, in the Netherlands. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-01-24/dutch-police-clash-with-rioters-in-netherlands/13087854 Eindhoven! I went there a couple of times in the early 1990s to the Dynamo Festival. There used to be a good metal bar there called something like Cockroach or Grasshopper or something. The last time we went, the bar had closed down.
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Jan 25, 2021 11:56
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Jose posted:Some Tory MPs kicking up a fuss so of course he's bottling it and going to get a ton more people killed https://twitter.com/joepike/status/1353658183252930560?s=20 lol
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Jan 25, 2021 11:58
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