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sincx posted:Wrong thread My apologies. I just searched for threads with China in the title. It was this or the Canadian gun thread.
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Dec 21, 2020 15:23
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Does somebody have any good read ups or compilations of evidence on what exactly is happening in Xinjiang? I frequent some more tankie inclined discords and they swear up and down there is no good evidence for what you hear in the news about concentration camps, or that's its mostly manufactured by Adrian Zenz at the behest of Western interests. Not that I think that's automatically untrue, but I would like to know where I could find reliable information, if there is any.
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Jan 4, 2021 02:49
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https://shahit.biz/eng/ is a good start if you want primary sources untainted by the weird apocalyptic Christian fundamentalist
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Jan 4, 2021 02:53
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there's a thing called new york times and this was on there: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/11/16/world/asia/china-xinjiang-documents.html "More than 400 pages of internal Chinese documents provide an unprecedented inside look at the crackdown on ethnic minorities in the Xinjiang region." feizhouxiongdi2 fucked around with this message at 03:17 on Jan 6, 2021 |
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Jan 6, 2021 03:12
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IMO you can't really call yourself a tankie/ML and support China as it is now. It's a state capitalist economy and if you look at the CCP's long-term plans there's little sign that they really plan to change that anytime soon. I think some tankies just really want to believe that the 2nd most powerful country in the world is on their side and just waiting in the wings to save us from capitalism. E: CCP != China
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Jan 6, 2021 06:11
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Tankies are just anti-American. If a country is anti-American then it is good.
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Jan 6, 2021 06:29
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At the risk of starting a whole long derail, Tankies are supporters of regimes that are non-US aligned, typically supporting the more authoritarian elements if they give any fig leaf to socialism. The CCP not really being Communist isn't far out of line with support from Tankies. The simple fact that state repression or imperialism is being criticised by the West would be enough proof that it's good actually for them. At least following the original meaning of the term (plenty of socialists and communists thought sending tanks into Hungary and Prague was horrific imposition of state power and essentially a continuation of Russian Imperialism making them question whether the USSR was in fact a Communist state under Stalin rather than a rebranding of Tsarism).
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Jan 6, 2021 12:55
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All you need to fine tune the "-ism" argument is change the word "Communism" to "China-favored State Capitalism".
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Jan 6, 2021 15:32
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I mean the CCP don't even call it communism. It's 'socialism with Chinese characteristics for a new-era,', with at this stage the economic policy calling for a greater role of the market/market forces.
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Jan 10, 2021 14:08
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I saw posts on a subforum here once how trump winning and making the US weaker would make china spread global socialism everywhere, I am not entirely sure what drugs they were on.
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Jan 12, 2021 09:28
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adoration for none posted:IMO you can't really call yourself a tankie/ML and support China as it is now. It's a state capitalist economy and if you look at the CCP's long-term plans there's little sign that they really plan to change that anytime soon. I don't think the categorical label of "state capitalist" is all that helpful or insightful. Clearly there are political intentions behind economic decisions in the state-owned economy besides simple profit/capital accumulation as the label would suggest. Maintaining employment in SOEs, infrastructure investment, and agricultural policy for self-sufficiency all would seem to me to plausibly fit the label socialist. At the same time there is a profit/accumulation focused state sector of the economy, and the private economy as well. The two operate in tandem and feed into/off of each other The "State Capitalist" label and its application to the USSR as far as I understood it came from basically the nuttiest Trot sects, and is applied to basically any case where any economic growth or capital accumulation is happening at all icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 10:13 on Jan 12, 2021 |
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Jan 12, 2021 10:09
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icantfindaname posted:I don't think the categorical label of "state capitalist" is all that helpful or insightful. Clearly there are political intentions behind economic decisions in the state-owned economy besides simple profit/capital accumulation as the label would suggest. Maintaining employment in SOEs, infrastructure investment, and agricultural policy for self-sufficiency all would seem to me to plausibly fit the label socialist. At the same time there is a profit/accumulation focused state sector of the economy, and the private economy as well. The two operate in tandem and feed into/off of each other You can just think of it as a term that has evolved to mean something else. Much like "socialism" itself has.
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Jan 12, 2021 11:12
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actually, the prc is a deformed workers state. in this essay i will
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Jan 12, 2021 11:19
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Ah so you admit that it's a worker's state, interesting.
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Jan 12, 2021 11:22
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no i'm mocking trotskyists
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Jan 12, 2021 11:27
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icantfindaname posted:I don't think the categorical label of "state capitalist" is all that helpful or insightful. Clearly there are political intentions behind economic decisions in the state-owned economy besides simple profit/capital accumulation as the label would suggest. Maintaining employment in SOEs, infrastructure investment, and agricultural policy for self-sufficiency all would seem to me to plausibly fit the label socialist. At the same time there is a profit/accumulation focused state sector of the economy, and the private economy as well. The two operate in tandem and feed into/off of each other If you think about socialism as economic democracy and capitalism as economic dictatorship, then "state capitalism" makes sense. You could also think of it as an economic system where capitalist exploitation is permitted under state control. Sure, the Chinese state may not operate in the same way a private corporation does, but fundamentally it governs the economy without democratic control by the people and private corporations still exist profiting from exploitation. "State capitalism" was also a term used by Engels and Bakunin with different definitions before Trotsky, in essence describing a system where the state controls the economy but capitalist exploitation is still permitted. Lenin also used the term for the NEP as a transitional state to a socialist economy governed by workers. So it's not an exclusively Trot term. I guess, what would you call China's economy? Does it matter? E: I think this is just one of those things where if you put a dozen leftists in a room, you're going to get a dozen different answers and I don't think it matters what our definitions are as long as we can agree that China is a bad model for socialism. America Inc. fucked around with this message at 22:37 on Jan 13, 2021 |
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Jan 13, 2021 22:07
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Dengconomic
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Jan 14, 2021 00:03
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adoration for none posted:If you think about socialism as economic democracy and capitalism as economic dictatorship, then "state capitalism" makes sense. You could also think of it as an economic system where capitalist exploitation is permitted under state control. Sure, the Chinese state may not operate in the same way a private corporation does, but fundamentally it governs the economy without democratic control by the people and private corporations still exist profiting from exploitation. Capital accumulation of any kind is going to require exploitation of surplus value in the sense that it's not immediately consumed by the workers, so by this definition any kind of economic growth or development automatically makes you state capitalist and socialism in Russia or China was by definition impossible unless they were going to stay subsistence peasants forever. The process of accumulation in China is obviously not democratically controlled, but it is politically controlled and I would argue for purposes besides growth for its own sake. I would define state capitalism as state-facilitated or planned growth basically just for its own sake. There are forces in China that are in favor of that but it's further away from the ideal type than say South Korea which is probably the purest example I think it's useful to see China as a kind of developmentalist, revisionist social democracy, sort of similar to like Mexico under the PRI
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Jan 14, 2021 00:23
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Since there's no such thing as stateless capitalism, and states with capitalism tend to be very interested in serving the needs of the capitalists, (if you're uncharitable like me perhaps you'd conclude that's the state's fundamental purpose) all capitalism is state capitalism, no? The line between state ownership of corporations and state subsidy of and state policy crafted for corporations is pretty weak, in my view.
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Jan 14, 2021 06:37
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Look, in the year [REDACTED], when China's economy has developed sufficiently, the chairman finally flips the 'full communism now' switch, and the country becomes a utopian paradise, a shining beacon of civilisation amongst the chaos of late capitalist stagnation, guess who'll be laughing? Not me lol because I'll be a spooky skeleton underground long before that happens E: More seriously, I often wonder what became of the actual communists in the communist party. Given it was a... well, a communist party, there must still be a few members holding the torch, unless deng legit had them all purged which seems a tall order given there are still people alive who were/are so committed to the cause they literally picked up a rifle and fought in the revolution for it. E2: like, the pasokification of nominally left/labour parties in liberal democracies makes sense, but I don't see how it happens in a mass party like the CCP ThomasPaine fucked around with this message at 15:52 on Jan 14, 2021 |
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Jan 14, 2021 15:36
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ThomasPaine posted:Look, in the year [REDACTED], when China's economy has developed sufficiently, the chairman finally flips the 'full communism now' switch, and the country becomes a utopian paradise, a shining beacon of civilisation amongst the chaos of late capitalist stagnation, guess who'll be laughing? They got killed in 1927 or purged by Mao in the 30s
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Jan 14, 2021 22:46
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There's a pretty strong New Left contingent in the CPC, it's just not the dominant faction. Bo Xilai should've won, etc.
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Jan 14, 2021 23:08
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sincx fucked around with this message at 05:45 on Mar 23, 2021 |
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Jan 14, 2021 23:41
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tbf I know a few British businessman and I can't say I blame either of them
ThomasPaine fucked around with this message at 00:51 on Jan 15, 2021 |
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Jan 15, 2021 00:46
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Bo never had any chance. If he some how successfully assassinated Xi somebody else would have replaced Xi. If Bo was on the inside track to join the standing committee he wouldn't be sent to Chongqing. That position is not a grooming position. Xi already had the mandate from the elders to clamp down on corruption when he was crowned. Keep in mind Xi had an advantage over Bo during the final competition, he only has a daughtor, and a very young one. Same for Li Keqiang. Both of Bo's marriage were with red elites. And his second wife contributed to his downfall. stephenthinkpad fucked around with this message at 01:19 on Jan 15, 2021 |
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Jan 15, 2021 01:16
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sincx fucked around with this message at 05:45 on Mar 23, 2021 |
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Jan 24, 2021 01:53
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sincx posted:Quoting for the record. For what record?
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Jan 24, 2021 22:15
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GlassEye-Boy posted:For what record? I guess apparently the dudes a perv, according to someone on twitter or something. But I'm not sure where the line is for doxing and stuff, or where something should stick to pms with mods, etc.
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Jan 25, 2021 00:00
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GlassEye-Boy posted:For what record? HK Hermit has been accused of being a pedo by someone he lived with https://twitter.com/anonjoxter/status/1352825410283855872?s=21 Is it true? Hard to know since its based on the posts of an anonymous twitter account. HK Hermit’s responses on twitter indicate that he does personally know this Joxter guy, though. I can’t link them here because HKH has since locked down his twitter account
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Jan 25, 2021 10:37
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There are a multitude of stories of true believers in communism getting pushed out or sidelined within the CCP and the government 100% has clamped down on protestors using communist rhetoric. poo poo my family will laugh in your face if you imply membership means anything ideologically. Like poo poo I have a family member who was both a party member and in charge or commercial loans. Nowadays its knowing Xi Jinping thought or so I hear
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Jan 25, 2021 13:43
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China has forcefully shut down marxist school or study groups and has arrested and blacklisted marxist academics, and it's been a not-secret-secret thing for a while now within the party that marxism is used as a messaging prop but is thoroughly disallowed from any usage in practice, so you get reminded to never actually become anything remotely marxist unless you enjoy being shut out of the circles of power. A couple of students who have gone on to be able to talk about their experience getting shut down and blacklisted for being actual marxists in China later noted that it felt very weird to experience being a marxist cracked down on by a supposedly marxist ruling party. They spent years having thought they were doing right by the party by being young academic marxists applying marxism -- then they have it all heavily and unsubtly shut down because workers' rights and worker organization efforts are anathema to the state in its actual form and apparatus.
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Jan 25, 2021 14:26
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It's fascinating honestly. Must have been one hell of a civil war in the party to get it where it is today in that case. I just can't imagine the old Maoists taking the seizure of their party by capitalists and landlords lying down, especially given the history and the man himself explicitly warning about the danger of it happening. I guess there might well have been, but kept well out of the public eye.
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Jan 25, 2021 14:37
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ThomasPaine posted:It's fascinating honestly. Must have been one hell of a civil war in the party to get it where it is today in that case. I just can't imagine the old Maoists taking the seizure of their party by capitalists and landlords lying down, especially given the history and the man himself explicitly warning about the danger of it happening. I guess there might well have been, but kept well out of the public eye. There was and it was public; the cultural revolution. Everything starting with Deng has been a careful campaign of grinding them out and finishing the fight. Like there are staggeringly few if any true believers in the party because even if you joined bright eyed at age 18 in 1978 you are 60 years old now. Barudak fucked around with this message at 15:09 on Jan 25, 2021 |
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Jan 25, 2021 15:05
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I'm a little skeptical that Deng would have intended China being what it is now. Wanting it to be prosperous yes, completely eschewing marxist principles I don't think was the plan. Deng's struggle was more about locking out the sorts of people out of power who would continue the nonsense of the Cultural Revolution like the Gang of Four.
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Jan 26, 2021 02:56
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I kind of feel that the lesson the Chinese party learned from the collapse of the Soviet Union wasn't, as some people have claimed, that democratic reforms lead to the west forcing evil capitalism on you but that evil capitalism was the way to go and they had to avoid political reforms.
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Jan 26, 2021 09:13
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MrNemo posted:I kind of feel that the lesson the Chinese party learned from the collapse of the Soviet Union wasn't, as some people have claimed, that democratic reforms lead to the west forcing evil capitalism on you but that evil capitalism was the way to go and they had to avoid political reforms. Eh, aside from capitalism not really being "forced" on the Soviet Union so much as the leadership jumping in head first I think you are correct in that the lesson there was more that people with any sort of power in the system could turn it into fantastical personal gains with a bit of evil capitalism. I mean the latest Navalny video on Putin's palace contains a whole bunch of examples of how enterprising people with some connections set themselves up as the new nobility.
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Jan 27, 2021 01:41
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Hey thread. For my own curiosity I want to make a comparison to the US food stamp program to its Chinese equivalent in a casual chat. Can anyone steer me to a link or the proper google search term to start? This is for the purposes of comparing the ease of access to food for the poor, homeless, or say in the current pandemic situ. \/Thats wonderful, but seriously Im dumb and every variation of Chinese State Food Program leads me to Chinese language food stamp programs for Brooklyn. Surely they have a food program for the elderly , disabled, or those requiring emergency aid. Gaj fucked around with this message at 03:50 on Jan 27, 2021 |
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Jan 27, 2021 03:36
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AFAIK china doesn’t have a homeless population.
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Jan 27, 2021 03:44
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Gaj posted:Hey thread. For my own curiosity I want to make a comparison to the US food stamp program to its Chinese equivalent in a casual chat. Can anyone steer me to a link or the proper google search term to start? This is for the purposes of comparing the ease of access to food for the poor, homeless, or say in the current pandemic situ. Don’t know of any official foot stamp equivalent. However standard groceries are cheap enough where it isn’t a huge burden on a families budget, unless your buying a lot of beef or other non local proteins. There is a significant program to provide subsidized/free housing.
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Jan 27, 2021 04:38
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So basically, outside of emergency relief efforts, there is no national food aid program for China? However, there is no food poverty or food insecurity as there is in the US, because the rest of society is so subsided/supported as to make the issue moot?
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Jan 27, 2021 06:10
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