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Yawgmoth posted:Now I'm wondering what kind of ~*secret info*~ she could have told us, but I'm pretty sure we made the right decision on eating her anyways. I'm sure you'll get to learn plenty of her secrets anyway, in the form of crazed whispers drowning out your thoughts over the coming centuries.
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Jan 25, 2021 18:29
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Super interesting! Thank u all for the involved posting. It reminds me a lot of Demon - mechanically interesting, very flexible, but a lot to keep track of. Like how I straight up forget the whole condition / beat system or lose track of aether.
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Jan 25, 2021 18:36
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How's the flavor text? I was turned off hard by some of the 'Deviants no longer have an appropriate threat response stimulus' stuff.
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Jan 26, 2021 00:45
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I don't know how many people are backing the Masks of the Mythos / Dragon KS for Scion here but today's update had a snippet about Masks that's pretty interesting: a parallel, distinct-from-your-Legend-but-also-a-power-stat-for-Mythos-stuff stat, Awareness. Now, why does Awareness matter? 1, it's another pool of Legend-like points to spend (though recovering them requires accepting a Mythos fatebinding, which one imagines will be just fuckin awful), and 2, Awareness means if you're a Scion of the Old Ones / Mythos pantheon, when you get a Purview from one of those beings, you can pick the Awareness version of it instead. The give two examples, but I'll just mention Order, because it really shows how the lines diverge. Regular version of Order is, it's a Purview about law, truth, etc. The innate power lets you sense the laws of any jurisdiction you're in and tell if anything's legal/illegal. On top of that, mortal law enforcement cannot "take action against you" or "overreach the bounds of their authority." You can rules-as-written people with the power of the universe behind you, as long as you're coloring within the lines. Awareness Order is the stagnation of things, the tendency towards breakdown into inert nothing. The innate power lets you short electrical outlets, drain people's phones and batteries (including cars) within about 3m-30m, with no roll. End a car chase. Cut the power to a magnetic lock. Engage in horror movie narrative conventions freely. It's neat!
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Jan 27, 2021 23:19
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Ah, you can get Insight from Bloodborne, that tracks.
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Jan 28, 2021 04:45
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Crasical posted:How's the flavor text? Well, the opening story's opening paragraph has the POV character saying 'I am so done with this amateur bullshit.' I don't know why, but that made me laugh, not in a good way. Maybe they're trying to go for 'scared kid trying to sound experienced and tough,' but that's not the sense having continued to read. There's just something about the writing in modern WoD books that seems really pretentious. But hey, V:TM was probably just as bad, I was just too young to be critical of it. I dislike how they make up big psuedo-Latin and pseudo-Greek words that don't mean what they think they mean. I dislike how they think that random conspiracies are all going to use the same terminology. "Yup, Cletus, we're going to summon the Lord of Goats into Jimmy-Bob here, to create a co-active autourge.' They try to take a lot of wildly different sub-genres and mash them all together, and then contrive up reasons for RoboCop, Alien Hybrid Ripley, Carrie and Venom to all be hanging out in the same abandoned building, with forced mechanics to drive them towards dying uselessly. I dunno. I love the concept. I love how in the introduction, they use RoboCop as an example, because it's exactly what I was thinking. But it's also like they're trying way too hard to cram this into the WoD mold, and feel, and idiom, and conventions, and writing style, and what not. If it were just a standalone game called 'Broken Souls' or something, it might come across different. I keep thinking to myself that this is just a reskin of Promethean. It covers a lot of the same themes, a lot of the same concepts. I'm still trying to figure out what Deviant is really 'getting at,' so to speak, the way Beast was 'Abuser: The Justification.' Trying to decode some of the word choices, some of the comparisons. I'm still enjoying reading it, though. TheCenturion fucked around with this message at 19:56 on Jan 29, 2021 |
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Jan 29, 2021 19:53
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TheCenturion posted:But hey, V:TM was probably just as bad, I was just too young to be critical of it. Narrator's voice: More than you can possibly imagine.
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Jan 30, 2021 00:16
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I'm playing an unbondable character in V5 for the first time and I've used it a couple times to make deals with vampires that are... no longer with us let's say. But I feel like I'm maybe missing more clever ways I could make use of the merit. Any creative ways you peeps have seen it used before?
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Jan 30, 2021 09:25
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TheKingslayer posted:I'm playing an unbondable character in V5 for the first time and I've used it a couple times to make deals with vampires that are... no longer with us let's say. But I feel like I'm maybe missing more clever ways I could make use of the merit. Any creative ways you peeps have seen it used before? For a ghoul, well, let's just say that with a certain degree of determination and sufficient liquid storage, you CAN have all of the benefits and none of the downsides. Humanity checks may be on the way. For a vampire, you only really have one trick - You can accept Blood Bonds with no downside, especially if you can learn how to act. But it's a really good trick.
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Jan 30, 2021 11:28
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Nessus posted:For a ghoul, well, let's just say that with a certain degree of determination and sufficient liquid storage, you CAN have all of the benefits and none of the downsides. Humanity checks may be on the way. "Seize the Means of Production" has never been so literal.
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Jan 31, 2021 02:38
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Vaguely related, 'Carthians don't see humans as fellow workers but instead as the means of production' is still the best one-sentence hook for a Covenant I've read yet. 
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Jan 31, 2021 03:32
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Does anyone have the old Mage: the Awakening art of the free council guy showing a village of african children a computer tower? I need it for an internet argument with my group, thanks in advance
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Jan 31, 2021 06:39
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magechat enabler.
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Jan 31, 2021 06:51
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Crasical posted:magechat enabler. I may have posited that the Free Council is the DSA and that the Silver Ladder is Justice Democrats in the middle of all this, so...
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Jan 31, 2021 07:13
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Saman posted:I may have posited that the Free Council is the DSA and that the Silver Ladder is Justice Democrats in the middle of all this, so... The Silver Ladder are clearly Marxist-Leninists.
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Jan 31, 2021 16:26
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https://www.dicebreaker.com/games/v...Fl46H6dGfN6s8kY loving LOL Apparently V5 > D&D for addressing racism.
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Jan 31, 2021 16:55
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I mean current d&d loving sucks, so it's a low bar to clear; still, they did the bare minimum in not being outwardly racist anymore, and I guess that's worth saluting
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Jan 31, 2021 17:40
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ElNarez posted:I mean current d&d loving sucks, so it's a low bar to clear; still, they did the bare minimum in not being outwardly racist anymore, and I guess that's worth saluting Sad but true. The Vistani remain obstinately a thing, don't they?
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Jan 31, 2021 18:05
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I thought the art in d&d was making a point to include multiple skin tones and body types?
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Jan 31, 2021 18:25
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Soonmot posted:I thought the art in d&d was making a point to include multiple skin tones and body types? I think the recent controversy was pushing for an end to racial ability modifiers.
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Jan 31, 2021 18:29
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Soonmot posted:I thought the art in d&d was making a point to include multiple skin tones and body types? They also included LGBTQ+ in the artwork, too. It isn't a complete and total fix, but its a step in the right direction.
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Jan 31, 2021 18:32
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Kavak posted:I think the recent controversy was pushing for an end to racial ability modifiers. I mean. In that case they’re very literally different races. It’s not like only some humans get +2 starting wealth and others get -2. It’s a big rear end orc that gets +strength or w/e. Kind of like a grizzly bear versus a chimpanzee. But V5 absolutely does not get a gold star for fixing a problem they started in the line.
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Jan 31, 2021 18:40
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Jhet posted:I mean. In that case they’re very literally different races. It’s not like only some humans get +2 starting wealth and others get -2. It’s a big rear end orc that gets +strength or w/e. Kind of like a grizzly bear versus a chimpanzee. The issue is when you have stats like "Wisdom" "Intelligence" and "charisma" that are affected by racial ability score modifiers, and the fact that minmaxing means that an orc will always be at a disadvantage in any class where those 3 ability scores matter. Hence the reason they added the "do whatever the gently caress you want with ability scores" rule.
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Jan 31, 2021 18:43
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Kurieg posted:The issue is when you have stats like "Wisdom" "Intelligence" and "charisma" that are affected by racial ability score modifiers, and the fact that minmaxing means that an orc will always be at a disadvantage in any class where those 3 ability scores matter. Hence the reason they added the "do whatever the gently caress you want with ability scores" rule. Also some races being Always Chaotic Evil. I mean, even Tolkien realized that ages ago.
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Jan 31, 2021 18:54
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Kurieg posted:The issue is when you have stats like "Wisdom" "Intelligence" and "charisma" that are affected by racial ability score modifiers, and the fact that minmaxing means that an orc will always be at a disadvantage in any class where those 3 ability scores matter. Hence the reason they added the "do whatever the gently caress you want with ability scores" rule. I mean, yes? An otter will also be at a disadvantage compared to a gorilla when it comes to those things. They’re also going to be at an advantage when it comes to the things they’re more likely to be good at doing. Should I be upset because I can’t swim as well as a dolphin or should I just appreciate dolphins for being able to swim better than me? My point is that it’s actually races in D&D and not just same race and different colored skin. V5 went in hard on being actually racist and they’re getting a gold star for cleaning up the mess they created.
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Jan 31, 2021 19:09
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Jhet posted:I mean, yes? An otter will also be at a disadvantage compared to a gorilla when it comes to those things. They’re also going to be at an advantage when it comes to the things they’re more likely to be good at doing. Should I be upset because I can’t swim as well as a dolphin or should I just appreciate dolphins for being able to swim better than me? Do you not see how "The best that Orcs can aspire to is being the big dumb muscle to their intellectual betters" is problematic? particularly when 1) Orcs are not only sapient but interfertile with humans (and by extension elves in theory) and 2) You keep comparing orcs to gorillas?
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Jan 31, 2021 19:25
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I also compared them to dolphins and otters and grizzly bears. If they’re going to have different species, gnomes and elves and even orcs, then I don’t see the problem with having differences. Now, if they started with some dumb racial comparison to humans (which all things inevitably have some comparison for us), then there can be problems with how it’s framed. Did D&D do a great job of this always? No. But when we start equating fantasy races and not actually different human “races” with the same vernacular, we’re closing up possibilities for learning that people can be different, have different skills, have different strengths, and all be important. Orcs, trolls, and goblins are very old, and come from times and places where I’m not sure we can reasonably say they’re inherently humanly racist. People have definitely used them to portray and reinforce that, but can we critically see the difference between the was and the is? I’ve used these things to highlight how crappy it is to treat people differently because they’re born with lots of muscle and less ability with intellect. Or how bullying because you’re born big is actually a terrible thing to do. Or how it’s difficult to break stereotypes in a closed minded world. You could take out the negatives and people would still complain that they can’t play their halfling warrior as well as a troll warrior. Can there be issues with how that’s portrayed too? Absolutely, but I’ll take a company that’s still openly working on it versus one that washes it and pretends they did a good job cleaning up a problem they caused themselves. V5 is racist, and they don’t get plaudits because a new editor took out the white supremacy. D&D have been working for many years to be more inclusive and still allow people to be different and still important. V5 started a dumpster fire, and then just closed the lid to leave it burn out. There’s no opportunity for learning or expanding in their form of radically terrible discrimination and hate.
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Jan 31, 2021 19:49
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They killed racial modifiers in the new 5e book so this is a moot discussion.
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Jan 31, 2021 19:52
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Blockhouse posted:They killed racial modifiers in the new 5e book so this is a moot discussion. I thought they only took out negative ones but left in the positives?
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Jan 31, 2021 19:53
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Kavak posted:I thought they only took out negative ones but left in the positives? The new Tasha's book lets you move your racial bonuses around however you want. And even trade out racial features if you want to be an elf who doesn't have a capacity for bows literally written into their DNA. This is apparently going to be the standard and is the 'default' option in the adventure league even without picking Tasha's as your +1 book.
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Jan 31, 2021 19:56
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That's better than I thought. I think the comparisons between D&D races and real-world "races" are incredibly overblown, but if they're going that route they need to avoid the "positive stereotypes are good" pitfall.
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Jan 31, 2021 20:00
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Stats are a boring way to differentiate fantasy races anyways and they pointlessly restrict character concepts. Go ham on more unique abilities instead.
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Jan 31, 2021 20:18
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Obligatum VII posted:Stats are a boring way to differentiate fantasy races anyways and they pointlessly restrict character concepts. Go ham on more unique abilities instead. Yeah. To elaborate on this: fantasy races being essentially pigeonholed to specific classes because it's what they're best at creates the illusion of choice while 99% of the combinations are just a trap. On the other hand, if racial/upbringing/whatever abilities are perpendicular to class, you create a much greater range of viable combinations and it becomes a much more interesting choice.
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Jan 31, 2021 20:26
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Half-elves, half-orcs, Muls (half-dwarves), Genasi (half-elementals), Tiefligns (half-demons) etc. are all fertile. Therefore in Dungeons and Dragons the comparison between IRL humans dolphins isn't appropriate. What isappropriate is a comparison in real life between groups within one biological species that have phenotypical differences. In the real world for sapient species we call these things "ethnic groups." It's inherently contradictory to believe that in D&D's default setting it makes sense for "races" to have uniform and meaningful differences but that in the real world "races" do not. Basically, you can believe it's appropriate for elves to get a bonus to dexterity or that it's not appropriate to think of Jewish people* as being good with money, but not both. Not saying that every beer-and-pretzels dungeon delve needs to have a critical understanding of the racial implications in the game mechanics but uh, they're absolutely there. *I wasn't sure what example to use that would be clear and wouldn't be hurtfully reinforcing "positive" stereotypes and decided to use one relevant to my own ethnic background, I hope that's alright with people reading this. Happy to edit it into something more abstract if it's not, please speak up.
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Feb 4, 2021 08:21
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I mean, there are observable differences in humans. High altitude adaptation for example. In D&D that would be expressed as a constitution bonus.
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Feb 4, 2021 12:52
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You know. This argument isn’t worth having!
CottonWolf fucked around with this message at 13:13 on Feb 4, 2021 |
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Feb 4, 2021 13:11
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TheCenturion posted:I mean, there are observable differences in humans. High altitude adaptation for example. In D&D that would be expressed as a constitution bonus. No, that would be expressed as a situational fortitude save bonus, not as a con bonus. If you're going to go down this weird and deeply unfortunate road, at least get your poo poo right rather than trying to backtrack from a 'racial stat bonuses are correct, actually' position.
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Feb 4, 2021 14:26
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I don't think the thread needs a serious deep-dive about the validity of race essentialism, so no more of that please. Anything new and cool about Scion's Kickstarter? What's upcoming for CoD?
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Feb 4, 2021 14:44
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You're absolutely right, not an argument worth having, and probably not the forum for it, either. Anywho, I finished reading Deviant, and I dunno, I feel like it tries too hard to be so generic that you can have RoboCop, Nightcrawler and Jesse from Control all in a party, but that it has no cohesion. I felt like they tried too hard to force that cohesion with language. They go so far into inventing their own lexicon that it just seems forced and out of place. The Web of Pain mechanic also feels bolted on strictly to weld together the disparate genres. Still, neat concepts. TheCenturion fucked around with this message at 14:55 on Feb 4, 2021 |
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Feb 4, 2021 14:46
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That Old Tree posted:Anything new and cool about Scion's Kickstarter? What's upcoming for CoD? Overall even if I only end up using like 10% of the material across these two books, I'd consider my backing at both-book-PDF levels to have been way more than worth it, which to me feels like it's just keeping in line with the quality of everything else Scion 2e so far.
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Feb 4, 2021 14:54
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