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I thought the one who left the convocation in protest was Venat but tbh i have no idea who Venat is, i just remember the name
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Jan 28, 2021 18:23
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There was a splinter faction who opposed the second summoning of Zodiark which would have killed basically everyone non-ancient to bring back all the ancients killed to summon him the first time. That group was headed (we assume) by Venat, and they sacrificed a bunch of themselves to make her show up and dropkick him so the original batch couldn't ever summon him again. Azem apparently didn't like the first Zodi summon or the summon of Hydie to begin with because they didn't like the idea of sacrificing a whole bunch of people for any reason.
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Jan 28, 2021 18:32
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juggalo baby coffin posted:i thought it was kind of like they brought zodiark into being, he did the thing to fix the world, then went dormant kind of like hydaelyn is most of the time, just kind of being the embodiment of the star. Yeah. Zodiark just kinda went dormant. But not gone or unsummoned. Hydaelyn drop kicked him right out of the planet. Zodiark and Hydaelyn are both primals, but made from the huge reservoirs of aether that the ancients possessed. The primals that the beast tribes summon are amateur in comparison, and require outside aether to sustain themselves. Azem left the convocation long before Hydaelyn was summoned, so there's no way they'd be tempered. Azem's usual play and mode of operation was to find a bunch of badasses and solve the problem themselves. They didn't want to rely on reality altering gods to do the work for them. HenryEx posted:I thought the one who left the convocation in protest was Venat Venant is Hydaelyn's heart, and was never part of the convocation.
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Jan 28, 2021 18:33
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:Azem left the convocation long before Hydaelyn was summoned, so there's no way they'd be tempered. Azem's usual play and mode of operation was to find a bunch of badasses and solve the problem themselves. They didn't want to rely on reality altering gods to do the work for them. i know azem was anti-hydaelyn, but their incarnation as the warrior of light seems pretty tempered by hydaelyn. we found out that tempering is your aether being aligned to that of the primal, and towards the umbral. when yshtola talks about the WoL's aether she describes it as radiant, which would seem to imply being aspected towards light. hydaelyn's 'blessing' also lets you resist the lightwarden transformation, possibly because you are already tempered in a different way. bizarrely, light is an umbral element (i think it might be a translation thing, umbral = stagnant and astral = dynamic). i dunno how much the warrior of light's aether has been pushed towards the umbral, because being umbrally charged makes you basically an empty vessel for the primal's will, or as with the light corrupted in the first, just an empty vessel.
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Jan 28, 2021 18:49
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The radiant aether was because they were juiced up in Lightwarden aether. That's not the WoL's normal look. Tempering doesn't require an umbral polarity, just an overall balance towards whatever the primal is. There's nothing umbral about the Ascians, nor was there anything umbral about any of Bahamut's tempered. We haven't seen an actual umbral polarized primal doing their work, so we don't have a comparison on that end. The Astral/Umbral dissociation from English was a conscious choice by the developers. Umbral has always been stagnant (Umbral Ice buff) and associated with white magic (Holy stun). Urianger made a big deal about it when he explained it in Shadowbringers as well. And there's nothing suggesting the WoL is tempered. Orcs and Ostriches fucked around with this message at 19:00 on Jan 28, 2021 |
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Jan 28, 2021 18:57
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juggalo baby coffin posted:i dunno how hydaelyn ended up being the spirit of the star instead, did she punch zodiark straight out of the world and into space? It's extremely likely that Hydaelyn's metaphysical sundering of reality was also accompanied by her physically sundering zodiark from the planet and creating the moon.
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Jan 28, 2021 19:10
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juggalo baby coffin posted:i thought azem was part of the first summoning but opposed the second, unless i'm misremembering My understanding was that Azem was always a no show to convocation meetings cause they were off in the world making friends and tryin to find their own solutions. hazardousmouse fucked around with this message at 19:16 on Jan 28, 2021 |
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Jan 28, 2021 19:11
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:The radiant aether was because they were juiced up in Lightwarden aether. That's not the WoL's normal look. she says 'you must have noticed it was different to his usual radiance' to urianger i just did part of the 5.4 questline where you get a little powerpoint presentation on tempering, and the umbral shift is definitely part of it. that's what suppresses the person's original will. hydaelyn is a primal, and we have her blessing. whenever any other primal has talked about 'receiving their blessing' it always means tempering. i know that in lore it makes sense that light is umbral, but since umbral means 'shadowy' it's weird to have light be umbral, and darkness be astral (aka 'starry') edit: Here's the cutscene that talks about the umbral shift
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Jan 28, 2021 19:18
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All Hydaelyn's "tempering" seems to do is to give someone power over light-aligned/stability-aligned aether and make them immune to other tempering. She's explicitly telling you to be your own person as her only binding command.
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Jan 28, 2021 19:24
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Unless Hydaelyn is capable of tempering people on top of the Echo, she can't have tempered the WoL, because we have the Echo. You have to have the Echo to hear her in the first place. plot twist: Zodiark traps the WoL in their own head with constant visions and the only way to free them is to use untempering to strip them of the Echo Orcs and Ostriches posted:We haven't seen an actual umbral polarized primal doing their work, so we don't have a comparison on that end. I was thinking about this, how do the primals most likely to use tempering offensively match with the Astral/Umbral dichotomy? We have Ifrit, Leviathan, Titan, Bahamut, and Lakshmi who do it aggressively, Ramuh who does it but tries not to, and Garuda, Shiva, Ravana (might be misremembering?), Bismarck, Susano, and Shinryu who don't.
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Jan 28, 2021 19:29
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:The Astral/Umbral dissociation from English was a conscious choice by the developers. Umbral has always been stagnant (Umbral Ice buff) and associated with white magic (Holy stun). Urianger made a big deal about it when he explained it in Shadowbringers as well. umbral being stagnant and astral being active is only how it's been known on the First - on Eorzea, prior to ShB, umbral meant chaos, and astral meant order. see: Umbral Calamities (chaotic disaster) and Astral Eras (peace and prosperity) that follow them. Urianger mentions in ShB that they might've had it backwards the whole time.
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Jan 28, 2021 19:32
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Chillgamesh posted:I was thinking about this, how do the primals most likely to use tempering offensively match with the Astral/Umbral dichotomy? We have Ifrit, Leviathan, Titan, Bahamut, and Lakshmi who do it aggressively, Ramuh who does it but tries not to, and Garuda, Shiva, Ravana (might be misremembering?), Bismarck, Susano, and Shinryu who don't. All the latter ones do as well. It's just they're not around or close enough to do it. Ramuh's claim is that their existence alone is enough to slowly temper those around them. We dunk on them too fast, or they're not around their summoners enough for it to completely take hold. I don't think there's much in the way of Astral/Umbral for how aggressively they temper. We've only dealt with Bahamut as an Astral entity, and he did aggressively. Thordan was the only definitively umbral primal we've crossed, and that didn't work out well for him. I'd assume he'd be just as aggressive, being god king of Ishgard and all that. Orcs and Ostriches fucked around with this message at 19:36 on Jan 28, 2021 |
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Jan 28, 2021 19:33
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Chillgamesh posted:Unless Hydaelyn is capable of tempering people on top of the Echo, she can't have tempered the WoL, because we have the Echo. You have to have the Echo to hear her in the first place. ravana tempered the hivemind, but the focus for his summoning seems to have been 'expand the hive' so he seems less focused on bringing in other species and more focused on imperial expansion. shinryu doesn't really get a chance to do any tempering, he's trapped in a bubble then fighting a robot then trapped in a bubble then being used as a mecha.
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Jan 28, 2021 19:35
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:All the latter ones do as well. It's just they're not around or close enough to do it. Ramuh's claim is that their existence alone is enough to slowly temper those around them. We dunk on them too fast, or they're not around their summoners enough for it to completely take hold. Yeah I’m not saying they’re incapable of tempering, just that they’re not making it a priority. Shiva in particular had ample opportunity to temper the rebels under her command, even involuntarily, but didn’t Orcs and Ostriches posted:I don't think there's much in the way of Astral/Umbral for how aggressively they temper. We've only dealt with Bahamut as an Astral entity, and he did aggressively. Yeah I forgot Thordan was a primal entirely. Another fun theory shot down 
Chillgamesh fucked around with this message at 19:46 on Jan 28, 2021 |
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Jan 28, 2021 19:37
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Shiva is kind of a special case though because she's directly controlled by a very strong-willed person. when Ryne becomes shiva 2.0 she immediately goes nuts, and if not for the fact that everyone present (the WoL and Gaia) had the echo, probably would have tempered some fools.
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Jan 28, 2021 19:39
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Gruckles posted:It's extremely likely that Hydaelyn's metaphysical sundering of reality was also accompanied by her physically sundering zodiark from the planet and creating the moon. I'm pretty sure the sundering wasn't just metaphysical and all the other worlds are floating out there in space. The big circle diagram is just real Of course, space in the Final Fantasy universe has always had a bunch of crystals and poo poo floating around in it. that's consistent
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Jan 28, 2021 19:50
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Ysale only goes into Shiva form rarely and for a short amount of time. If Shiva was a standard primal that just spent some time existing then she probably would have tempered her followers.
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Jan 28, 2021 19:51
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They're all zealots anyways. Some of them probably were tempered.
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Jan 28, 2021 19:52
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WrightOfWay posted:Ysale only goes into Shiva form rarely and for a short amount of time. If Shiva was a standard primal that just spent some time existing then she probably would have tempered her followers. Lakshmi, Ifrit, and Titan temper the vulnerable almost instantly Orcs and Ostriches posted:They're all zealots anyways. Some of them probably were tempered. Given what happened to Ga Bu, the idea of this is actually grim as gently caress. Some poor dirt farmer gets drafted into the Ishgardian army to go fight the Dravanians, deserts to join Lady Iceheart, never gets to partake of Dragon's Blood but is tempered by Shiva, goes catatonic when Ysayle is killed and the link is severed, and freezes to death along with his buddies in some forgotten snowbank in Coerthas.
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Jan 28, 2021 19:56
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Chillgamesh posted:Lakshmi, Ifrit, and Titan temper the vulnerable almost instantly That's something the primal has to actively try to do. When Ysale transformed into Shiva on the airship at the end of HW, she didn't instantly temper Estinien or Cid, who were in close proximity. I guess it's possible that she tempered some of her followers but that really doesn't seem like something she would do intentionally.
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Jan 28, 2021 20:50
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Jetrauben posted:All Hydaelyn's "tempering" seems to do is to give someone power over light-aligned/stability-aligned aether and make them immune to other tempering. She's explicitly telling you to be your own person as her only binding command. it's the echo that lets people resist tempering, Hydaelin just tricks people into thinking she's the one who grants the echo because she's blasting her Greatest Hits album on all frequencies 24/7, so it's the first thing fresh new echo users hear and assume it's related to her. don't even need any blessings of light for that, an artificial echo let Zenos effectively reverse-temper Shinryu without help from Hydaelin the idea that Hydaelin used her special free-will-stealing powers to actually give you double free will was always a bit silly
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Jan 28, 2021 22:14
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Chillgamesh posted:Doesn't Azem specifically withdraw from the Convocation because they oppose the summoning? Also, now that I think about it, while the FF12 reference is obvious with Elidibus summoning Zodiark and Venat as the protector of mortals, mechanically those summoning processes are a lot closer to FFX and the fayth being created to summon Sin The end of the Summoner Stormblood class quests make this clear. The level 70 fight is against a guy who's basically gone full Yu Yevon.
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Jan 28, 2021 22:50
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:They're all zealots anyways. Some of them probably were tempered. They weren't, though. The Ishgard Restoration proves this, where we get remnants of Iceheart's zealots and he literally outright says 'we're cool and we're sorry, we were caught up in things'. There's no proof of tempered Iceheart zealots, and no way they could have happened since Ysayle was so sparing with her primal-channelling. Ysayle got followers through good old, human, radical extremism. Which WAS good, because that was way more fixable, but now that we've suddenly got perfect magical tempering cures it suddenly ranks as way harder to solve. Cleretic fucked around with this message at 00:12 on Jan 29, 2021 |
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Jan 29, 2021 00:08
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a cartoon duck posted:it's the echo that lets people resist tempering, Hydaelin just tricks people into thinking she's the one who grants the echo because she's blasting her Greatest Hits album on all frequencies 24/7, so it's the first thing fresh new echo users hear and assume it's related to her. don't even need any blessings of light for that, an artificial echo let Zenos effectively reverse-temper Shinryu without help from Hydaelin I'm not actually sure that the Echo is ever directly associated with Hydaelyn. She never claims it's her gift; mortals just assume it is. It's the Blessing of Light that G'raha wants that both you and to a lesser extent Ryne have, and the Blessing is very distinct from the Echo itself. You get the Blessing sucked out of you or turned off by Midgardsormr, who is an aetherial being of such power he's arguably an eikon himself, before it's turned back on. Huh. That's kinda funny, actually. If the Blessing is tempering, then there was a cure for tempering demonstrated far earlier and we just never realized it because we assumed the Blessing was very different from other forms of primal influence. In any case, Zodiark and Hydaelyn can influence people with the Echo. They did so with the Ascians, after all!
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Jan 29, 2021 00:09
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Jetrauben posted:I'm not actually sure that the Echo is ever directly associated with Hydaelyn. She never claims it's her gift; mortals just assume it is. It's the Blessing of Light that G'raha wants that both you and to a lesser extent Ryne have, and the Blessing is very distinct from the Echo itself. You get the Blessing sucked out of you or turned off by Midgardsormr, who is an aetherial being of such power he's arguably an eikon himself, before it's turned back on. I wonder if the tempered get those cool coloured crystals too. They need to bring that back!
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Jan 29, 2021 00:17
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You can be tempered and lucid, like Emet was. Relatively. He straight-up says "yeah I'm tempered", doesn't he? Unless we get to ME3 levels of indoctrination retconning, I think we're tempered and lucid, too.
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Jan 29, 2021 00:32
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it's possible that the umbral charging that makes people mindless with tempering is a product of the corrupted summoning rituals the ascians hand out although if the original convocation did become tempered by their summoning (minus azem ofc) it would explain why the ascians are all dark aligned. it would also call into question whether they planned the second sacrifice to zodiark of their own free will, or if it was influenced by zodiark and then justified as something to bring back the initial sacrifices emet did seem like a suicide-by-cop though. from everything he said he'd lived a ton of mortal lives post-sundering, and had families and loved ones and everything. he had the classic 'being immortal while everyone else isn't' problem. it also seemed like he was realising that the lives of the sundered were just as meaningful as the lives of the ancients, but couldn't admit to it because of what that would have meant for his successful rejoinings. but through shadowbringers he basically guides us along the route to get everything we'd need to kill him in the end. once we'd killed lahabrea, emet was the last real unsundered left. elidibus was an amnesiac primal pretending to be unsundered. he couldn't even remember amaurot or who he was performing the rejoinings for. I dunno if emet would want to spend eternity with that guy, and his desire to keep going with the plan was flagging anyway. once you're the last guy who remembers a place, is it even worth bringing it back? if the tempering meant he couldn't give up of his own volition, he had to use us to stop himself, while saying the exact things along the way that would make us committed to stopping him.
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Jan 29, 2021 01:23
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could just be sunk cost fallacy or him just bsing because it makes it easier to dehumanize him with a group that already hates and opposes him all the while he gets to tell half-truths and hint at things we have no clue about because he's a smughole. Shiva is unlikely to have tempered anyone because Ysayle used it sparingly and not anywhere with a lot of people.
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Jan 29, 2021 01:39
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Lahabrea was also kind of broken, just in a different way. Emet was still pretty sane since he would take centuries or millennia at a time to just go to sleep in the Void, but Lahabrea never stopped. He just kept loving up and failing over and over again, and eventually came completely unhinged after eons of failure. I think Emet really did intend to win and wasn't just committing an extremely elaborate suicide - it's just that unlike Lahabrea and Elidibus, he was capable of considering the possibility that maybe, just maybe, those loving poo poo-covered apes might win, and that he should have a few contingencies in place in case it turns out he was wrong about their supposed inferiority.
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Jan 29, 2021 01:44
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The importance of a good night's sleep
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Jan 29, 2021 02:20
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I've kinda been wondering if Emet mentioning he is tempered, yet still seems to be in full control of his actions was meant to be seen as a hint that people can be tempered in a way that does not turn them full-on zealot. And the talk of how tempering involves aligning someone's personal aether closer to the primal made me come up with my own, probably entirely wrong theory: Since the two kinda have been the two big, special primals that were made by the ancients and their proper summoning and creation magics compared to the ones that got taught on the source to create the usual type of primals we know, what if their tempering also doesn't work quite the same way than compared to like Titan or ifrit? Emet-Selch mentions being tempered, is probably dark-aligned soul wise due to mentioning how the light on the First is a bother to him yet he seems fully aware of what he is doing and his motivations for doing what he does seem entirely personal rather than "Zodiark wants me to free him". So we can assume that he and probably the other ascians rather go through a process where they gain an affinity for darkness-aether in their soul and some kind of bond with Zodiark but are still their own persons. Then we go to the Warrior of Light. We probably are not being mind-controlled, however our soul definitly has some light-alignment going on. Being able to scoop up the Lightwardens aether was something we specifically had to be summoned for due to our soul being special. Also, one small scene that shows this more is that in Rakt'ika, when using the water that is said to be dark-aligned before that one ritual, it mentions that it feels weird whereas most of your companions don't seem to notice anything, suggesting there is some reaction. The only other one who mentions that is Ryne, who also has the same thing going on of being special due to her and any previous Minfilia-reincarnations being unable to get turned by a Sin Eater. And said specialness is probably related due to being a direct reincarnation of Minfilia, who before had been directly bound to Hydaelyn. The fact that Ryne probably has some special soul stuff going on while also being her own person (a fact that is kind of a big deal of her character arc) means that there is something with her souls alignment, but it does not end up with her controlled. And last but not least, we have in the past been in direct correspondence with Hydaelyn and been given power from her to kick Lahabreas/Ultimas rear end, so there is a very direct connection that so far not many other characters had. So, putting all that poo poo together, my theory is that with these elder primals, their "tempering" is more of a type of bonding where your soul gets put on the same wavelength as them, allowing them to give you boons and talking with you as necessary while not directly influencing your thoughts. And presumably the ascian-taught method of summoning used for any other primal we met so far has been made so that said bonding ends up overpowering for the soul of whoever gets tempered, making them lose their individuality and having their mind be overtaken by the primal, whether the primal wants to or not I am sure I got it horribly wrong somewhere, but from what I understand of all these parts, this is the best theory I can cobble together. Also, I love the idea of the age-old "Is the WoL tempered???" debate to be "Yeah, but not in a bad way so no worries" 
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Jan 29, 2021 06:36
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I think a lot of it has to do with the template that the summoners use. Consider: The Sahagin. Their whole thing is to expand their breeding grounds and what have you. When they summon Leviathan, it's for the purpose of expanding their territories. So when they temper people, they become enslaved to the idea of helping the Sahagin expand their reach. The Amaalja are in a similar boat. They're a conqueror culture and worship him Ifrit as their war god. As such, when they summon Ifrit, his main goal is to enslave others to serve him. When the Ascians summoned Big Z, their template was "Oh gently caress, reality is coming to a screeching halt, we need to save our world and our people." So, when they got Tempered, they were more or less told to do the thing they were already planning on doing anyways - Try to save their poo poo. Plus, the Ascians had a better instruction manual for summoning. They probably tweaked/watered down the ritual that they gave the Beast Tribes specifically in order to make them a lot more Temper happy in order to stir the pot.
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Jan 29, 2021 19:16
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I still really hope no one is tempered by the big two; it just poisons the plots of the ascians and the WoL in a really bad way. Just everyone is way less interesting if it's because two gods decreed they must act this way.
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Jan 29, 2021 21:17
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Emet-Selch stated that they are tempered by Zodiark and he never knowingly lies to us. He could be mistaken, certainly, but he absolutely believes that they are all tempered.
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Jan 29, 2021 21:37
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Some of the convocation star stones talk about the sensation they feel about their soul being overpowered, or invaded, or something to that effect. I was against the tempering theory for a long time, but that was kinda a nail in the coffin. I just personally find Emet-Selch's character and arc so much more fulfilling when it's his own motivations and weaknesses at play, and not an unsurmountable urge from a supernatural being.
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Jan 29, 2021 21:41
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But isn't Zodiark singularly driven by wish of the Amaurotines to survive? So being tempered by Zodiark would just mean you're determined to save the old world at any cost.
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Jan 29, 2021 21:46
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Yeah, and that's an extremely boring motivation.
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Jan 29, 2021 22:00
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i dunno, i think them being tempered adds an extra layer of tragedy to their story, and an extra level of cunning to emet selch. they were all good people, just trying to save their world. like ardbert said 'we did everything right'. for most of FFXIV the ascians were almost just straight up generic demon guys, who wanted to revive their evil god for nefarious reasons. finding out that they're people who basically pulled the same trick louisoix did (a massive summoning to prevent a cataclysm), and having that heroism and sacrifice turned evil by them being bound to basically a salvation elemental committed to not just saving their world, but restoring it to EXACTLY the way it was before the final days, is a pretty neat narrative. they found a way to make 'wanting to save the world' into an evil drive, which is impressive. and the emet-selch, despite being nailed to this cause, and basically at the same time realising the evil of what he's doing but not being able to openly admit to it, finds a way to stop himself and free himself from the tempering (ie death). then he comes back from the lifestream and helps us mercy-kill elidibus, his last and most long suffering ally. emet is basically like ardbert was when we first met him, committed to doing something evil to save his world, after having given up everything. it's also interesting that in-lore, the ancients referred to the lifestream as 'the underworld', and emet-selchs real name of hades was given to him due to his mastery over things relating to the lifestream.
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Jan 29, 2021 22:07
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Eh, I think being mind controlled is far less tragic than a broken man with noble intentions unable to give up his past, fruitlessly throwing away everything he could have for a long shot at restoring a lost world. Tempering on not, his goals and methodology wouldn't change. He also didn't 3d chess anyone into freeing his mind. He was bored and interested in what was happening on the first. He thought we might make a capable ally, or at least something approaching an equal to amuse him. Maybe deep down there was something about Azem's legacy that he couldn't consciously recognize. When that didn't pan out, he tried to kill us, and we killed him.
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Jan 29, 2021 22:14
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Even still it was their own motivation in the first place that caused them to summon Zofiark, so whatever influence the Primal has is just another part of a flat circle.
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Jan 29, 2021 22:55
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