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Eh, the thing is, on a combustion engine with a transmission the PRND12 stick is actually physically moving things to shift modes in the transmission. In an electric car it's just a silly looking button, picking things in software. Neutral and Park aren't even real things in an electric motor and drive and reverse are electric modes you are selecting. None of them directly mean anything the way shifting a transmission means. They are just modes. Like the auto reverse thing is a little silly and a gimmick and I'm sure it boils down to just having it start in reverse if you are against a wall. But the general idea of getting rid of the stick isn't silly. In a combustion engine it's a stick because you are physically yanking around parts of the transmission to change how it connects between the engine and the wheels. It's nothing in an electric car. it could be a button, or a little wheel you spin, or a menu option or whatever. As combustion engines go to shift by wire they are dropping the stick too, there is just no reason to have one in an electric car.
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Jan 30, 2021 18:49
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aware of dog posted:As a side note, that rectangular, Knight Rider-rear end steering wheel looks like a pain in the rear end to use It's hilarious how Musk is trying to literally reinvent the wheel when there's a pretty good reason it's more or less been the same for over a century.
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Jan 30, 2021 18:57
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Eh, the thing is, on a combustion engine with a transmission the PRND12 stick is actually physically moving things to shift modes in the transmission. Yeah, the problem isn't so much getting rid of a physical mechanical selector lever. Loads of cars with auto transmission have had buttons for PRND, right back to the 50s. These days on loads of auto cars that still have a lever it's actually just an electrical selector switch sized and weighted to feel like a lever because that's what everyone's used to and a chunky lever with a satisfying clunk-clink gives a feel of quality that lots of people don't associate with a plain dash-mounted button. The VW ID3 has a stubby little twist-stalk on the side of the display binnacle. The Jaguar iPace has three buttons on the centre console. The Nissan Leaf has a strange rollerball type thing where the gear stick would usually be. The problem is the preposterous idea of Tesla's AI being able to intuit the driver's intentions when it has already proved to be staggeringly inept at times. And the back up being via either inductive buttons or the touch screen, which have all sorts of safety/ergonomic issues in general and reliability issues on Teslas specifically.
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Jan 30, 2021 19:07
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Neutral and Park aren't even real things in an electric motor and drive and reverse are electric modes you are selecting. None of them directly mean anything the way shifting a transmission means. They are just modes. “They’re just modes! This entire plane flies by wire!” I insist as I drop my Airbus and its passengers into the sea.
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Jan 30, 2021 19:12
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“Hey Siri, put it in reverse.” “Hey Siri put it in park.”
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Jan 30, 2021 19:21
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withak posted:“Hey Siri, put it in reverse.” Ok, playing One Step Closer by Linkin Park
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Jan 30, 2021 19:31
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BalloonFish posted:Yeah, the problem isn't so much getting rid of a physical mechanical selector lever. Loads of cars with auto transmission have had buttons for PRND, right back to the 50s. These days on loads of auto cars that still have a lever it's actually just an electrical selector switch sized and weighted to feel like a lever because that's what everyone's used to and a chunky lever with a satisfying clunk-clink gives a feel of quality that lots of people don't associate with a plain dash-mounted button. The bigger problem is eschewing established conventions for a marginal improvement in quality of life within a system where making the wrong action by accident literally leads to your car going the opposite way you were expecting. It would be a different matter if there were some serious issues with the PRND system that auto makers were too skittish to tackle. That's where disruption actually works. What Musk is doing is just leveraging Tesla's popularity to ram through risky marginal QoL stuff, which is irresponsible.
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Jan 30, 2021 19:34
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Does this mean electric cars don't creep forward when put into drive?
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Jan 30, 2021 19:42
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HootTheOwl posted:Does this mean electric cars don't creep forward when put into drive? Some do, some don’t, and some put it to user preference.
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Jan 30, 2021 19:44
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It's the same toggle as the fake engine rev
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Jan 30, 2021 19:45
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If there's no difference between park and neutral how do I go through a car wash, or do they not Wash Tesla's because they're not rainproof either?
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Jan 30, 2021 19:45
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HootTheOwl posted:Does this mean electric cars don't creep forward when put into drive? I'm not sure about Teslas, but every EV I've driven maintains that same expected behavior unless you explicitly put them in an alternate, non-default mode. To be clear, they don't HAVE to, but they do for the sake of convention.
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Jan 30, 2021 19:45
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Aramis posted:The bigger problem is eschewing established conventions for a marginal improvement in quality of life within a system where making the wrong action by accident literally leads to your car going the opposite way you were expecting. Yes. Platystemon was right with the Airbus comparison - before the display/interface issues and training deficiencies had been fixed some of the most common last words on the CVRs of Airbuses involves in accidents were along the lines of 'What's it doing now?' because the flight control system had gone into some alternative mode or was carrying out some pre-programmed procedure based on what it thought the pilot was doing, without the flight crew being aware of the change, how the system decides what mode to be in and what each mode means for how the aircraft behaved.
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Jan 30, 2021 19:55
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BalloonFish posted:Yeah, the problem isn't so much getting rid of a physical mechanical selector lever. Loads of cars with auto transmission have had buttons for PRND, right back to the 50s. These days on loads of auto cars that still have a lever it's actually just an electrical selector switch sized and weighted to feel like a lever because that's what everyone's used to and a chunky lever with a satisfying clunk-clink gives a feel of quality that lots of people don't associate with a plain dash-mounted button. It's more than just the selector though. On an electric car none of those selections really inherently mean anything the way they do on a transmission. Call it AI or not but all of those modes just end up being some if/then statements in a computer trying to do what the designer thinks you meant to do. an electric engine can go forward or backwards but isn't really put "into reverse" but at least on that it's pretty unambiguous what R means. For park and neutral it doesn't translate to anything direct at all, and is just arbitrary lists of things to happen and not happen on various controls. The reverse if you start against a wall thing is a minor gimmick, the gear shifter just doesn't make a lot of sense on an electric car. Like even on a three point turn why go through neutral over and over, it's not doing anything to do that, just go forward and reverse, or just do a three point turn as one thing instead of a series of mode changes. It's fine. If electric cars were common first we wouldn't need to copy all their quirks onto a shift to combustion engines. It's not some crazy AI robot, it's just letting an electric motor work the way one works and dropping the idea it's a combustion engine and needs to do only things they did and only the exact same way.
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Jan 30, 2021 20:30
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:It's more than just the selector though. The issue has absolutely nothing to do with the irrelevant technical details you're discussing. Nobody in this case is upset that there's no neutral in between forward and reverse, it's entirely about whether or not the driver has control over whether the vehicle is moving forward or backwards. You aren't sharing some great insight about the mechanicals of an electric motor. It is absolutely as important for the driver of an electric car to be able to determine direction of motion as it is for the driver of a gasoline powered car.
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Jan 30, 2021 20:45
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“Neutral” means “don’t put any power out but prepare to be acted upon by external forces”. You know, for towing. “Park” means “engage the parking pawl”. These have meanings in electric cars because they are useful things to do. “A marine diesel can go forwards or backwards but isn’t really put ‘into reverse’ ”, I continue to insist, as the ship collides with an iceberg.
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Jan 30, 2021 20:55
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Platystemon posted:“Neutral” means “don’t put any power out but prepare to be acted upon by external forces”. You know, for towing. Yeah, sounds like you have some ideas for what an AI (some if/then statements) should do in those modes.
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Jan 30, 2021 21:06
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The thing the AI should not do is guess at which mode it should be in. How is this confusing you?
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Jan 30, 2021 21:12
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BalloonFish posted:The Nissan Leaf has a strange rollerball type thing where the gear stick would usually be. Which honestly kind of sucks. There's no positive engagement to tell me when I've triggered the change. Once I hit the park button, but not quite enough to get it to stop reversing. Barely managed to catch it before it reversed into another car. Yeah, I should have looked for the light on the dashboard, but everyone's gonna be dumb sometimes and this isn't a problem I would ever have had with a more normal "gear lever". Levers are good because of the tactile feedback. You know exactly when it's engaged in one mode, and can tell by feel what you're in. Same thing with a turn signal: you know exactly when you've turned on your signal, even if you aren't looking at the dashboard or you've got loud music playing. Even physical buttons don't do that.
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Jan 30, 2021 21:16
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Irony.or.Death posted:The thing the AI should not do is guess at which mode it should be in. How is this confusing you? Is there any indication it's actually doing anything but a very very minor feature where it starts in reverse if it's up against a wall? Then putting the shift as a digital function. I feel like people are going into some weird fantasy where it's wildly shifting you at random or something. This seems absurdly mundane and a natural outgrowth of having an electric motor that doesn't follow the rules a transmission has.
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Jan 30, 2021 21:21
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Irony.or.Death posted:The thing the AI should not do is guess at which mode it should be in. How is this confusing you? Look who you're responding to. This person is continuously either legitimately confused or willfully ignorant in this and other threads.
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Jan 30, 2021 21:30
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It's like fishmech never left! (And by left I mean, was perma'd)
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Jan 30, 2021 21:30
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Is there any indication it's actually doing anything but a very very minor feature where it starts in reverse if it's up against a wall? Then putting the shift as a digital function. I suppose that depends on how you read Musk and the internal documents referenced in that story. If you take "for example" to mean "this is the entirety of the feature", and "override" to mean "expected normal operation" then your stance seems fair. I freely admit I am not an expert Musk-whisperer. e: let he who does not miss fishmech cast the first stone
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Jan 30, 2021 21:31
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Karia posted:Which honestly kind of sucks. There's no positive engagement to tell me when I've triggered the change.  I've driven Leafs a few times and I'm not a fan of the selector either (good EVs otherwise, though). The range of movement is too small and, as you say, no real 'notches' between the positions. My favourite drive selector of the EVs I've driven is the BMW i3's, which is a paddle behind the steering wheel which falls to your right hand, which you rock back and forth (with a nicely damped 'click') to cycle through R, N and D and then a separate button next to it that puts it into Park. So it's simple and quick to change modes when manoeuvring but you're not going to stick it in the wrong mode by accident, and there's no risk of it not being Park while you think it actually is, and you can't knock it out of Park while doing something else.
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Jan 30, 2021 21:35
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Goddamnit stop replying to Owlofcreamcheese.
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Jan 30, 2021 21:37
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:It's more than just the selector though. What you're saying is irrelevant. In a modern ICE engine's automatic transmission the selector isn't connected to anything but the transmission computer, either. Plenty of cars have different drive mode selectors, including console buttons, dials, and weird little stalks that are more like turn signals than the traditional PRNDL lever. None of them try to automatically guess whether you want to go forward or backward when you hit the accelerator pedal, because that is an incredibly stupid, unsafe, and idiotic thing to do.
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Jan 30, 2021 21:43
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The AI is this monkey: This is actually far more sane that what Musk has proposed because Jack listened and responded to whistle commands. He didn’t guess where the trains were supposed to go this time.
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Jan 30, 2021 21:49
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holy poo poo he actually has 2 peg legs that is awesome. Also a dick move that they kept calling him Jumper after he lost both his feet in a rail car jumping accident.
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Jan 30, 2021 22:03
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Space Gopher posted:What you're saying is irrelevant. Get in any modern car and start driving forward, then slam in reverse and watch the car ignore it or go into neutral as the evil AI in the car ignores your direct commands and does what the designer thought you'd really want to happen happen instead of what you commanded. This reverse thing seems like an extremely mild feature that makes perfect sense getting spun into some weird thing where a computer is just going to randomly fling you around. If you turn your car on and put it into forward against a wall it already might not do it for you if you have a modern car with automatic collision braking.
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Jan 30, 2021 22:07
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Get in any modern car and start driving forward, then slam in reverse and watch the car ignore it or go into neutral as the evil AI in the car ignores your direct commands and does what the designer thought you'd really want to happen happen instead of what you commanded. This isn't true in the overwhelming majority of vehicles AND it's not an AI where it actually does happen. Owlofcreamcheese posted:This reverse thing seems like an extremely mild feature This is one of the many places in which you are completely and totally wrong. How can you be so wrong about so many things? Do you have to practice to be this wrong all the time? Owlofcreamcheese posted:If you turn your car on and put it into forward against a wall it already might not do it for you if you have a modern car with automatic collision braking. Three things to be wrong about in a singe post. Good job. This is not how "modern car(s) with collision braking" work.
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Jan 30, 2021 22:11
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Motronic posted:This isn't true in the overwhelming majority of vehicles AND it's not an AI where it actually does happen. I don't think any car in like 40 years lets you go from drive to reverse in motion, in older cars it's a mechanical stop, in shift by wire cars it's just ignoring it in software. You can say that isn't AI, but this reverse thing won't be "AI" either.
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Jan 30, 2021 22:29
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Cars should be controlled Pacific Rim style with four passengers required. Each one controls the torque for one wheel with a neural link.
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Jan 30, 2021 22:49
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:I don't think any car in like 40 years lets you go from drive to reverse in motion That's because you don't know anything about this subject.
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Jan 30, 2021 22:58
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:I don't think any car in like 40 years lets you go from drive to reverse in motion, in older cars it's a mechanical stop, in shift by wire cars it's just ignoring it in software. You can say that isn't AI, but this reverse thing won't be "AI" either. We're getting into a whole other matter here, which is the all-too-common disconnect between Musk's announcments and reality. Elon Musk posted:“Car guesses drive direction based on what obstacles it sees, context & nav map,” Sounds like he's talking about it being integrated into the self-driving system, so you get into your car, power it up, set the navigation and it knows that you want to go in such-and-such a direction and that there's open road ahead of it but a garage door behind it, so it selects Drive.
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Jan 30, 2021 22:59
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Seriously. How would this car tell the difference between a carwash and a parking spot?
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Jan 31, 2021 05:32
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You just have to go to the central console, hit system settings, configuration, advanced, developer options, confirm the liability release and warranty void, scroll down and enable the Three Laws setting and you're good to go!
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Jan 31, 2021 06:10
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HootTheOwl posted:Seriously. How would this car tell the difference between a carwash and a parking spot? When you think about it, what's the easy visual difference between parking behind another vehicle and stopping for a red light? Especially if it's a long stop that people put their cars in park for to take their foot off the brake?
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Jan 31, 2021 06:32
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Complications posted:When you think about it, what's the visual difference between parking behind another vehicle and stopping for a red light? It's really easy to figure this out if you just feed the AI a suitable training set; think captchas where you have to click on all of the squares where it looks like the car should reverse or accelerate.
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Jan 31, 2021 06:34
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eXXon posted:It's really easy to figure this out if you just feed the AI a suitable training set; think captchas where you have to click on all of the squares where it looks like the car should reverse or accelerate. I've been wondering about this. Do American cars not have handbrakes/park brakes? I always see drivers in movies, etc. just put the transmission into park and get out -- you can see the car rocking back and forth as they get out. Everyone I've ever known or seen with an automatic parks by putting the shifter into park and then engaging the handbrake. Why put that stress on the transmission when the brake is designed to do that exact job?
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Jan 31, 2021 07:04
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sounds like it would make parallel parking impossible
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Jan 31, 2021 07:05
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