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Vagabundo posted:It's also indicative of WCW's worst booking instincts - if fans get behind someone other than their intended, they try to punish the fans. It's just so counter-productive. I get that a fair chunk of it would also come from the never-ending backstage politics and manoeuvring by people like Hogan, but like, as much as the nWo made money, their "invasion" needed a definitive end-point, and it needed a foil beyond just Sting. This is what bugs me through this re-watch. It's all so short sighted and lot of the booking decisions also feel incredibly mean spirited and egotistical. It comes off less like the nWo is being disrespectful as a story element and more that Hogan, Eric, and Nash actually think the history and tradition of WCW is bullshit and it's funny to poo poo on it.
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Jan 29, 2021 01:38
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TheKingslayer posted:This is what bugs me through this re-watch. It's all so short sighted and lot of the booking decisions also feel incredibly mean spirited and egotistical. It comes off less like the nWo is being disrespectful as a story element and more that Hogan, Eric, and Nash actually think the history and tradition of WCW is bullshit and it's funny to poo poo on it. Eric was pretty much laser focused only on ratings, not on money or good long-term booking
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Jan 29, 2021 01:53
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TheKingslayer posted:This is what bugs me through this re-watch. It's all so short sighted and lot of the booking decisions also feel incredibly mean spirited and egotistical. It comes off less like the nWo is being disrespectful as a story element and more that Hogan, Eric, and Nash actually think the history and tradition of WCW is bullshit and it's funny to poo poo on it. One of the things that stood out to me was how everyone on screen talks about Elizabeth after she joins up with Flair. It feels like the whole thing exists only as a weird fantasy to humiliate her for leaving Savage.
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Jan 29, 2021 02:04
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Really happy I missed out on that. Yikes.
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Jan 29, 2021 02:25
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At the point I'm at Liz has just been paired back with Luger in early '99 and while I know that relationship wasn't great at least on screen she doesn't look completely miserable. Just gotta wait for Russo to go and ruin that.
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Jan 29, 2021 02:36
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Vagabundo posted:It's also indicative of WCW's worst booking instincts - if fans get behind someone other than their intended, they try to punish the fans. It's just so counter-productive. I get that a fair chunk of it would also come from the never-ending backstage politics and manoeuvring by people like Hogan, but like, as much as the nWo made money, their "invasion" needed a definitive end-point, and it needed a foil beyond just Sting. The only end point that Bischoff and Hogan wanted, it seems, is that the nWo "wins" somehow. Never mind what that meant.
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Jan 29, 2021 02:46
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TheKingslayer posted:At the point I'm at Liz has just been paired back with Luger in early '99 and while I know that relationship wasn't great at least on screen she doesn't look completely miserable. Just gotta wait for Russo to go and ruin that. I mean, they were legitimately close in real life, weren't they? They both had persona issues obviously but that didn't mean they didn't like each other. Maybe she was happy to work with somebody she was involved with currently as opposed to years nd years ago. Never thought about it before he brought it up but there was probably something to Bryan's speculation about Russo's obsession with Elizabeth due to growing up watching her be the "pure maiden" in WWF.
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Jan 29, 2021 03:13
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MrBling posted:You got the Fullers mixed up. Yeah, I thought I might have had that wrong but as usual, I didn't bother to check, so naturally I was wrong. Good catch.
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Jan 29, 2021 03:31
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TheKingslayer posted:This is what bugs me through this re-watch. It's all so short sighted and lot of the booking decisions also feel incredibly mean spirited and egotistical. It comes off less like the nWo is being disrespectful as a story element and more that Hogan, Eric, and Nash actually think the history and tradition of WCW is bullshit and it's funny to poo poo on it. Speaking of "short-sighted booking decisions," it's staggering to see so much of the stupid poo poo that Bischoff and his infinite moneyspawn chequebook did being repeated. Like, WCW hoovering up talent like Benoit, Saturn, Malenko, luchadors like Mysterio, Psicosis, etc., and even Bret Hart, and then doing sweet gently caress all with them, while putting the focus almost exclusively on a chosen few, at the expense of people the crowd is actually getting behind. It's also seen in stupid poo poo like jobbing out Sheamus after he's initially pushed to the main event, ostensibly to see if he "wants it" or The Miz while he's the loving world champion by making him a third wheel in his own title feud (not to mention needing Alex Riley and Michael Cole's help to beat a geriatric kiddie-fucker) or stalling careers for the benefit of someone who doesn't loving need it, like Rusev or Bray Wyatt (even taking into account how much of a target of opprobrium and vitriol he has ended up being). WWE keeps failing upwards, but, as the 12th put it, "nobody wins for long" and sooner or later, all of this poo poo is going to catch up to them eventually. And then what? What's going to happen when the chickens come home to roost? Defiance Industries posted:The only end point that Bischoff and Hogan wanted, it seems, is that the nWo "wins" somehow. Never mind what that meant. Honestly, when the nWo split into a face and heel faction (yes, I know they eventually reformed in the wake of the "fingerpoke of doom, butts in seats, Goldberg takes over an hour to cross a road" episode - although I don't believe for a single solitary second that this had been planned for longer than a day, maybe a week tops, before going through with it), it's like "ya done lost sight of what you were." Like, if Starrcade 97 wasn't going to be the "end" of the nWo, then an event like Bash At The Beach 98 (to bring it all full circle) or Starrcade 98 (as the big showpiece event for WCW) should have been it - and in a match type that was a WCW signature. Bischoff, and by extension, WCW at the creative level was booking by the seat of his pants, with no endgame in mind, and no idea of how to get there.
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Jan 29, 2021 04:01
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Vagabundo posted:Goldberg takes over an hour to cross a road
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Jan 29, 2021 04:07
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Vagabundo posted:Honestly, when the nWo split into a face and heel faction (yes, I know they eventually reformed in the wake of the "fingerpoke of doom, butts in seats, Goldberg takes over an hour to cross a road" episode - although I don't believe for a single solitary second that this had been planned for longer than a day, maybe a week tops, before going through with it), it's like "ya done lost sight of what you were." I haven't consumed a lot of the backstage info, shoots, Observer articles and all that but the way it looks to me is that Eric and his small group really think they're the whole drat show and are having too much fun booking themselves going over all the time to realize the boo-ing is because everyone is sick of their poo poo.
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Jan 29, 2021 05:20
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frankenfreak posted:I remember reading Death of WCW and coming across this. I imagined the picture of Goldberg in ring-gear standing at a traffic light stuck on red, just doing his heavy breathing as he waits for it to turn green and it sent me into a wild laughing fit. Good times. He stopped at a friend's house: https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2iywaz
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Jan 29, 2021 05:53
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TheKingslayer posted:At the point I'm at Liz has just been paired back with Luger in early '99 and while I know that relationship wasn't great at least on screen she doesn't look completely miserable. Just gotta wait for Russo to go and ruin that. I imagine she got real good at putting on a brave face while enduring Randy Savage's crazy rear end.
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Jan 29, 2021 13:17
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Hedgehog Pie posted:Now seems like a good time to post this classic clip. The difference in crowd reaction at around 0:54, from that's a fantastic stunner sell by JJ, lol
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Jan 29, 2021 15:07
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to 
is perhaps the greatest whiplash ever.
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TheKingslayer posted:I haven't consumed a lot of the backstage info, shoots, Observer articles and all that but the way it looks to me is that Eric and his small group really think they're the whole drat show and are having too much fun booking themselves going over all the time to realize the boo-ing is because everyone is sick of their poo poo. Also I got the impression people were too scared to say anything since he was also running things and even when you did something like Chris Jericho trying to get that angle with Goldberg nothing came of it, so why bother in the first place?
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Jan 29, 2021 15:08
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frankenfreak posted:I remember reading Death of WCW and coming across this. I imagined the picture of Goldberg in ring-gear standing at a traffic light stuck on red, just doing his heavy breathing as he waits for it to turn green and it sent me into a wild laughing fit. Good times. https://twitter.com/Toffile/status/946075058040135681?s=19
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Jan 29, 2021 17:09
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So Nash does the finger poke and then becomes champion again at Slamboree a few months later and anyone anywhere is supposed to be excited about that? lol
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Feb 2, 2021 13:21
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From what I remember, the crowds were super thrilled leading up to the Fingerpoke that Nash was going to finally give Hogan his comeuppance. Then, well...
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Feb 2, 2021 13:41
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DeathChicken posted:From what I remember, the crowds were super thrilled leading up to the Fingerpoke that Nash was going to finally give Hogan his comeuppance. Then, well... The B&V recap of it is really great, especially Vinny saying he doesn't watch anyone in the ring and just keeps his eye on the fans. "they remain standing, arms at their side, mouths agape.... they've just been hosed. All 40,000 of them..."
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Feb 2, 2021 14:03
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That Van Hammer video is amazing like most WCW things because even when you know they spent money, they rarely used it effectively or could make anything look cool. I'm obsessed with the back up band now. Let's get our super cool new guy Van Hammer in the ring and surround him by your dad's friends from work. With bandannas!
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Feb 2, 2021 14:57
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I've just watched a couple of Nitros and Thunders from November 98 and Scott Norton defends the IWGP Heavyweight title against both Lodi and Van Hammer in separate matches. And the absurdity of this image made me laugh so much, I had to screen shot it. 
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Feb 2, 2021 16:12
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Honestly surprised he doesn't sell signed 8x10s of that image
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Feb 2, 2021 16:36
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I now want him to have a WORLD CHAMPION with Ted DiBiase banner.
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Feb 2, 2021 17:33
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DeathChicken posted:From what I remember, the crowds were super thrilled leading up to the Fingerpoke that Nash was going to finally give Hogan his comeuppance. Then, well... I was too. I always taped nitro, watched the unopposed first hour live, then switched to Raw when it started and finished watching nitro on tape afterwards. That night i decided to watch nitro instead and i had regrets
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Feb 3, 2021 04:41
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DJExile posted:The B&V recap of it is really great, especially Vinny saying he doesn't watch anyone in the ring and just keeps his eye on the fans. "they remain standing, arms at their side, mouths agape.... they've just been hosed. All 40,000 of them..." What other events in wrestling compare with the Finger Poke as far as leaving fans disappointed like that? I know Verne Gagne booked some garbage. Daniel Bryan not being in the rumble Batista won, but there's gotta be other stuff. Austin turning heel?
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Feb 3, 2021 07:10
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Not on finger poke level. But the ppv before WM14 had an 8 man tag main event. Austin, Owen, terry funk and mankind vs HBK, HHH, and the new age outlaws. Well wwf knew that shawns back was hosed and he was barely going to make it to wrestlemania. They still advertised him for the match up until I believe the pre show where they announced savio Vega as his replacement because he had been doing some goon work for DX recently. Basically anyone that bought a ticket or the ppv got screwed unless they were watching the preshow which I’m pretty sure back then they were just interviews and hype to get last minute orders.
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Feb 3, 2021 07:33
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December to Dismember as a whole is a given, but especially the main event. Triple H beating Booker T at Wrestlemania is not capped off by rounds of boos or even applause for them putting on a good match, but the sight of multiple people in the crowd getting up for their piss break. Which is probably not what you want for one of your Wrestlemania world title matches.
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Feb 3, 2021 07:49
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TheKingslayer posted:What other events in wrestling compare with the Finger Poke as far as leaving fans disappointed like that?
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Feb 3, 2021 08:14
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I'll admit to being the one guy who popped for the FPoD. I was a teen at the time, Nash and Hall were my boys, and the nWo was the only thing that got me to watch WCW in the first place. Prior to Hall first showing up my opinion of WCW was "that hick wrestling show with all the old-rear end 80's WWF guys, plus goofy cartoon poo poo like the Dungeon of Doom" and I was happy to see The Cliq clown on them all with baseball bats while yelling "THUG LIFE!"
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Feb 3, 2021 08:23
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WM 28’s opening match (Sheamus beats Bryan in 13 seconds) didn’t reach that level of disappointment but it was pretty bad.
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Feb 3, 2021 08:39
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Piper and Hogan's age in the cage match was extremely disappointing imo E: also Warrior's entire wcw thing was among the bigliest of wrestling disappointments
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Feb 3, 2021 09:55
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Nick Jr. Face posted:It's not disappointment but the legitimate shock of Taker losing to Brock at WM30 is up there. After all it birthed a famous meme. This is where I'll dissent, I was in the Superdome and as a Brock mark I popped huge. But at the same time I've never experienced something like that many people being mostly rendered silent.
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Feb 3, 2021 13:52
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TheKingslayer posted:What other events in wrestling compare with the Finger Poke as far as leaving fans disappointed like that? For me, Bryan getting hosed over at HiaC ‘13 was when I realized they were never going to give a poo poo about what the fans wanted. The Rumble was just further confirmation.
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Feb 3, 2021 14:18
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Red posted:For me, Bryan getting hosed over at HiaC ‘13 was when I realized they were never going to give a poo poo about what the fans wanted. The Rumble was just further confirmation. The whole series of loving over Bryan was some of the most hateful booking I can recall. Just actively telling the fans you hate them. Also on the subject of wcw, good lord was David Flair blessed with nothing. Bad look, bad promos, ugh.
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Feb 3, 2021 14:22
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TheKingslayer posted:Also on the subject of wcw, good lord was David Flair blessed with nothing. Bad look, bad promos, ugh. He did the nutty/stalker thing alright. It was cheesy as hell but in the pro wrestling world it fit. To my knowledge though Ric just tossed him out there with flat out zero training and you kinda feel awful for him and the guys doing their damndest to get a match out of one of the greenest motherfuckers WCW had ever seen. E: Hell, even Glacier seemed to have at least something of an idea of what to do, and could actually draw on his old martial arts training. David was just... there.
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Feb 3, 2021 14:41
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DJExile posted:He did the nutty/stalker thing alright. It was cheesy as hell but in the pro wrestling world it fit. It was nice for that bit when Crowbar got a push too. I enjoyed their combo with Daffney before Stacy, cheating, and pregnancy were put into the mix. Eventually they made David too big of a part of the show, but the fact that he provided even a minimal amount of entertainment with his complete lack of training (and, seemingly, skills) was impressive in a weird way.
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Feb 3, 2021 14:54
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David Flair was worthless, and sorry but no he was not good as a stalker. It was a desperate attempt to make him interesting, and accomplished nothing other than being extremely cringeworthy in hindsight and dragging down the careers of the actually interesting performers who were saddled with him.
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Feb 3, 2021 15:06
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DJExile posted:E: Hell, even Glacier seemed to have at least something of an idea of what to do, and could actually draw on his old martial arts training. David was just... there. Glacier'd been wrestling since 1987 so he had nearly a decade in the business before his Mortal Kombat cosplay and did two stints with WCW beforehand. Apparently during the second Muta liked working with him so much he requested Ray Lloyd work with him on house shows. He even worked for UWFi which if I knew, I had forgotten until I looked it up.
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Feb 3, 2021 16:08
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Dawgstar posted:Glacier'd been wrestling since 1987 so he had nearly a decade in the business before his Mortal Kombat cosplay and did two stints with WCW beforehand. Apparently during the second Muta liked working with him so much he requested Ray Lloyd work with him on house shows. He even worked for UWFi which if I knew, I had forgotten until I looked it up. Huh! I was not aware of any of that. That's pretty awesome.
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Feb 3, 2021 18:06
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rujasu posted:David Flair was worthless, and sorry but no he was not good as a stalker. It was a desperate attempt to make him interesting, and accomplished nothing other than being extremely cringeworthy in hindsight and dragging down the careers of the actually interesting performers who were saddled with him. Nepotism in that industry is going to happen. If it means Daffney and Crowbar got to work, then I'm okay with it.
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Feb 3, 2021 18:19
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