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I can see the appeal of a game where you design a better conveyor belt to avoid breaking the things on it. And I can see the appeal of a game where you run conveyor belts across entire planets to enslave the sun. I do not think I see an appeal in both of those games happening at the same time. Like a lot of the appeal of this is watching the factory tick over and the ships jump across the sky and the sphere slowly block out the star, I think if you're going to add anything I would like it to be more things along that line, there is a strong visual element in this where you take what is a largely static universe and fill it with things that move and change. Which is another thing I think is a bit different from factorio. In factorio you're destroying a planet to turn it into grungy industry hell, whereas in this it feels much more like you're putting life into a lifeless universe. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 17:44 on Feb 2, 2021 |
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Feb 2, 2021 17:41
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yeah the "gently caress YOU AND DIE" responses are stupid but people generally come to these games expecting a certain type of gameplay and it usually doesn't involve degradation and that kind of thing. It's a good idea for a mod for sure because those kinds of "difficulty" mods exist for Factorio too but I think for the players at large it's (clearly) a bit of an off-putting thought.
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Feb 2, 2021 17:43
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Jarmak posted:What? They absolutely do! Not because they literally spontaneously combust but IRL poo poo happens constantly, or money has to be spent actively preventing it. You think we store sensitive aerospace electronics in cold, unpowered warehouses? No, they are kept in in facilities with tight tolerances for temperature and humidity. Certain biotech stuff requires cold chain support that eats a ton of energy Oh I get it now, you're wanting to build a REAL factory, instead of a VIDEO GAME factory, got it.
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Feb 2, 2021 17:44
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LifeSunDeath posted:the splitters do in fact sort. sorters as they're called in DSP are inserters, but anyway, you obviously understood what I was saying, not sure why the attitude. Are you ok   Yes, I understood what you were saying, mainly because you used pictures, but the person you were replying to may not have because you're using the wrong things to respond to his question about sorters.
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Feb 2, 2021 17:44
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explosivo posted:yeah the "gently caress YOU AND DIE" responses are stupid but people generally come to these games expecting a certain type of gameplay and it usually doesn't involve degradation and that kind of thing. It's a good idea for a mod for sure because those kinds of "difficulty" mods exist for Factorio too but I think for the players at large it's (clearly) a bit of an off-putting thought. That's fair. I think it also came to mind because in Factorio the space constraints when building kind of put a cost into holding lots of inventory at different points of production. DSP is way more spread out and space doesn't seem to be a limiting factor at all for storage concerns.
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Feb 2, 2021 17:45
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Deadmeat5150 posted:Splitters can also sort. You can slam a filter in there to pluck certain items off a line. Behold!  If you read Chinese or enjoy having google do it for you: http://www.chuapp.com/article/287793.html A little article about the development team, including a picture of their luxurious offices: 
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Feb 2, 2021 17:46
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Also, degradation in a game like this, well I'm already spending 100 percent of my time expanding, and fixing logistics issues. How on earth would I also have time to rebuild everything constantly...that would require employees...employees that I'm already paying with power, are called bots, adn they currently keep my poo poo fixed so I can build more. There is your solution.
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Feb 2, 2021 17:46
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LifeSunDeath posted:Also, degradation in a game like this, well I'm already spending 100 percent of my time expanding, and fixing logistics issues. How on earth would I also have time to rebuild everything constantly...that would require employees...employees that I'm already paying with power, are called bots, adn they currently keep my poo poo fixed so I can build more. There is your solution. That's not how anything I said works, I was talking about modeling attrition in transport/storage.
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Feb 2, 2021 17:47
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IcePhoenix posted:Are you ok I understood you, I just hate that they're called sorters and not inserters, because it's funny to me that splitters do the real heavy sorting, sorters can do it but are more for filtering at a rate, so they're like partial sorters, mostly inserters.
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Feb 2, 2021 17:48
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Jarmak posted:That's not how anything I said works, I was talking about modeling attrition in transport/storage. Cool so I'd have to rebuild the stuff that degrades right? I the person who runs the whole factory complex. Why would I do that as a savvy constructor and not instead just pay someone to do it, or build a machine to constantly refresh stuff through automated process? Instead I would be spending my whole life rebuilding everything over and over since I've got a whole solar system of bullshit packed away at times. Doing it manually would be some kind of exercise in onanism tbh.
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Feb 2, 2021 17:49
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Jarmak posted:Although I'm like 3 hours in so I don't know if it changes, I like how satisfactory seems to have aliens more like just dangerous animals that make exploration/expansion treacherous but don't send armies to eat everything you've built if you aren't keeping up with an invisible arms race. Jarmak posted:They should add holding costs and really kick up the operations sim aspect of this. One of these is not like the others.
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Feb 2, 2021 17:50
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LifeSunDeath posted:I understood you, I just hate that they're called sorters and not inserters, because it's funny to me that splitters do the real heavy sorting, sorters can do it but are more for filtering at a rate, so they're like partial sorters, mostly inserters. That's fair but when a new player is asking a question we should probably leave our personal biases out of it to avoid confusion. The translation is probably adding enough as it is  I have nicknames for like half the items at this point because it's easier for me to remember than the actual names.
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Feb 2, 2021 17:51
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LifeSunDeath posted:Cool so I'd have to rebuild the stuff that degrades right? I the person who runs the whole factory complex. Why would I do that as a savvy constructor and not instead just pay someone to do it, or build a machine to constantly refresh stuff through automated process? Instead I would be spending my whole life rebuilding everything over and over since I've got a whole solar system of bullshit packed away at times. Doing it manually would be some kind of exercise in onanism tbh. No, you don't understand what I'm talking about at all and I already backed off that specific idea in favor of abstracting it to power cost on storage so I'm not going to write out a post explaining an idea I don't like anymore. Ambaire posted:One of these is not like the others. Neither do you
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Feb 2, 2021 17:52
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I mean, inventory in storage is dead inventory, in neither this nor factorio do you ever really want to be storing things, unless it is a function of a specific form of transport, i.e giant trains, or logistics ships in this, converting large discrete deliveries into continuous supply. But the factory always prefers continuous supply, so you are always encouraged to focus on that. Like it can be fun to fill giant tanks full of stuff but the game definitely doesn't encourage it and you are basically just wasting production, if anything you generally want to minimise the amount of storage because that just makes it take longer for the factory to reach equilibrium.
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Feb 2, 2021 17:52
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IcePhoenix posted:I have nicknames for like half the items at this point because it's easier for me to remember than the actual names. Same. Got the nets, the tube nets, wrestling ring, pink/green fleshlights..
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Feb 2, 2021 17:53
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Jarmak posted:No, you don't understand what I'm talking about at all and I already backed off that specific idea in favor of abstracting it to power cost on storage so I'm not going to write out a post explaining an idea I don't like anymore. you should try automating your posts, it might be easier for you to spend time doing other stuff.
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Feb 2, 2021 17:53
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OwlFancier posted:I mean, inventory in storage is dead inventory, in neither this nor factorio do you ever really want to be storing things, unless it is a function of a specific form of transport, i.e giant trains, or logistics ships in this, converting large discrete deliveries into continuous supply. But the factory always prefers continuous supply, so you are always encouraged to focus on that. no you see, the game needs to tax us MORE, because power bottlenecks aren't quite realistic enough. Tbf, you can mod the hell out of factorio and make it stupid difficult if you want, no need for crazy realism mods that would break the game flow totally.
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Feb 2, 2021 17:54
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I really wish I had set 10x or 100x resources or used a good seed when starting. Now I'm 20 hours in and my single vein of silicon in the solar system is half depleted to 250k left after doing the purple research items. Time to figure out how to run that depletion-free mining mod! Overall I like the restrictions DSP has over Factorio-- the finite space and resources encourages you to be a little more careful with your designs.
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Feb 2, 2021 17:56
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LifeSunDeath posted:no you see, the game needs to tax us MORE, because power bottlenecks aren't quite realistic enough. Tbf, you can mod the hell out of factorio and make it stupid difficult if you want, no need for crazy realism mods that would break the game flow totally.
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Feb 2, 2021 17:56
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Jarmak posted:What? They absolutely do! Not because they literally spontaneously combust but IRL poo poo happens constantly, or money has to be spent actively preventing it. You think we store sensitive aerospace electronics in cold, unpowered warehouses? No, they are kept in in facilities with tight tolerances for temperature and humidity. Certain biotech stuff requires cold chain support that eats a ton of energy actually its already modelled within the assemblers to have some loss and the output is after the loss occurs and you cannot prove im wrong
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Feb 2, 2021 17:57
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SettingSun posted:The Factorio mod that made bottlenecked conveyors spill their contents onto the ground is a certain kind of chaos I wish upon no one. omg, that feeling when you accidentally a large storage building and it lays out hundreds of stacks of plates in the center of your spaghetti, it's sickening.
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Feb 2, 2021 18:00
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LifeSunDeath posted:you should try automating your posts, it might be easier for you to spend time doing other stuff. LifeSunDeath posted:no you see, the game needs to tax us MORE, because power bottlenecks aren't quite realistic enough. Tbf, you can mod the hell out of factorio and make it stupid difficult if you want, no need for crazy realism mods that would break the game flow totally. Just because you don't have the slightest idea how this stuff actually works or understand how the constraint I'm trying to point out is missing doesn't mean it's stupid. So how about you shut the gently caress up and stop being a poster-boy for the Dunning-Krueger effect. Allowing the player to hold virtually infinite inventory for free is as gamey as if they decided not to model electricity generation, and but for the ultimate goal for this particular game being based around harnessing power, arguably inventory management is way way way more in line with the core gameplay. Clearly I underestimated how many people in this thread are legit interested in the operations/logistics planning puzzle aspect of the game as I am, and it's totally fair to have preferences that reflect a desire in a different place on the sim<>game continuum or has a different level of challenge. But truly gently caress off with this dumb poo poo about how none of what I said makes sense. Jarmak fucked around with this message at 18:07 on Feb 2, 2021 |
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Feb 2, 2021 18:05
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Jarmak posted:That's not how anything I said works, I was talking about modeling attrition in transport/storage. I think an interesting mod (not in the base game) could be to add power and fuel requirements for the various transport forms. Right now, conveyors and planetary logistics don't cost anything once you have the belts/ships (well, you need power for the logistics towers). So a conveyor belt that takes items 5 squares away and a belt that goes halfway around the world are the same after the initial cost. If you added in some power costs per length, you could model some of what I think you want - it would add a bigger incentive to keep your supply chains short if possible, while not messing up ratios due to stochastic breakdowns. You could do a similar thing with logistic transports needing a fuel inserted to fly. This is already in the game a bit with intersteller transport requiring and consuming warpers. If it really is wanted, maybe they will add options and sliders like Factorio does. So you could check a box for attrition or transport costs, and have a slider that changes how severe those are. That way you have the base game for most of us who like our frictionless logistics systems with perfect ratios and still have options for people who like the supply chain optimization side. Gully Foyle fucked around with this message at 18:08 on Feb 2, 2021 |
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Feb 2, 2021 18:05
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Jarmak posted:But truly gently caress off with this dumb poo poo about how none of what I said makes sense. If I were your space foreman I'd make you polish all the inserters, every day, before breakfast.
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Feb 2, 2021 18:07
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Azhais posted:Behold! You crazy bastard.
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Feb 2, 2021 18:07
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Jarmak posted:So how about you shut the gently caress up and stop being a poster-boy for the Dunning-Krueger effect. 
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Feb 2, 2021 18:08
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Jarmak posted:Just because you don't have the slightest idea how this stuff actually works or understand how the constraint I'm trying to point out is missing doesn't mean it's stupid. So how about you shut the gently caress up and stop being a poster-boy for the Dunning-Krueger effect. https://i.imgur.com/lta8JNj.mp4 E: Goddamnit beaten. But this one expands 
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Feb 2, 2021 18:10
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Rynoto posted:https://i.imgur.com/lta8JNj.mp4 wish my factory could expand like that, sadly I'm stuck rebuilding all these turbomotors due to turbomotor rot which took hold of my crop.
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Feb 2, 2021 18:12
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Gully Foyle posted:I think an interesting mod (not in the base game) could be to add power and fuel requirements for the various transport forms. Right now, conveyors and planetary logistics don't cost anything once you have the belts/ships (well, you need power for the logistics towers). So a conveyor belt that takes items 5 squares away and a belt that goes halfway around the world are the same after the initial cost. If you added in some power costs per length, you could model some of what I think you want - it would add a bigger incentive to keep your supply chains short if possible, while not messing up ratios due to stochastic breakdowns. You could do a similar thing with logistic transports needing a fuel inserted to fly. In my opinion it's because these factory games are being built by people who are understanding production lines through the lens of understanding how computers/circuits work. Belts are wire, storage is a capacitor. It's not a terrible metaphorical framework and having done my undergrad in EE before studying operations management I can relate.
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Feb 2, 2021 18:14
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Jarmak posted:Just because you don't have the slightest idea how this stuff actually works or understand how the constraint I'm trying to point out is missing doesn't mean it's stupid. So how about you shut the gently caress up and stop being a poster-boy for the Dunning-Krueger effect. Nobody is arguing that the sim is already 100% realistic just that your idea sounds hellish and unfun to them. There's always a certain amount of magical hand waving around factory games because people just want to build satisfying and cool looking very large machines, not spend 80 hours a week checking if widget rotor maintenance for belts is on track and trying to minimize inventory on hand so accounting can legally juke the quarterly numbers before earning reports next week. I mean maybe some people do (you do I guess) but that's what mods are for. Don't take it personally if everyone isn't immediately turned on by your particular flavor of masochism.
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Feb 2, 2021 18:15
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Jarmak posted:In my opinion it's because these factory games are being built by people who are understanding production lines through the lens of understanding how computers/circuits work. Belts are wire, storage is a capacitor. It's not a terrible metaphorical framework and having done my undergrad in EE before studying operations management I can relate. this is such a weird flex that no one cares about, man 
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Feb 2, 2021 18:15
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mrmcd posted:Nobody is arguing that the sim is already 100% realistic just that your idea sounds hellish and unfun to them. There's always a certain amount of magical hand waving around factory games because people just want to build satisfying and cool looking very large machines, not spend 80 hours a week checking if widget rotor maintenance for belts is on track and trying to minimize inventory on hand so accounting can legally juke the quarterly numbers before earning reports next week. So are you Dunning or Kruger in this scenario? Explain it for a confirmation biased, anecdotal yokel idiot like me.
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Feb 2, 2021 18:17
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LifeSunDeath posted:So are you Dunning or Kruger in this scenario? Explain it for a confirmation biased, anecdotal yokel idiot like me. Dunning is my mecha and Kruger is the enslaved AI trapped inside who just wants to nap by one of the nice lakes. Also why are you yelling at me?
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Feb 2, 2021 18:20
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mrmcd posted:Nobody is arguing that the sim is already 100% realistic just that your idea sounds hellish and unfun to them. There's always a certain amount of magical hand waving around factory games because people just want to build satisfying and cool looking very large machines, not spend 80 hours a week checking if widget rotor maintenance for belts is on track and trying to minimize inventory on hand so accounting can legally juke the quarterly numbers before earning reports next week. Like I said, that's completely fair. I think people are also getting way wrapped around the axel about a specific idea I had for modeling the effect that they don't fully understand the implications of instead of the idea itself: which was simply making storage no longer virtually free.
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Feb 2, 2021 18:22
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Jarmak posted:In my opinion it's because these factory games are being built by people who are understanding production lines through the lens of understanding how computers/circuits work. Belts are wire, storage is a capacitor. It's not a terrible metaphorical framework and having done my undergrad in EE before studying operations management I can relate. its because theyre trying to make a fun game and not a torture machine op
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Feb 2, 2021 18:22
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mrmcd posted:Dunning is my mecha and Kruger is the enslaved AI trapped inside who just wants to nap by one of the nice lakes. Sorry my mech voice output module is all moldy and keeps glitching out, time to hand rebuild 100k of them so I can continue this conversation at normal volume for 10 seconds before I have to do it all over again.
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Feb 2, 2021 18:22
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Again though there is no reason to hold inventory in this or factorio. I haven't played satisfactory so I can't speak to that but I don't really see why it is "gamey" or in any way unbalanced because it doesn't confer any benefit? The only reason you would ever want to hold inventory is the ingame equivalent of a container port, as in the point where the giant bulk transports unload and are transferred to the smaller consumers, which is already a thing that happens IRL. Like there is genuinely no benefit to stockpiling large amounts of resources because it simply doesn't help you, resources are meant to be consumed and the penalty for stockpiling is... that you aren't making anything with the resources you spent time and effort to extract or produce. Which is a major driver for reducing inventory storage in real life too! You can if you want, store a lot of stuff in this game but I don't think there needs to be a penalty for doing so because there is already one, which is that it is absolutely no benefit to you to do so and it costs something to produce those resources in the first place. If you introduce a storage penalty it's not going to change how i play the game at all because I already don't store things. Because there isn't anything in the game really that encourages you to, other than some odd cases like early deuterium stockpiling for later use down the tech tree. The only reason for stockpiling is basically just because you can, for fun, for the sake of it, which I don't think is a thing you need to punish people for because it doesn't help them get further in the game. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 18:27 on Feb 2, 2021 |
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Feb 2, 2021 18:23
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Jarmak posted:Like I said, that's completely fair. I think people are also getting way wrapped around the axel about a specific idea I had for modeling the effect that they don't fully understand the implications of instead of the idea itself: which was simply making storage no longer virtually free. everyone understands the implications they just dont care
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Feb 2, 2021 18:23
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You know what I need in my fantasy space factory? Storage landlords! They don't do anything other than charge you money to keep your supply, and that money is very precious, almost like it's already symbolically in the game already in the form of power and finite materials...but that's not enough, we need more meta layers of currency to make it fun.
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Feb 2, 2021 18:24
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Native peoples used every part of the Sorter and let none of it go to waste.
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Feb 2, 2021 18:25
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