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Is the banner ad new? I love it.
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Jan 30, 2021 04:43
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buglord posted:Is the banner ad new? I love it.  This is amazing. Who deserves credit for this masterpiece?
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Jan 30, 2021 16:33
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So, I'm guessing "never say a number" also applies to counter-offers right? Here, it seems like it's sort of normal for people to ask their current employer to match a new offer, rather than exceed it, sometimes showing the offer to their boss. I've heard it justified as being good for both sides in that you get an immediate raise and you don't have to go through the stress of starting in a new job, which I can kind of see if you enjoy your current job, but it does seem like it might be squandering your leverage somewhat. Are counter-counter-offers considered bad form by employers or are they a normal part of the process? thotsky fucked around with this message at 16:44 on Jan 30, 2021 |
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Jan 30, 2021 16:37
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thotsky posted:So, I'm guessing "never say a number" also applies to counter-offers? Here, it seems like it's sort of normal for people to ask their current employer to match a new offer, rather than exceed it, sometimes even showing the offer to their boss. I've heard it justified as being good for both sides in that you get an immediate raise and you don't have to go through the stress of starting in a new job, but it does seem like it might be squandering your leverage somewhat.
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Jan 30, 2021 16:42
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fourwood posted:You’re about to get a lot of people telling you to never ever accept a counter offer. I understand why, in an American context, but having to train your replacement and being fired a few months down the road is virtually unheard of here. You can't fire someone for being too expensive, or being "disloyal"; you'd have to make an effort to get that person to quit if that was your goal, which is risky with the strength of our unions. thotsky fucked around with this message at 16:50 on Jan 30, 2021 |
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Jan 30, 2021 16:46
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thotsky posted:I understand why, in an American context, but having to train your replacement and being fired a few months down the road is virtually unheard of here. You can't fire someone for being too expensive, or being "disloyal" here. You'd have to make an effort to get that person to quit if that was your goal, which is risky with the strength of our unions.
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Jan 30, 2021 16:51
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thotsky posted:I understand why, in an American context, but having to train your replacement and being fired a few months down the road is virtually unheard of here. You can't fire someone for being too expensive, or being "disloyal"; you'd have to make an effort to get that person to quit if that was your goal, which is risky with the strength of our unions. If you applied because it fell into your lap or you're just testing the waters, then sure, take more money to stay at your current job. Also, make sure to consider total compensation. I have no idea what benefits are standard and which ones are government regulated in your country, but don't focus just on salary. All the other stuff adds up considerably. I also think it's safer to throw out a number for a counter-offer, because you presumably know enough to know the range they'd pay. Throwing out a number first really bites your rear end when there's an information disparity, as is often the case when applying to a new company. If you know the pay rates and local market very well, you can pretty confidently ask for the top of that range. This is just my opinion, though.
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Jan 30, 2021 17:06
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Dik Hz posted:Well, why did you apply for the other job? If you applied because there was something wrong with your current job, don't expect that something to get fixed if you take the counter-offer. Well, the new job is very interesting, and I believe I can do a good job and learn a lot there, but my current job is also enjoyable and I've already built a good reputation there. They both have their upsides and and downsides I'm sure, but if I want career advancement to keep pace with the cost of living in a metropolis I kind of have to be in the market.
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Jan 30, 2021 17:28
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If you’re ok taking the new job, and you’re ok staying at your current job, tell your current employer you need $+something. But really, if you were looking enough to go through to the point of an offer, even if it’s mostly a money thing, it’s probably not a bad idea to just make the jump and do something new.
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Jan 30, 2021 19:21
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Dik Hz posted:I've never seen it before. In case anyone's wondering: I made it for the "make an animated banner ad for a thread you think is good and ill buy it" thread, for a laugh (and because I think this is a good thread).
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Jan 30, 2021 20:25
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you're an artist
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Jan 30, 2021 20:38
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Beautiful
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Jan 30, 2021 20:43
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thotsky posted:So, I'm guessing "never say a number" also applies to counter-offers right? Here, it seems like it's sort of normal for people to ask their current employer to match a new offer, rather than exceed it, sometimes showing the offer to their boss. I've heard it justified as being good for both sides in that you get an immediate raise and you don't have to go through the stress of starting in a new job, which I can kind of see if you enjoy your current job, but it does seem like it might be squandering your leverage somewhat. You can ask for more than the offer, but you need to be more careful as you have one, or more indications, of the market. You do need to give a number though, you can't ask for more without asking for how much you want.
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Jan 31, 2021 00:56
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So I'm trying to change jobs right now and the first or second question in the interview is always "what are your salary expectations" and I don't know how to answer this without a number.
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Feb 1, 2021 04:42
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HootTheOwl posted:So I'm trying to change jobs right now and the first or second question in the interview is always "what are your salary expectations" and I don't know how to answer this without a number. My expectations are dependent on the job responsibilities and the rest of the benefits package.
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Feb 1, 2021 04:45
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"I would need to examine the entire compensation package before I can give you an answer, but I'm sure with a competitive offer we can make the numbers work."
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Feb 1, 2021 04:51
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9 out of 10 applications I come across make you enter a number bigger than zero and don't allow any non numerical characters,
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Feb 1, 2021 05:28
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So put 1
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Feb 1, 2021 05:41
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Parallelwoody posted:So put 1 This. If anyone tries to press you on it, just tell them the truth: That you think salary should be discussed after you've determined fit, and you don't feel comfortable discussing compensation expectations just yet, but if they have a range available for your consideration you'll be happy to keep that figure in mind as you navigate the hiring process. How obstinate about it you should be depends on your BATNA.
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Feb 1, 2021 05:58
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I don’t have enough data to say whether any of my applications have been screened out by doing so. I’ve done that in the past. I’ve also put what I want for salary and gotten an automated reply first thing the next morning saying “Thanks but no thanks”
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Feb 1, 2021 06:01
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I've never had it be an issue before
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Feb 1, 2021 06:04
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oops, vote quiimby
shadow puppet of a fucked around with this message at 06:38 on Feb 1, 2021 |
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Feb 1, 2021 06:34
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You messed up, you said a number. And then edited your post dammit.
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Feb 1, 2021 06:39
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real talk I needed a job and have a resume that resembles swiss cheese so in my last interview they asked about salary and I said anything in the posted range is fine because I want to work for their company and you know what they did? came in eight cents over the highest number in that range. sometimes, it pays to throw yourself entirely at the mercy and pity of the hiring manager. eight whole cents baby.
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Feb 1, 2021 06:41
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shadow puppet of a posted:real talk I needed a job and have a resume that resembles swiss cheese so in my last interview they asked about salary and I said anything in the posted range is fine because I want to work for their company and you know what they did? This however has nothing to do with negotiating and should not be used as an advice. Sure it can work, just as you could win hit the jackpot in a casino. It's just not very likely.
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Feb 1, 2021 11:45
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Thanks for the advice I'll try it going forward, the "this field only accepts numbers" box has the big hurdle.
HootTheOwl fucked around with this message at 14:24 on Feb 1, 2021 |
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Feb 1, 2021 13:56
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I just want to say that the banner ad and a mis-click were very fortuitous as I'm actually getting ready to interview currently. I'll try and have a story later today on if I hosed up or not!
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Feb 1, 2021 15:35
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I've been with this company for 1.5 years now and everything has been great so far. Getting rave reviews from my colleagues and all the stakeholders yet I just had my 2nd official Performance Review earlier this week and my manager pretty much threw me under the bus and gave me a lot of critical feedback that did not make sense. I was expecting a promotion and a raise but I will not be getting either. I want to make clear that I do like working for this company and my colleagues are great. So far in my career it is the best company I've worked for and the pay and stability of the industry is nice. This was the last Performance Review before there's a change in who I report to. My new manager felt that I deserve more and that I have his full support. However, I do not want to be working for this place if I feel undervalued and underappreciated when it comes to my official review. I know some of you may tell me to just switch jobs and that that is the best way to get a pay raise. That's an option that I am not afraid to consider but I really would like to stay with this company. How do I proceed with this? I already have a follow up meeting at the end of this week to discuss the feedback that I received. I will be prepared and challenge many of the points that my previous manager brought up. I would also mention that based on my accurate performance for last year and what I am currently responsible for that I would like a raise and a promotion. Any suggestions or advice on my current situation?
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Feb 2, 2021 22:56
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You can by all means tell them what you expect, but you should also be quietly but actively job searching at the same time. You might be surprised what turns out to be out there. The answer to the question "How do I get a raise/promotion from my current employer after they've already made it clear they don't think I'm worth it?" is "You don't." Sorry.
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Feb 2, 2021 23:29
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Busy Bee posted:I've been with this company for 1.5 years now and everything has been great so far. Getting rave reviews from my colleagues and all the stakeholders yet I just had my 2nd official Performance Review earlier this week and my manager pretty much threw me under the bus and gave me a lot of critical feedback that did not make sense. I was expecting a promotion and a raise but I will not be getting either. As has been pointed out in this thread before to people in the same situation, without a better BATNA in hand, you're not entering a negotiation phase, you're entering a begging phase. You should still engage and see what you get from it, both in terms of promotion/raise and intelligence. But you should also interview elsewhere if for no other reasons than to learn your market value and get experience doing something that's uncomfortable for lots of us. Do you have any insight into why you got torpedoed by your last manager?
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Feb 2, 2021 23:32
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Admiralty Flag posted:Do you have any insight into why you got torpedoed by your last manager? To be honest, it's hard to say. It really felt he concentrated the majority of the time on such insignificant feedback such as he wanted me to actively participate during a 2 hour training session with an external provider on a new tool that we started working with. "There was a time when the person asked if anyone wanted to share their screen to participate, you didn't raise your hand and share your screen - I would like to see you have more proactive participation" Note that I'm a fast learner, have never had any issues with any of our current tools, and routinely train our new hires on the different software we work with. I also have great relationships with the rest of the team and my participation during the other meetings we have is normal and none of the feedback that I received from my peers expressed this idea that I need to be a more "proactive participant". Really seemed that he had to dig deep to provide me with this feedback. Probably the most disingenuous feedback I received was that he completely threw me under the bus for an incident that occurred while I was on vacation for 3 weeks. I had a proper handover a week before I left and during the time I was gone, one significant emergency issue came up that was brought up to the team which was completely ignored. I even have communication where my manager informed the stakeholder that they would look into this and they never did. During the feedback review I had earlier this week, he blamed this issue on me. I obviously plan on challenging this. The whole feedback session felt lazy, confusing, inaccurate, and a complete lack of appreciation for what I accomplished. Busy Bee fucked around with this message at 23:57 on Feb 2, 2021 |
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Feb 2, 2021 23:49
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well that guy's loving off so i'd try to start off with the new guy and not let it bother you too much. this is all point-of-use feedback imo that should not have made it in to a review but thems the breaks with bad management I don't think it's worth your while to try to challenge a lot of the feedback. Be very, very careful with this as you can easily make it seem like you are not receptive to feedback. I would challenge the coverage issue factually, but also make it seem like you are responsive eg "I had arranged coverage, and manager said they would look in to it for stakeholder but did not appear to follow up. In the future I'll make sure I am more proactive about arranging coverage and ensure that everyone is on the ball." Note that you're not actually going to do different - you just need to seem receptive to the feedback. Note that you're also not admitting fault. The presentation you can just say we had some disagreement about styles, but in the end the director liked the format that I chose. I hope you have that positive feedback from the director documented. The participation thing is dumb but you should basically just say that you are going to do that. That's the kind of stupid poo poo feedback that's fake and meaningless that bad managers give when they want to ding you for no reason, but you should never ever try to fight that type of stuff because it's 100% opinion. Plus you can always say you're working on it as a development goal and then just participate a bit more performatively.
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Feb 2, 2021 23:59
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Busy Bee posted:To be honest, it's hard to say. It really felt he concentrated the majority of the time on such insignificant feedback such as he wanted me to actively participate during a 2 hour training session with an external provider on a new tool that we started working with. "There was a time when the person asked if anyone wanted to share their screen to participate, you didn't raise your hand and share your screen - I would like to see you have more proactive participation" Note that I'm a fast learner, have never had any issues with any of our current tools, and routinely train our new hires on the different software we work with. I also have great relationships with the rest of the team and my participation during the other meetings we have is normal and none of the feedback that I received from my peers expressed this idea that I need to be a more "proactive participant". Really seemed that he had to dig deep to provide me with this feedback. I was in this exact position two jobs ago and the feedback he's giving you sounds exactly like the first review I'd gotten when I also felt like I was knocking it out of the park. I stayed there for another 2 years before I finally got out. It didn't improve. I was much happier once I was in a new job that had managers that weren't shitheads. Don't make my mistake. Start looking now. If things improve before you find a better gig, great. If they don't- then it sucks for them because they lost a good employee due to a shithead manager. That's not on you
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Feb 3, 2021 00:03
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Unless you got a bad rating or the challenge goes to the new manager, challenging the review is going to be a waste of time. Even if you get the bad stuff removed you're still going to get an average rating because reviews are subjective and both your manager and HR don't want to give you an above average rating. If you want to stay, you should talk to your new manager about your trajectory and performance ignoring the outcome of this review. State what you want and then see if they think that is achievable and how to achieve it. If the outcome of this conversation isn't satisfactory the you should leave.
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Feb 3, 2021 00:12
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That's the kind of poo poo that makes me think that your old manager had some sort of incentive to find fault. I'd discuss it delicately with the new manager, but don't expect anything to come of it unless he's willing to go to bat for you to fight it. If this upsets you, start looking. A promotion delayed is a promotion denied.
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Feb 3, 2021 00:34
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If it's a new manager then maybe it all goes away and you're good. "Management" is not all in lockstep. I've taken on people with some question marks on previous reviews and after investigating determined it was more the old manager's fault than the employee. A promotion in under 2 years seems kind of quick but idk your industry or function. So maybe that's fine too.
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Feb 3, 2021 01:58
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Busy Bee posted:lovely manager lovely review stuff I had a similar experience and can give you my sample size of one. I had a new manager get an instant bad impression of me because of another opinions. He instantly torpedoed on me and poo poo on me all year regardless of my performace/kudos froms company leadership. Literally to the point where hes poo poo talking me to the ceo and the ceo says “actually i really like him, he does a great job”. I know this cuz lovely manager told me this. Anyways come review time he gives me a lovely review (2.8/5) and says even though ive done great the last several months he has to consider my performance before he started and asked if i wanted to go over the review with him... I said dont bother because i plan to dispute the review and we left it at that. Escalation went to the cfo/ceo to review who agreed and changed my review/gave me a 10% raise. My manager resigned (got fired) a month later. Ymmv (it will) but if you feel confident about your position it can be worth going after. My position was unique because i knew my boss was incompetent and leadership also knew it so i had some confidence but its something to consider. Ill also add i was beyond pissed at the job and willing to take anything else so i dngaf. Ill also add since then i got a much better boss and have been promoted and seen my pay go up 50%+ over four years and am much happier.
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Feb 3, 2021 03:53
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Not a Children posted:That's the kind of poo poo that makes me think that your old manager had some sort of incentive to find fault. I'd discuss it delicately with the new manager, but don't expect anything to come of it unless he's willing to go to bat for you to fight it.
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Feb 3, 2021 04:53
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itry posted:I made it for the "make an animated banner ad for a thread you think is good and ill buy it" thread, for a laugh (and because I think this is a good thread). y'all make keeping the OP up to date a decent chunk of work 
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Feb 3, 2021 16:59
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Question for the thread: I've recently accepted an offer, and now it's time to move forward with a background screen, drug test, etc. I'm 100% confident that I will pass all of that with ease, as I am an incredibly boring person. However, the one thing I'm wondering is how much I should care about the step where they reach out to my current employer. I intend to give my 2 weeks once I have passed everything. In the meantime, should I be concerned that having someone call and inquire about me might flag me in the system or something? For what it's worth, I work for a very large company, so I have to imagine that whoever fields these calls gets hundreds a day and is just going through the process as fast as possible. Still, though, wondered if anyone could provide any color around that specific piece of the process!
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Feb 3, 2021 19:38
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