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Irony Be My Shield posted:That's true, although Falco does have the benefit of the Reiner/Eren conversation and possibly some latent Paradis memories to give him more perspective. Sure, but mostly it seems like it's a general thing for him. After all, we see Falco pulling an enemy soldier who doesn't even see him as a human being to safety in the first episode, just because it's the right thing to do. Falco's, like, Akira Fudo levels of empathetic. The Grice family knows how to raise their kids right.
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Feb 3, 2021 14:23
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The nuance of Falco not fully buying into Marley propaganda but still partaking in its shittiness to protect someone he cares about makes him an interesting character. I had considered both he and Gabi would be radicalized by the end of Eren's rampage on Liberio, but I was refreshingly wrong. For now anyways. Hope Zeke doing what he's doing makes them open their eyes.
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Feb 3, 2021 14:32
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Blaze Dragon posted:Hence why Isayama went beyond that here. He didn't humanize the antagonists, he put them as protagonists. Gabi and Falco were the protagonists of the show for nearly all of Season 4 so far (I'd say that only in these last two or so episodes the spotlight moved to Eren - and even there a significant time is dedicated to those two), we got to see what made them tick. Who they loved, what they were hurt by, what they wanted to protect. It was a bit fast-forward, but no different than what we got from Eren and the rest. And when Eren finally took the spotlight back, it wasn't as the good guy, it was as a mass-murderer who cared nothing about innocents getting killed in his slaughter. And, as this episode proved, about what his own friends thought about his actions. I agree, but for many watchers it's too little too late. It's the same problem as in The Last of Us 2, where suddenly you are forced to play as the same character who brutally murdered the protagonist of the previous installment, and whom you hunted for the first part of the game. Being already emotionally invested in someone's story, it's hard to suddenly start to care about new set of protagonists we disliked for a significant amount of time.
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Feb 3, 2021 15:02
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Captain Invictus posted:Gabi might be my favorite character. There's a very obvious reason some hate her and imo signifies someone of the "wow cool robot" type of viewer/reader It is okay to dislike Gabi and still understand that she was indoctrinated. That doesn't absolve her of culpability, it is simply a mitigating factor. She killed a beloved character and her personality can be seen as arrogant, grating, and stubborn. Out of the new and old warrior crew, Gabi and young Reiner drunk the koolaid the hardest. Falco, Udo, Zofia, Marcel, Bert, Zeke .... all of them grew up in the same system and don't seem to have nearly that level of blind, zealous hate for the islanders. Annie was just kind of sadistic in general and didn't seem to have a particular grudge against Paradis, she even hesitated to kill Marco. edit: This is also why I dislike Gabi/S1 Eren parallels, they are only similar on a surface level. Eren hated the titans after they killed his mom, sure, but once he figured out they were humans too he chilled out. His anger was limited to those who directly caused him harm. mightygerm fucked around with this message at 15:19 on Feb 3, 2021 |
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Feb 3, 2021 15:16
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punk rebel ecks posted:They look like they're in their thirties. Shifters seem to age way faster. Uri went from a 20yo to an old man over Kenny's flashback.
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Feb 3, 2021 15:27
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mightygerm posted:edit: This is also why I dislike Gabi/S1 Eren parallels, they are only similar on a surface level. Eren hated the titans after they killed his mom, sure, but once he figured out they were humans too he chilled out. His anger was limited to those who directly caused him harm. What Eren did was shocking and possibly wrong even in the context of war due to killing civilians and foreign dignitaries. But Gabi just killed some enemy soldiers. She saw Sasha doing exactly the same thing in the previous episode. What Gabi did isn't a War Crime, it's just regular War. war is bad
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Feb 3, 2021 16:17
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I don't know if there's a Geneva Convention in this world, but Marley regularly takes Eldians, turns them into man-eating monsters, and sets them loose on Paradis. I'd probably just stomp on them too
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Feb 3, 2021 16:23
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Irony Be My Shield posted:I... guess you could see Eren's cold indifference to wiping out a building full of civilians as a form of 'chilling out'. Is he better because he kills in cold blood? You can frame Eren, Armin, and Erwin's actions as collateral damage. Their intent wasn't to kill civilians, they were simply co-located with military targets. Gabi and Sashi only killed soldiers, although Gabi has a desire to kill all islanders, military or not. Floch, Reiner and Bertholdt intentionally attacked civilian targets.
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Feb 3, 2021 16:24
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Asuron posted:She is literally Eren 2.0, except Eren had a really good life before Reiner and co came knocking on his door. Eren had a better life, but it's not he didn't also grow up in a violent ghetto. Gantolandon posted:Being on the side of the protagonists of a story is entirely normal. If people started to dislike them and cheer on their opponents, either they stopped being protagonists or the author hosed up. I get what you're saying but I think that's too broad a conclusion. People can (and have) absolutely write compelling story with a protagonist the audience can be expected to hate. Richard III and Othello are easy examples. Schwarzwald fucked around with this message at 18:33 on Feb 3, 2021 |
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Feb 3, 2021 16:47
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Captain Invictus posted:My post made reference to this meme:  Punished "Venom" Gabi is probably my favorite character behind Reiner at this point. She's literally Mirror Eren which seems to fly over a lot of the fanbase's head it seems.
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Feb 3, 2021 17:17
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War brutalizes us all but especially the viewers of an anti-war anime.
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Feb 3, 2021 17:25
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I think it's normal that you'd want Eren et al to absolutely smash Marley and even the Eldians who live there but also see the whole thing as a tragic set of circumstances with no good end. It would be one thing if Marley were going to finally leave Paradis alone and Eren's actions kickstarted an awful war, but the thing is Marley were coming for them anyway, this was literally their only course of action. And the Tyburs and Magath knew it. So I'm going to cheer Eren on while the theme song from season 1 plays.
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Feb 3, 2021 17:28
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 Yes I will die mad about the bad take
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Feb 3, 2021 17:37
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Gantolandon posted:I agree, but for many watchers it's too little too late. It's the same problem as in The Last of Us 2, where suddenly you are forced to play as the same character who brutally murdered the protagonist of the previous installment, and whom you hunted for the first part of the game. Being already emotionally invested in someone's story, it's hard to suddenly start to care about new set of protagonists we disliked for a significant amount of time. I still find it crazy that people excuse Ellie's actions but not Abby's.
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Feb 3, 2021 17:38
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Gabi killed two soldiers who were involved in an attack on her home. I don't think there's really any grounds to criticise her actions. I don't think it's unintentional that both people she killed purposefully did not shoot at her. Her life was not directly threatened, she actively put herself in a combat position. Full disclosure I love the character and I can't wait to see her development, but even though it took place during a battle, these were revenge killings, not life or death killings.
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Feb 3, 2021 17:49
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Coupe things I want to point out about Gabi. - When Reiner was subtly humanizing Paradisians at their family dinner, his mother got the hint. Gabi did not. - When Falco offered the perspective of the enemy, she shot it down specifically from a "I didn't see that happen" point of view. The latter is particularly damning because she already knows Reiner and the others went there to gently caress up their poo poo. She didn't have to see it herself, she knows they went on the attack. Rather than argue back with a coherent argument (granted she was put on the spot in a tense situation), she fell on a typical knee-jerk reaction. Yes, you literally did not see it happen with your eyes, but even 12 year olds can put two and two together. I think Gabi knows there's a reasonable explanation, but has chosen to disregard it because that means having to set aside her anger for a moment and consider alternative solutions. As was said, she drank the coolaid far more than the others, but it's tough to believe that only state radicalism is bouncing around in her head.
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Feb 3, 2021 18:43
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It's gonna all come crashing down on her really hard now that Zeke is a straight up traitor in her eyes.
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Feb 3, 2021 18:45
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Freakazoid_ posted:- When Reiner was subtly humanizing Paradisians at their family dinner, his mother got the hint. Gabi did not.
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Feb 3, 2021 18:52
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Freakazoid_ posted:but it's tough to believe that only state radicalism is bouncing around in her head. That's likely all she knows though? Recall the scene where she and the other kids were freaking out about something as simple as a festival. She was born in the ghetto of a nation that uses her people and their titan power as a battering ram against the world, and raised to believe her sole purpose is to cleanse the "bad" Eldians by becoming an honorary Marleyan through brutal training. She had no choice in the matter. [edit] Pththya-lyi posted:
Yeah, I'll never get or understand how any person's takeaway from watching Attack on Titan is "wow, this show is pro-fascist" lmao. teagone fucked around with this message at 21:28 on Feb 3, 2021 |
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Feb 3, 2021 21:23
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I should note that Marley High Command got flattened when Eren first attacked. So that should help Marley somewhat in it's horridness'.
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Feb 3, 2021 22:30
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MonsterEnvy posted:I should note that Marley High Command got flattened when Eren first attacked. Earlier, Magath had told Tybur that he mostly put the dipshits, incompetents, and nepotism cases there so Marley wouldn't be set back too badly on the leadership front.
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Feb 3, 2021 22:35
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Their plan was pretty good in terms of opening up a path towards their wider geopolitical and social objectives, but it was heartless and called for the subjugation (and potential extermination) of Paradis in order to unify the world against a common foe and improve the standing of non-Paradisian Eldians.
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Feb 3, 2021 22:46
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usenet celeb 1992 posted:Earlier, Magath had told Tybur that he mostly put the dipshits, incompetents, and nepotism cases there so Marley wouldn't be set back too badly on the leadership front. Udo (RIP) also noted that the Liberio internment zone is/was actually decent place to live for Eldians compared to the rest of the world...which is insane. It's just that Marley has had the monopoly on titan power (for now), and has held that over the other nations for years. I imagine after the Paradisian Liberio raid, the rest of the world is going to double down on their own shittiness towards Eldians and like fast-track their aerial warfare capabilities. teagone fucked around with this message at 22:52 on Feb 3, 2021 |
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Feb 3, 2021 22:50
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Well like I said, the goal is to cement the Paradisians as the Bad Eldians. This is why the play was in the internment zone, so that innocent Good Eldians could also be victims of the Island Devils. And what happens to the Eldians after dealing with Paradis rests largely on the hands of Marley as the leader of the pack, which is why the leadership needed to be renovated. Conspiratiorist fucked around with this message at 22:59 on Feb 3, 2021 |
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Feb 3, 2021 22:55
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A world where everyone has painted themselves into a corner believing that the only way they can protect what they have is to brutalize someone else, and to cut out all the parts of their conscience that tell them it's wrong. Magath (and Marley in general), Tybur, and now Eren are all the same kind of monster now.
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Feb 3, 2021 22:59
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Conspiratiorist posted:Well like I said, the goal is to cement the Paradisians as the Bad Eldians. This is why the play was in the internment zone, so that innocent Good Eldians could also be victims of the Island Devils. Zeke knew this would happen right? Really curious what his plan is, knowing the possibility that it won't just be Marley going to war with his people/Paradis, but the whole world now.
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Feb 3, 2021 23:18
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No one who's already been radicalized is going to be convinced they're wrong by calm and rational arguments in the middle of a brutal attack being carried out by the people you're being told you're wrong about, least of all a child who just saw two of her best friends be horribly killed by said attack.
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Feb 3, 2021 23:23
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teagone posted:Zeke knew this would happen right? Really curious what his plan is, knowing the possibility that it won't just be Marley going to war with his people/Paradis, but the whole world now. Magath & Tybur, Zeke, Eren, the Scouts - they were all well aware attacking the assembly would ultimately further galvanize the world against Paradis. But now Paradis has both the Founder *and* a titan with royal blood, elements that you might recall Eren once quietly theorized were necessary to activate the Coordinate, as it did when he touched Dina Fritz.
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Feb 3, 2021 23:30
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Alan_Shore posted:I think it's normal that you'd want Eren et al to absolutely smash Marley and even the Eldians who live there but also see the whole thing as a tragic set of circumstances with no good end. I think the whole purpose of season 4 up to this point is that while wanting that and feeling that is normal, it's also wrong
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Feb 3, 2021 23:32
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usenet celeb 1992 posted:Earlier, Magath had told Tybur that he mostly put the dipshits, incompetents, and nepotism cases there so Marley wouldn't be set back too badly on the leadership front. The idea was even a net gain in leadership. All the dead wood outranking Magath would die, and then the guy in charge would 1) Actually know what he's doing and 2) Not hate Eldians. That part of the plan seems to have worked. It's the part of the plan where Eren doesn't get away with everything he wanted where things hit a bit of a snag.
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Feb 3, 2021 23:33
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Conspiratiorist posted:Magath & Tybur, Zeke, Eren, the Scouts - they were all well aware attacking the assembly would ultimately further galvanize the world against Paradis. Right, I know that's explicitly what Willy Tybur suggested and he and Magath both agreed to it. My question is now that Paradis has the equivalent of the ultimate WMD, what are they gonna do with it? Will Zeke commit further atrocities and burn the world for the sake of Eldia? I wish I could binge this show already, lmao. Suuuuper tempted to read the manga, but I won't.
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Feb 3, 2021 23:42
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chiasaur11 posted:That part of the plan seems to have worked. It's the part of the plan where Eren doesn't get away with everything he wanted where things hit a bit of a snag. Yeah, losing the Warhammer, the Beast, and the docked Marleyan fleet was pretty bad, plus missing the surprise chance to eliminate Eren Jaeger right then and there. Everything else worked out, at least.
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Feb 3, 2021 23:43
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More fun stuff from our friend: "speaking of theories - Shot in the Dark: The Beast Titan is either Aaron A. Aaronson's dad OR that one Bald leader dude. the one that likes the sexy female titans." Followed by immediately realizing they were wrong because both characters would have known about the gear, and the Beast Titan did not. ETA: When we are done with Season 3 Part 1 this evening, I will go back to my sort of correct, but also definitely wrong theory about Grisha and shifters in general.
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Feb 4, 2021 00:08
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Has it been explained yet how Willy Tybur knew exactly when and where the attack would be? Did I miss it?
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Feb 4, 2021 06:42
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He literally set himself up as bait to provoke the attack.
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Feb 4, 2021 06:49
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Kampfy Von Wafflehaus posted:Has it been explained yet how Willy Tybur knew exactly when and where the attack would be? Did I miss it? The scene with him and Magath in the carriage from episode 6 explains it. He expected to be attacked during his speech, and willingly put his life in harms way and sacrificed the lives of innocent Eldians for the sake of provoking the attack. Was part of the plan. [edit] Expouding a bit, he was prepared to die in a spectacle to spur the other nations into waging a war with Paradis instead of Marley. [edit] Beaten. Should have refreshed lol. [edit 2] Should also note, it's a rather important scene between Magath and Tybur that explains a lot. teagone fucked around with this message at 07:06 on Feb 4, 2021 |
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Feb 4, 2021 06:56
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teagone posted:The scene with him and Magath in the carriage from episode 6 explains it. He expected to be attacked during his speech, and willingly put his life in harms way and sacrificed the lives of innocent Eldians for the sake of provoking the attack. Was part of the plan. [edit] Expouding a bit, he was prepared to die in a spectacle to spur the other nations into waging a war with Paradis instead of Marley. Yes I saw this scene but I'm still confused as to where his information that a Paradis attack may even happen is coming from? How would he know Eren is even in town let alone crazy enough to pull something like that with any type of certainty?
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Feb 4, 2021 07:17
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They didn't know Eren himself would attack, but they had become aware that Paradis and their would-be allies among Marley's many enemies had their sights on him. So Tybur set a trap with himself and the top Marleyan brass as bait, and Paradis bit.
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Feb 4, 2021 07:22
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teagone posted:The scene with him and Magath in the carriage from episode 6 explains it. He expected to be attacked during his speech, and willingly put his life in harms way and sacrificed the lives of innocent Eldians for the sake of provoking the attack. Was part of the plan. [edit] Expouding a bit, he was prepared to die in a spectacle to spur the other nations into waging a war with Paradis instead of Marley. That scene confused the gently caress out of me. How was he so sure that Paradis would attack during the conference? Like what made Eren choose to attack then and there? Why do they hate Paradis and the Eldians anyway if everyone has titans?
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Feb 4, 2021 07:35
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punk rebel ecks posted:How was he so sure that Paradis would attack during the conference? Like what made Eren choose to attack then and there? Tybur deliberately made himself vulnerable to attack in what was an extravagant theater spectacle. He essentially painted a target on himself. quote:Why do they hate Paradis and the Eldians anyway if everyone has titans? Not everyone has titans. Only subjects of Ymir can wield that power; that's how Marley became the dominant nation, by maintaining a monopoly on titan power through racial oppression.
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Feb 4, 2021 07:42
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