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Yeah but those are less important than "did i like it", and I like The Hobbit.
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Feb 4, 2021 23:32
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I also like the Hobbit* *movies
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Feb 4, 2021 23:33
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Once a year we get a page with "The Hobbit book is bad, but the movies are foolishly reviled masterpieces."
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Feb 4, 2021 23:36
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Data Graham posted:LotR is a more realistically grounded story altogether, which is (part of) why those movies work a lot better as live-action, I think. "Unfilmable" they called it, and Jackson proved that wrong; but trying to do the Hobbit as a victory lap was a bridge too far. Even Tolkien gave up on his more realistic and grounded rewrite of The Hobbit because he couldn't make it work, so no-one else had even the slightest chance.
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Feb 4, 2021 23:37
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euphronius posted:There are objective elements to media such as film novels etc by which things can be judged objective art criticism is pretty elitist imo
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Feb 4, 2021 23:40
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euphronius posted:There are objective elements to media such as film novels etc by which things can be judged One time you claimed that Glamdring was objectively not created in Gondolin, directly contradicting Tolkien himself.
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Feb 5, 2021 00:09
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Yes I was right Hobbit Gondolin was not Gondolin
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Feb 5, 2021 00:14
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euphronius posted:There are objective elements to media such as film novels etc by which things can be judged Objectively good aspects of a film do not a good film make. Film history is littered with bad movies that have gorgeous cinematography, wonderful soundtracks, superb performances, etc. Any cook can tell you that there's more to making good food than just assembling "objectively good" ingredients. What you're describing is a very Sheldon-from-BBT, beep boop way of evaluating art. Imagined fucked around with this message at 00:22 on Feb 5, 2021 |
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Feb 5, 2021 00:18
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Imagined posted:Objectively good aspects of a film do not a good film make. Film history is littered with bad movies that have gorgeous cinematography, wonderful soundtracks, superb performances, etc. I literally have no idea what you are trying to say
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Feb 5, 2021 00:23
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euphronius posted:I literally have no idea what you are trying to say Beep boop
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Feb 5, 2021 00:24
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If they are trying to say there are good movies that I don’t like ... ok I already said that
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Feb 5, 2021 00:26
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Southpaugh posted:Once a year we get a page with "The Hobbit book is bad, but the movies are foolishly reviled masterpieces." You're saying once we're through this one we're safe till 2022?
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Feb 5, 2021 00:33
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euphronius posted:If they are trying to say there are good movies that I don’t like ... ok I already said that The word good is a value judgement and as such is intrinsically subjective.
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Feb 5, 2021 00:33
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sweet geek swag posted:The word good is a value judgement and as such is intrinsically subjective. No. You are getting sloppy with your usage of words.
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Feb 5, 2021 00:35
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I'm saying that all the "objectively good" qualities you can name do not add up to an "objectively good" whole. It does not follow that if the cinematography, acting, script, effects, casting, soundtrack, etc are all objectively good (they aren't even all good in this case) then the resulting film must be "objectively good". It's more than the sum of its parts, the proof is in the pudding, etc, etc
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Feb 5, 2021 00:35
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Southpaugh posted:Once a year we get a page with "The Hobbit book is bad, but the movies are foolishly reviled masterpieces." I'm willing to make a post with no content if it will get us off this page faster.
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Feb 5, 2021 00:35
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Movies have objective qualities upon which they can be judged, such as a running time of 182 minutes
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Feb 5, 2021 00:37
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Imagined posted:I'm saying that all the "objectively good" qualities you can name do not add up to an "objectively good" whole. It does not follow that if the cinematography, acting, script, effects, casting, soundtrack, etc are all objectively good (they aren't even all good in this case) then the resulting film must be "objectively good". If the film contains all objectively good elements I don’t understand how you can say it’s not objectively good To those people wanting to move on, I understand that it’s painful to come to terms with the objective world and your meaninglessness in it but you have to sooner or later and the sooner the better.
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Feb 5, 2021 00:38
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euphronius posted:No. You are getting sloppy with your usage of words. You're objectively wrong.
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Feb 5, 2021 01:01
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I objectively want you all to shut the hell up about how people phrase their attempts to justify their opinions.
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Feb 5, 2021 01:22
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Anybody that wants the full story as to why The Hobbit movies ended up like they did should watch the Appendices included with the Blu-rays and (I assume) the DVDs. They are far better than the movies they are attached to and make the reasoning for a lot of the flaws pretty clear. You get the distinct impression that Jackson didn't really want to make them, the movies were rushed into production (they were writing the stuff on the fly), and the movies being 3D meant that most of the production techniques used so well in LotR didn't work and had to be re-invented.
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Feb 5, 2021 01:23
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euphronius posted:If the film contains all objectively good elements I don’t understand how you can say it’s not objectively good Objectively good elements can still be incoherent between each other. If you give an objectively good war drama the objectively good score of a buddy cop comedy, that's not gonna work out.
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Feb 5, 2021 01:26
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I haven't seen the Hobbit movies, the clips I watched on Youtube turned me away but the clip I saw of Galadriel saying "Mithrandir" under moonlight owned immensely, incredible scenes, and I am happy to leave it at that and watch nothing else. An elf and a Maia on almost equal levels of power and majesty saying whattup https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDrHFsX6FsE
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Feb 5, 2021 01:39
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WHO WANTS A CHANGE OF SUBJECT? I DO! I've finally played War of the Ring, as the Free Peoples player. It's a crunchy but extremely fun board game where Aragorn can gather all the armies of Gondor in Minas Tirith for a dramatic final stand and protracted siege, and then get absolutely bodied because the Witch-King and four loving Nazgul all roll in with a giant army of orcs and Southrons. My final stab at victory was a desperate alliance of the men of Dale and dwarves of Erebor trying to take back Dol Guldur. It worked quite well, right up until the Easterlings took advantage of the bulk of the army being away to take both Dale and Erebor for the win. (The elves of the Woodland Realm would've helped, but they'd long since since been wiped out trying to take back Lorien.) girl dick energy fucked around with this message at 01:49 on Feb 5, 2021 |
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Feb 5, 2021 01:45
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pyrotek posted:Anybody that wants the full story as to why The Hobbit movies ended up like they did should watch the Appendices included with the Blu-rays and (I assume) the DVDs. They are far better than the movies they are attached to and make the reasoning for a lot of the flaws pretty clear. You get the distinct impression that Jackson didn't really want to make them, the movies were rushed into production (they were writing the stuff on the fly), and the movies being 3D meant that most of the production techniques used so well in LotR didn't work and had to be re-invented. Yeah, it's mostly this. They spent years prepping for LOTR versus weeks or months prepping for the Hobbit movies, and it shows.
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Feb 5, 2021 02:00
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The Hobbit is such a well written work and imo the best thing Tolkien wrote. I can't imagine disliking it.
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Feb 5, 2021 02:00
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On a similar note there are small pockets of the Fantasy Flight LOTR LCG on Tabletop Simulator and OCTGN. I don't know if anyone has interest in that, but the original cards are really hard to get now but you can play the whole thing on those platforms. Would love to run through some of the early expansions and deckbuild if anyone is keen. Install some Orthanc-lookin gaming tables on TTS and stuff
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Feb 5, 2021 02:00
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sweet geek swag posted:https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJGOq3JclTH_7G3wHRpECZLEMsvKQ8_hr Ah, I gave up on that series after the first video didn't seem to do any criticism of the Hobbits, just reminisced about the LOTRs. I am interested in the labor disputes that I heard she covers in the later ones, so I suppose I should finish it . . almost 2 hours tho . . I bookmarked it, but I might just try to find the interviews themselves euphronius posted:I will give the hobbit another go. I have had intensely negative experiences with it recently (I can’t even make it to Rivendell) so maybe that was more my own headspace and not the book. I mean it is for children, like Roverandom or Farmer Giles. It's good in that context, especially compared to poo poo like Harry Potter, but there's really no need revisit it if you didn't enjoy it. If you're in the mood for fantasy get some Fritz Leiber if you haven't before - I finally found some Fafhrd and Gray Mouser, it slaps! No Pants posted:objective art criticism is pretty elitist imo Elitism, in MY elf books thread?? Imagined posted:Objectively good aspects of a film do not a good film make. Film history is littered with bad movies that have gorgeous cinematography, wonderful soundtracks, superb performances, etc. I think I know what you mean but I'd be interested in some examples of bad gorgeous/superb/etc movies. And there's no need to get ableist over this disagreement, sheesh Ginette Reno posted:The Hobbit is such a well written work and imo the best thing Tolkien wrote. I can't imagine disliking it. I like it plenty but it's not better than Lotr or Sil or even unfinished tales.
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Feb 5, 2021 06:24
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Ginette Reno posted:The Hobbit is such a well written work and imo the best thing Tolkien wrote. I can't imagine disliking it. yeah hating the hobbit is like hating the brothers grimm or something
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Feb 5, 2021 10:49
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CommonShore posted:The old Hobbit cartoon is the superior movie and they should have just done a live action remake from the same script if they wanted a new movie. The first Lotr film had many scenes that were straight remakes from the Lotr cartoon. euphronius posted:They aren’t “bad” movies . This is the same problem I think people get into when they call the prequels bad. They are objectively good films and so are the hobbit ones. There is plenty you may not like about them and even I don’t like episode 1 of Star Wars but they are well made films all The Hobbit is a children's novel, while Lotr is for some years older demographic. Perhaps that's why many adults prefer Lotr. I'm not sure if it would count as a YA novel, since most characters are adults, and relationships don't play a big role in it. sweet geek swag posted:All I'm saying is that if you have to try to pretend that your opinion isn't an opinion, but is instead an objective fact, maybe you aren't making a serious argument. This is the Tolkien thread for goodness sake. We should at least try to use words like objectively correctly. You are objectively wrong. The basic premise of opinion pieces is that you believe in your opinions. Eg. I have completely opposite opinions about the Hobbit book and films than Euphronius, but that doesn't make him a troll.
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Feb 5, 2021 10:52
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The end of the hobbit isn’t very children’s booky iirc
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Feb 5, 2021 15:41
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The Hobbit was the best thing I had ever read when I was eight years old and life has all been downhill from there so, therefore
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Feb 5, 2021 16:04
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Blood Boils posted:I think I know what you mean but I'd be interested in some examples of bad gorgeous/superb/etc movies. David Lynch's Dune springs to mind. Gorgeous cinematography, great sets, soundtrack, costumes, effects, etc. Dog poo poo (if fun) movie. Alien 3. Really stylish, atmospheric, excellent cast, cool soundtrack. Terrible movie. Sucker Punch, Speed Racer, Tron: Legacy, Tree of Life... all movies with a lot of objectively good aspects that aren't generally considered good films, even if they each have dedicated fans. quote:And there's no need to get ableist over this disagreement, sheesh Ok, fair cop. I totally was trying to say the a-word without saying it, but it is ableist of me to insinuate that only folks on the spectrum evaluate things like that. But it does seem to be a trend of modern YouTube criticism to try to judge movies by "objective" numbers. How many jokes per minute (nevermind if they're funny) or how many "plot holes", etc. Imagined fucked around with this message at 16:24 on Feb 5, 2021 |
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Feb 5, 2021 16:19
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I suspect that lots of people in this argument don't have a clear sense of what "objective" means.
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Feb 5, 2021 16:21
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ChubbyChecker posted:You are objectively wrong. The basic premise of opinion pieces is that you believe in your opinions. Eg. I have completely opposite opinions about the Hobbit book and films than Euphronius, but that doesn't make him a troll. I mean I don't know if you missed it but this whole thing started with him saying "objectively good films" and "objectively bad book"
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Feb 5, 2021 16:25
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Imagined posted:David Lynch's Dune springs to mind. Gorgeous cinematography, great sets, soundtrack, costumes, effects, etc. Dog poo poo (if fun) movie. Alien 3 and tree of life are good movies  Certainly not flawless or the best of their respective auteurs, but I don't see how their popularity or reception effect their qualities (good or bad)I have only seen bits of Dune, I like what I see. Been meaning to watch it properly before the new one comes out.
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Feb 5, 2021 16:41
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To me personally there can be a difference between "I like or enjoy this" and "This is good". A lot of people obviously don't make that distinction, or don't think it's worth making. I definitely enjoyed Dune, Alien 3 (at least, the most recent cut of it), Tron: Legacy, Speed Racer, etc.
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Feb 5, 2021 16:48
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CommonShore posted:I suspect that lots of people in this argument don't have a clear sense of what "objective" means.
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Feb 5, 2021 16:49
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Imagined posted:To me personally there can be a difference between "I like or enjoy this" and "This is good". A lot of people obviously don't make that distinction, or don't think it's worth making. I definitely enjoyed Dune, Alien 3 (at least, the most recent cut of it), Tron: Legacy, Speed Racer, etc. Road House is the best movie ever made because I have the most fun watching it.
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Feb 5, 2021 17:16
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CommonShore posted:I suspect that lots of people in this argument don't have a clear sense of what "objective" means. Welcome to postmodernism.
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Feb 5, 2021 18:52
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