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STAC Goat posted:Holy crap WandaVision! A Very Special Episode indeed!  I haven't been legit taken by surprise like that since Lost ended. Also, holy crap, "no, MORE mutants!" happened, the maniacs
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Feb 5, 2021 20:01
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Phylodox posted:Which is what I’m discussing. The conversation is about whether a film succeeds at what it was trying to do, so inferring the filmmaker’s intent is kind of inextricable from the conversation. "Unless you think Zack Snyder literally believes in eugenics and fascism, you have to assume 300 is meant to be satire in the vein of Starship Troopers" "And (and I don't think this should be a remotely controversial opinion) I very, very much don't believe that Zack Snyder is either a eugenics proponent or a fascist." Case closed, I guess.
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Feb 5, 2021 20:05
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Phylodox posted:Which is what I’m discussing. The conversation is about whether a film succeeds at what it was trying to do, so inferring the filmmaker’s intent is kind of inextricable from the conversation. you will never know the filmmaker's intent, nor what a film is "trying to do". never. you have damned yourself to an impossible task I would suggest the audience's intent is far more important in any kind of criticism. if I, a pre-modern time traveller with no understanding of the concept of "fascism", sit down to watch Starship Troopers, have I experienced a satire?
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Feb 5, 2021 20:06
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Schwarzwald posted:"Unless you think Zack Snyder literally believes in eugenics and fascism, you have to assume 300 is meant to be satire in the vein of Starship Troopers" I suppose, if you're not interested in having any kind of conversation about whether it's effective at what it sets out to do, yeah. I don't know why you're being so dismissive. If you don't want to discuss it, you don't have to. Lt. Danger posted:you will never know the filmmaker's intent, nor what a film is "trying to do". never. you have damned yourself to an impossible task You can't know a filmmaker's, like, deep, inner heart or anything, no, but I think it's possible, probably pretty easy, to discern quite a bit about a filmmaker given the choices they make in their films and the statements they make about them. Again, if you don't want to discuss it or think such a discussion is impossible...then don't take part in the discussion? Phylodox fucked around with this message at 20:09 on Feb 5, 2021 |
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Feb 5, 2021 20:07
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I think the question of the satirical content in ST in particular sort of fascinating in that the question by itself of whether a few silly commercials interspersed with in the movie are enough to portray the entire movie itself as satirical is valid, but also its release prior to 9/11 and how the irl political/societal structure became somewhat indistinguishable from the film in the aftermath, and how does that effect both the message from the movie and the message received by the viewer both in the immediate post 9/11 landscape, and now 20 years later. What does a post reading of the film where we can see the satire perhaps more clearly now mean for how it was taken at its release, can we read them separately or does something only count as satire if it is read that way universally at all points in time?
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Feb 5, 2021 20:08
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Phylodox posted:You can't know a filmmaker's, like, deep, inner heart or anything, no, but I think it's possible, probably pretty easy, to discern quite a bit about a filmmaker given the choices they make in their films and the statements they make about them. counterpoint: Richard Schickel et al apparently found it quite difficult! discuss what you like. I think it is always worth considering if what you are discussing is what you actually are discussing - that when you speak of whether an artist is a knowing satirist or a blind idiot watchmaker, you are not accidentally only describing yourselves
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Feb 5, 2021 20:18
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Zach Snyder makes rape jokes, talks about how cool dead bodies are, intentionally gives people like Jared Leto and Amber Heard bigger roles, and various other things. He doesn't need to be an evil eugenics monster to be kind of an rear end in a top hat. Nor does being an assholes mean he also can't be good to people also.
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Feb 5, 2021 20:18
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300, the film, adds in a scene of a field of dead baby spartan skeletons followed by extreme child abuse to turn young boys into killing machines. Neither scene is in Frank Miller's comic. Zack Snyder, in an interview, has said that the scenes are there to make you go "Wait a minute, these Spartan guys are insane, I'm not like them" so congrats to the BSS movie thread for figuring it out.
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Feb 5, 2021 20:19
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Roth posted:300, the film, adds in a scene of a field of dead baby spartan skeletons followed by extreme child abuse to turn young boys into killing machines. Neither scene is in Frank Miller's comic. The thing is, though, that he included that in the beginning of the film. Like I said, he starts the film off by horrifying you with these barbaric, monstrous Spartans, but then spends the rest of the movie showing us how these hard men are necessary to hold back the tides of true monsters. I think that if it was meant to be satirical, then there needed to be more subversion, more give and take, push and pull. Again, disclaimer, that's my opinion.
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Feb 5, 2021 20:26
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Phylodox posted:I suppose, if you're not interested in having any kind of conversation about whether it's effective at what it sets out to do, yeah. I don't know why you're being so dismissive. If you don't want to discuss it, you don't have to. I think it's difficult to have a constructive conversation about whether a given work is effective at being satire without having it come down to personal taste and opinion. Like, I personally think beginning with a pile of dead babies, having the titular 300 be slaughtered to a man (they fail to "hold back the tides of true monsters") and ending on Dilios tricking the gullible Greeks into handing him an army is plenty convincing. If you don't then... well, we disagree. And at that point "does the film succeed at what it set out to do" is just a fancy way of saying "do I, personally, like the film?" And I don't think that's an interesting question. Because of course we don't like the film! It's a comic book film, and the only good comic film is Batman Returns. site posted:What does a post reading of the film where we can see the satire perhaps more clearly now mean for how it was taken at its release, can we read them separately or does something only count as satire if it is read that way universally at all points in time? For the record, this is exactly why I brought up Richard Schickel's review. And a trip to your review aggregator of choice will turn up a dozen more. Schwarzwald fucked around with this message at 20:42 on Feb 5, 2021 |
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Feb 5, 2021 20:39
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Schwarzwald posted:I think it's difficult to have a constructive conversation about whether a given work is effective at being satire without having it come down to personal taste and opinion. Like, I personally think beginning with a pile of dead babies, having the titular 300 be slaughtered to a man, and ending on Dilios tricking the gullible Greeks into handing him an army is plenty convincing. If you don't then... well, we disagree. I mean...no? I actually quite like 300. It kind of frightens me, given everything I've discussed here, but I don't...not like it. It's a fascinating movie, especially given its context as a post-9/11 thesis on war and propaganda.
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Feb 5, 2021 20:42
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Phylodox posted:The thing is, though, that he included that in the beginning of the film. Like I said, he starts the film off by horrifying you with these barbaric, monstrous Spartans, but then spends the rest of the movie showing us how these hard men are necessary to hold back the tides of true monsters. I think that if it was meant to be satirical, then there needed to be more subversion, more give and take, push and pull. They are ultimately slaughtered by the Persians after rejecting multiple peace offerings. The digetic of the film itself is that it's a story being told by Dilios, who according to Snyder knows not to let the truth get in the way of fiction. It is up to the viewer to determine what is fact and what is fiction. For instance, Dilios is the one that knocks the Immortals' mask off, reveals a monster, and is nearly killed by him. Should we take this as a 100% faithful account that the Immortals were monsters, or that it is Dilios imagining the man that nearly killes him to be a monster? Ephiliates is rejected on shaky grounds and goes on to betray the Spartans. Is that a necessary decsion, or should Leonidas have figured something out for the guy? Similarly, is it necessary that Leonidas repeatedly rejects Xerxes offers for peace that would see him as warlord of Greece, or does he reject it out of pride because Athena did, and then intentionally go out of his way to start a war? Remember, his plan is to get himself killed so that all of Greece goes to war. I also think it's interesting that the scenes with the most fantastical elements are the ones Dilios isn't there for (Xerxes' camp with Ephilates for instance). This all serves a point that Snyder was making, and says as much in interviews, that it is interesting to see how a filmmaker can get you on the side of anyone. Had it been from the point of view of the Persians then the viewer would have walked away thinking the Spartans were insane barbarians. Since we find out it's all a story told by Dilios, it's up to us as the audience to think back on the film and question the parts of Dilios' story that seem weird.
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Feb 5, 2021 20:45
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What is the importance of being able to say definitively "it is satire" or "it is not satire"? That's a really reductive question. "300" is a movie about a guy telling a bunch of other guys a highly embellished campfire story about soldiers from the kingdom of baby murderers being tough and brave and their enemies being monstrous, in order to get them to toughly and bravely fight the same enemy. I read it as a story about the power of stories. The framing device establishes the existence of a biased and unreliable narrator. It's an invitation for the viewer to reflect on the inner story, full of glistening abs and sick stunts and snappy one-liners and inhuman foes, consider who is telling that story and why, and reflect on the other stories they've been told.
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Feb 5, 2021 20:46
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Jamesman posted:...What? For me, the whole bit is working. Vision even kind of deconstructs the decade-jumping gimmick It's well played that they went in the first two episodes relatively straight since audiences probably viewed those as more distant and goofy anyway, but the more recent eras have more complexity. The part with she almost took Thanos!/Cap Marvel could have too! and the Hex reference probably didn't work for everyone though
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Feb 5, 2021 20:47
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Lt. Danger posted:you will never know the filmmaker's intent, nor what a film is "trying to do". never. you have damned yourself to an impossible task Sure you do. A lot of them just post on Twitter about it.
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Feb 5, 2021 20:48
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I was not prepared for the "actually, the point of 300 is that it's dumb to resist the Persians!!!" take.
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Feb 5, 2021 20:51
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I also think that if a filmmaker intended on something is really irrelevant once the film is out there. I think 300 is satirical in nature, but I can't stop people from getting something far more malicious out of it bo matter how wrong I think they are. Just as I can't stop them from thinking similarly of Starship Troopers or Fight Club. If I recall correctly, the director of Grave of the Fireflies said the movie was supposed to be showing the punk kids of the 80s that they have nothing to bitch about. I think that's a load of poo poo, and the movie says far more about war and making food a priveledge than any kind of crotchety old man garbage.
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Feb 5, 2021 20:53
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FilthyImp posted:The part with she almost took Thanos!/Cap Marvel could have too! and the Hex reference probably didn't work for everyone though Like beyond the big stuff in WandaVision there's still a lot of other questions that seem like they could be important like why Monica's medical tests were blank. Or why Agnes seems more aware and cooperative. It feels like we're only really chipping at the show's actual explanation so far.
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Feb 5, 2021 20:55
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Fangz posted:I was not prepared for the "actually, the point of 300 is that it's dumb to resist the Persians!!!" take. No one is saying this, it would help if you engage with the posts that were actually made instead of engaging with the ones in your head
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Feb 5, 2021 20:58
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Fangz posted:I was not prepared for the "actually, the point of 300 is that it's dumb to resist the Persians!!!" take. The point of 300 is the power of storytelling and it's good to question it afterwards. But if you'd like to take the most disingenuous reading of a post for a dumb gotcha, I sure wasn't prepared for someone to unironically suggest everything the Spartans did was necessary to fight the Persians!
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Feb 5, 2021 20:59
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STAC Goat posted:Its really deep in MCU and comics knowledge, but I wonder if that's meaningful or just easter eggs. Like the Hex thing is probably just fan service, but I'm curious about the Captain Marvel stuff. Was that just them saying "yeah, we remember she knows Captain Marvel"? Or was it implying some later story content and character stuff? I'm fairly confident that, given her reaction to hearing about Carol, that their relationship will be explored either in the show or in CM2. Monica pretty clearly does not want to think about Carol, but she is already known to be in the next movie so I can't believe they would lay the groundwork for it here and then ignore it in the upcoming film
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Feb 5, 2021 21:00
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Roth posted:I also think that if a filmmaker intended on something is really irrelevant once the film is out there. I think 300 is satirical in nature, but I can't stop people from getting something far more malicious out of it bo matter how wrong I think they are. Just as I can't stop them from thinking similarly of Starship Troopers or Fight Club. I absolutely don't disagree with you that 300 is satirical in nature. I just don't think it succeeds as well as you do. I think, for me, it works as a kind of artifact of the immediate post-9/11 conflicted American mindset. It knows it should be critical of propaganda, of war, of atrocities, but at the same time it can't help but indulge a bit too earnestly in those fantasies.
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Feb 5, 2021 21:05
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ImpAtom posted:Zach Snyder makes rape jokes, talks about how cool dead bodies are, intentionally gives people like Jared Leto and Amber Heard bigger roles, and various other things. John Milius is a conservative monster. Couldn't care less about the personality of a filmmaker. Like Lt. Danger said, the work is the work.
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Feb 5, 2021 21:06
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Phylodox posted:I absolutely don't disagree with you that 300 is satirical in nature. I just don't think it succeeds as well as you do. I think, for me, it works as a kind of artifact of the immediate post-9/11 conflicted American mindset. It knows it should be critical of propaganda, of war, of atrocities, but at the same time it can't help but indulge a bit too earnestly in those fantasies. Right, but at that point there's just not much interesting conversation to be had I think. Just degrees of "Eh this did or did not work for me"
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Feb 5, 2021 21:07
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site posted:I'm fairly confident that, given her reaction to hearing about Carol, that their relationship will be explored either in the show or in CM2. Monica pretty clearly does not want to think about Carol, but she is already known to be in the next movie so I can't believe they would lay the groundwork for it here and then ignore it in the upcoming film Endgame heavily implies that Capt Marvel hasn't been to Earth for a long time, at least long enough that none of the heroes (Stark, Natasha, Bruce, Rhodes, etc) know who she is, so Monica could be feeling abandoned and betrayed, especially if Carol wasn't there at all for her mother's illness.
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Feb 5, 2021 21:08
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I’m wondering how they’re going to deal with the power creep. Captain marvel and Strange are already kind of hitting the ceiling, but Wanda bending reality is a whole different level. I’m hoping they don’t kill her off but having a reality bender running around seems pretty OP regardless of the situation. Unless they go the X-men animated series route and have her be knocked out in the first 5 seconds of every fight like Jean and Xavier.
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Feb 5, 2021 21:08
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Davros1 posted:Endgame heavily implies that Capt Marvel hasn't been to Earth for a long time, at least long enough that none of the heroes (Stark, Natasha, Bruce, Rhodes, etc) know who she is, so Monica could be feeling abandoned and betrayed, especially if Carol wasn't there at all for her mother's illness That was my take
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Feb 5, 2021 21:09
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Davros1 posted:Endgame heavily implies that Capt Marvel hasn't been to Earth for a long time, at least long enough that none of the heroes (Stark, Natasha, Bruce, Rhodes, etc) know who she is, so Monica could be feeling abandoned and betrayed, especially if Carol wasn't there at all for her mother's illness. Yeah I definitely feel like the "abandoned child watching her mother pine for someone who never comes home" angle is gonna come up site fucked around with this message at 21:14 on Feb 5, 2021 |
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Feb 5, 2021 21:11
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One interesting thing about 300 is the interview with Miller about how he could never fully convey the horror of actual Spartan life because it would make the audience lose sympathy for them as protagonists. Miller at least intellectually grappled with the subject, and decisively decided on the side of making his work a piece of pop propoganda. With Snyder's photo-copying manner towards adaptations, there isn't even that level of thought put into it. There's flashes of bodies or whatever in the beginning, but its essentially an action movie for the bronze age. And it does its job pretty well in that regard. That ending is pure Braveheart btw. Like, on a one to one level. It's pretty in your face regarding it.
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Feb 5, 2021 21:12
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Roth posted:Right, but at that point there's just not much interesting conversation to be had I think. I mean *shrug* I disagree. I think questions of where the line lies between parodying propaganda and just straight up making propaganda lie, especially within the context of an early-2000s America, are fascinating, and I think 300 is maybe one of the best, if not the best, examples of this. But I understand not everyone is going to want to talk about it, especially because Snyder tends to be a very divisive figure and, more often than not, it leads to just straight up arguing.
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Feb 5, 2021 21:14
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Davros1 posted:Endgame heavily implies that Capt Marvel hasn't been to Earth for a long time, at least long enough that none of the heroes (Stark, Natasha, Bruce, Rhodes, etc) know who she is, so Monica could be feeling abandoned and betrayed, especially if Carol wasn't there at all for her mother's illness. That definitely could be it but there's also the element of SWORD itself being retconned into the MCU. So I could see there being untold stories with Marvel and SWORD/SHIELD. Marvel doesn't have to have been a known commodity or regular on Earth to have had more interactions with individual players. If anything it actually struck me odd to assume that she just hosed off for Earth and never flew back to visit for 30 years. A talking coyote posted:I’m wondering how they’re going to deal with the power creep. Captain marvel and Strange are already kind of hitting the ceiling, but Wanda bending reality is a whole different level. I’m hoping they don’t kill her off but having a reality bender running around seems pretty OP regardless of the situation. Unless they go the X-men animated series route and have her be knocked out in the first 5 seconds of every fight like Jean and Xavier.
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Feb 5, 2021 21:17
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Shageletic posted:John Milius is a conservative monster. The idea of divorcing a work from the artist in that sense is basically impossible to do with living memory. Or even outside it. Think about how much of the study of Dickens is linked to his father's experience with debtor's prison. Or the speculation and reframing of Michelangelo's work from a queer perspective. The idea of being able to experience art in a vacuum, 'without knowing what fascism is' as Lt Danger said, is functionally impossible, we all bring our own context as well as knowledge of the artist and the metatext of other works, including other works by the same artist. Roth posted:Right, but at that point there's just not much interesting conversation to be had I think. I'm not sure why that's a bad thing though? Honestly, that's kind of what I'm hoping for, is to have my point of view acknowledged without being dismissed, and it's very frustrating that with these specific films by this one film-maker, that that seems to be impossible unless that point of view is unabashed praise, otherwise you're a monster who hates artistic freedom.
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Feb 5, 2021 21:24
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STAC Goat posted:If anything it actually struck me odd to assume that she just hosed off for Earth and never flew back to visit for 30 years. Maybe they're bringing her in line the comics where she's a terrible person yet loved by the populace at large E whoops broke the spoiler block lol
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Feb 5, 2021 21:25
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Gaz-L posted:
 Also, hope we get a Silver Surfer movie in the near future.
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Feb 5, 2021 21:29
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I want one of those tv filling in the blank episodes where like Fury hits the beeper when the Battle of New York starts but it takes Carol an hour to get across space so by the time she gets there the Avengers are all eating shawarma so they never meet her. Or like Carol has a huge falling out with SWORD/SHIELD when they captured a Kree and decided to do experimentations on him to make their agents immortal. It would be crazy if they did something like Monica and Carol had a huge falling out because Monica helped spearhead the TAHITI project to save her mom and Carol objected to it which Monica saw as hypocritical or something. STAC Goat fucked around with this message at 21:32 on Feb 5, 2021 |
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Feb 5, 2021 21:30
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Gaz-L posted:I'm not sure why that's a bad thing though? Honestly, that's kind of what I'm hoping for, is to have my point of view acknowledged without being dismissed, and it's very frustrating that with these specific films by this one film-maker, that that seems to be impossible unless that point of view is unabashed praise, otherwise you're a monster who hates artistic freedom. That's definitely not a one sided issue. There's plenty of posters in this thread, and outside of it, that sign off on claims that Snyder fans are deluded cultists drinking the kool-aid and only criticize the MCU in bad faith.
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Feb 5, 2021 21:31
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STAC Goat posted:That part of the episode did bring up the part I had kind of glossed over that
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Feb 5, 2021 21:33
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STAC Goat posted:I want one of those tv filling in the blank episodes where like Fury hits the beeper when the Battle of New York starts but it takes Carol an hour to get across space so by the time she gets there the Avengers are all eating shawarma so they never meet her. Or like Carol has a huge falling out with SWORD/SHIELD when they captured a Kree and decided to do experimentations on him to make their agents immortal. Fury hits the panic button in every film, just that by the time Carol gets there, the crisis is over. "Sorry! I really thought a guy with a bow and arrow wouldn't be able to help. My bad."
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Feb 5, 2021 21:34
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Roth posted:That's definitely not a one sided issue. There's plenty of posters in this thread, and outside of it, that sign off on claims that Snyder fans are deluded cultists drinking the kool-aid and only criticize the MCU in bad faith. There's literally a conspiracy theory that many of them adhere to, though?
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Feb 5, 2021 21:40
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STAC Goat posted:I want one of those tv filling in the blank episodes where like Fury hits the beeper when the Battle of New York starts but it takes Carol an hour to get across space so by the time she gets there the Avengers are all eating shawarma so they never meet her. Or like Carol has a huge falling out with SWORD/SHIELD when they captured a Kree and decided to do experimentations on him to make their agents immortal. I want to see a show with Fury and Maria contemporaneously starting up shield and sword, both knowing what they know from CM1, with everyone thinking they're completely batshit, and the whole thing is being overseen by hydra site fucked around with this message at 21:43 on Feb 5, 2021 |
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Feb 5, 2021 21:41
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