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Jaeluni Asjil posted:https://israelitacticalkravmaga.com/ Were the police who killed George Floyd trained by the Israeli security services? I thought not? I was going by this: https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-did-israeli-secret-service-teach-floyd-police-to-kneel-on-neck
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Feb 7, 2021 00:39
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therattle posted:Were the police who killed George Floyd trained by the Israeli security services? I thought not? I was going by this: Potentially 'former' israeli secret service who trained people via the Brooklyn based school I linked to. Obviously we can't prove EXACTLY which persons did the training. From Times Of Israel showing the tactic in use by IDF on a Palestinian. The quote in the factcheck link you posted by Mickey Rosenfield specifies 'police' which IMHO is being a little disingenuous.  source: https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-soldier-filmed-kneeling-on-palestinian-protesters-neck-during-arrest/ Jaeluni Asjil fucked around with this message at 00:46 on Feb 7, 2021 |
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Feb 7, 2021 00:41
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Jaeluni Asjil posted:There were 60+ saves in the web archive last June and they have ALL disappeared. That'll definitely help the tinfoil hattery. Though i suppose that's also the benefit, point out actual conspiracies and they accuse you of believing the fake ones. Marmaduke! posted:It's good, very drinkable! Funny that apparently they're only making and selling it to get some cashflow while their whiskey ages. Good! I did get the impression it was perhaps not a thing they made all of the time. I don't know why because I think it's very nice as those things go.
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Feb 7, 2021 00:47
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Jaeluni Asjil posted:Potentially 'former' israeli secret service who trained people via the Brooklyn based school I linked to. Did they train the police who killed Floyd? I haven’t seen evidence of that. Maybe I missed it?
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Feb 7, 2021 00:48
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"Ok yes so we know they trained cops in general and use the technique themselves and the connection illustrates the thread of brutality in racial persecution occuring all over the world but we can't prove that the specific cop learned it there so actually you're a hitler and that's the real point" is definitely the argumentation style I've come to expect.
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Feb 7, 2021 00:50
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idk as an american the whole “oh israeli army dudes trained some cops” seems like a wild red herring if you want to discuss police violence in america.
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Feb 7, 2021 00:52
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therattle posted:Did they train the police who killed Floyd? I haven’t seen evidence of that. Maybe I missed it? Christ you're being a pedantic oval office
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Feb 7, 2021 00:55
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OwlFancier posted:That'll definitely help the tinfoil hattery. Though i suppose that's also the benefit, point out actual conspiracies and they accuse you of believing the fake ones. Are you saying I'm wearing a tinfoil hat? Things don't normally disappear from the webarchive as I use it quite a lot.
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Feb 7, 2021 00:56
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OwlFancier posted:"Ok yes so we know they trained cops in general and use the technique themselves and the connection illustrates the thread of brutality in racial persecution occuring all over the world but we can't prove that the specific cop learned it there so actually you're a hitler and that's the real point" is definitely the argumentation style I've come to expect. You’re a Hitler? I never went there. I agree with the bolded part of your post - but if you can’t prove it then why say it? And if you can’t prove it (because it’s not true) why defend it? You don’t think American cops have been doing it without training from third parties? And of all the oppressive third parties who use that technique, and have trained US police, why is Israel specifically chosen? quote="Jose" post="512310932"] Christ you're being a pedantic oval office [/quote] You’re just being a oval office. A statement was made linking Israel to George Floyd. Nobody can prove it was true. As bump said, it’s not like you even need to look to external parties to train US police in brutality. You don’t want to think for a second that maybe creating a false linkage may be problematic? The US police are bad enough. What Israel does to Palestinians is bad enough. You don’t need to make either worse by falsely linking them. therattle fucked around with this message at 01:09 on Feb 7, 2021 |
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Feb 7, 2021 00:57
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Jaeluni Asjil posted:Are you saying I'm wearing a tinfoil hat? Things don't normally disappear from the webarchive as I use it quite a lot. No I mean the fact that stuff actually disappears presumably through money or quiet legal pressure is kind of funny when the allegation is that people who say the thing happened are suggesting there is a big jewish conspiracy  Cos you end up having to say "no there is a conspiracy to hide it but not that kind of conspiracy" therattle posted:You’re a Hitler? I never went there. I agree with the bolded part of your post - but if you can’t prove it then why say it? And if you can’t prove it (because it’s not true) why defend it? You don’t think American cops have been doing it without training from third parties? And of all the oppressive third parties who use that technique, and have trained US police, why is Israel specifically chosen? Ah yes sorry, you didn't explicitly say JA was an antisemite you just sort of.. vaguely suggested it was a possibility. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 01:01 on Feb 7, 2021 |
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Feb 7, 2021 00:58
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bajesis you always get one don't you
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Feb 7, 2021 01:00
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bump_fn posted:idk as an american the whole “oh israeli army dudes trained some cops” seems like a wild red herring if you want to discuss police violence in america. I don't think that is really the issue being discussed (or wasn't at the time). Maxine Peake had an article published in The Independent (which they subsequently edited) which made the claim. Rebecca Long-Bailey retweeted it and was subsequently sacked from the shadow cabinet for sharing it because 'anti-semitism' (though it is suspected she was really sacked for supporting the teaching unions but claiming anti-semitism against her was the most 'acceptable' face for the Guardian for example rather than risk getting pro-teaching unions up in arms. The subsequent debate was on whether what Peake had written was anti-semitic or not. She never mentioned Jewish people, just Israeli state activities. And then people went on to show (via the links I just posted) that it was not implausible that the training had taken place. No one can prove whether or not that particular police officer had training from an israeli state security officer whether current or former, the only people who will know - the officer or whoever commissioned the training - are definitely not saying. For sure police violence in America has been ongoing for decades and other techniques are undoubtedly available. Jaeluni Asjil fucked around with this message at 01:39 on Feb 7, 2021 |
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Feb 7, 2021 01:06
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So my "Things you're supposed to know" quiz went down brilliantly, in particular the 11+ questions which caused some absolutely blazing arguments which is the real reason my family does these things, we all love a good row. Are there equivalent exams for younger kids? Because I feel like doing a "7 year olds are supposed to know this" quiz might actually cause a murder if it weren't for social distancing.
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Feb 7, 2021 01:10
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When I was in school there were websites on the BBC to help with studying for exams with questions on them. I don't know if they still do things like that or for a younger age bracket now but I would probably assume so especially with the last year. I don't know if you could find things like early SAT materials if they still do those?
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Feb 7, 2021 01:12
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OwlFancier posted:No I mean the fact that stuff actually disappears presumably through money or quiet legal pressure is kind of funny when the allegation is that people who say the thing happened are suggesting there is a big jewish conspiracy I was genuinely asking JA if what they posted showed the connection, as I may have missed it. Blaming Israel for bad things that happen in the world when it isn’t true makes me a little edgy. I think it’s a bit antisemitic, in an indirect way. But saying that seems to press all kinds of buttons here. Anyway, I’m going to bed so I’ll stop the argument.
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Feb 7, 2021 01:14
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therattle posted:The Israeli security services did not train the police who killed George Floyd. They did not learn that tactic from the Israelis. The American police are quite capable of figuring out how to oppress people all by themselves - they’ve had enough practise. Drawing a link between George Floyd’s murder and Israel where there is none is what? An innocent mistake? A classic antisemitic trope is blaming Jews (or the Jewish state) for all the ills in the world. US police are trained by many other countries but only Israel was mentioned. Curious. To be very loving clear I don't think any police service in the world trains its officers to murder civilians. Call me a bootlicker for that if thou wilt. To merely state facts Israeli security services are defending a settler-colonialist state from aggressive locals, and the majority of US states do combined training between local police and Israeli contractors. Peakes was making an observation, that you are absolutely correct she shouldn't have stated as fact, that Chauvin vs Floyd looks a lot like IDF vs Palestinians. What's "curious" is that Judaism has literally nothing to do with any of the discussion, cannot stress enough that my mates/frankly any jewish person are not an ethnic shield you can use to defend systemic nationalistic wrongdoing.
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Feb 7, 2021 01:16
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Vitamin P posted:To be very loving clear I don't think any police service in the world trains its officers to murder civilians. Call me a bootlicker for that if thou wilt. I... think the US literally does do that, though. They have a whole bunch of programs about poo poo like "warrior" and "sheepdog" mentality where they literally train cops to be basically judge dredd, and that everyone is trying to kill them and that they shouldn't think twice about doing whatever they think is right because they literally are the law. I suppose, if you're very charitable, you could interpret this as being well meaning but the practical effect is that they are literally just training their cops to murder civilians through a combination of perceiving everything as a threat and dehumanizing non-cops.
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Feb 7, 2021 01:22
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Vitamin P posted:To be very loving clear I don't think any police service in the world trains its officers to murder civilians. Call me a bootlicker for that if thou wilt. you might want to read up on the RUC and the B-specials lol
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Feb 7, 2021 01:33
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYwd0Wus5Ik
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Feb 7, 2021 01:40
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OwlFancier posted:I... think the US literally does do that, though. They have a whole bunch of programs about poo poo like "warrior" and "sheepdog" mentality where they literally train cops to be basically judge dredd, and that everyone is trying to kill them and that they shouldn't think twice about doing whatever they think is right because they literally are the law. Right but that cringe poo poo has to be weighed against the legal responsibilities and workplace guidelines US cops nominally, and let's be real broadly, have to follow, ACAB etc but I'm 100% certain that a random group empowered with US cop powers and no accountability would behave significantly worse than the current US cops do, and given that cops tend to be authoritarian right-wing bullies that suggests the accountability measures are doing something positive.
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Feb 7, 2021 01:41
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therattle posted:A statement was made linking Israel to George Floyd. Nobody can prove it was true. https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-...r-a9583206.html quote:Born in Bolton to a lorry driver father and care worker mother, Peake is strident and expressive; if religion wasn’t anathema to her, she’d be perfect in the pulpit. “Systemic racism is a global issue,” she adds. “The tactics used by the police in America, kneeling on George Floyd’s neck, that was learnt from seminars with Israeli secret services.” (A spokesperson for the Israeli police has denied this, stating that “there is no tactic or protocol that calls to put pressure on the neck or airway”.) On a point of technicality, she says 'the tactics used by the police in America.' As this article was creating a storm, a self-defence training academy in NY was literally boasting about having a former mossad agent teaching Krav Maga (the fighting techniques taught to the Israeli Security Services) to the NYPD. One of the images specifically showed someone kneeling on another person's neck. Now the specific force that murdered George Floyd may not have been directly trained by Israelis. But the point of that paragraph was not to get hung up on the specific chain of training that led to officers in the US using that technique, nor was it to blame Israel for police violence. Among martial arts afficionados, Krav Maga is almost a meme in terms of it's functional effectiveness. It is a fighting technique designed for military self defence rather than pankration or self defence, and as such encourages a wide range of techniques such as eye gouges, targetting dudes nuts, and the neck lean if that's the most effective way of getting the job done. It is a notoriously hardcore style, and completely inappropriate to be using outside of a warzone, let alone on the apprehension of a possible suspect of a nonviolent crime. It would be like British Army officers advising the Met to use white phosphorous to break up extinction rebellion protests (please god don't lathe this). But the accusation of antisemitism is being used to completely disregard the rest of the valid points she's making about capitalism and police brutality. I also recall at the time there being a discussion about the difference between the Israeli Security Service (which all israeli kids have to do national service in) and the Israeli Secret Service, and the fact that archived versions of the interview use one and not the other. Also the fact that the journo retroactively added a statement from the Israeli police, a separate organisation. Peake wasn't saying "Jews were to blame," she was saying "The police killed George Floyd with an incredibly violent technique, and maybe we should look at the system that allowed that to happen." But it all comes down to the intent with which someone reads that paragraph. It could be read as antisemitism. It could equally be deconstructed to say it's not, with a little investigation. But that hardly matters, because someone primed to read it as antisemitic is going to read that interpretation over any other. And the problem is that an actress who is correct overall about a Krav Maga technique being used to kill George Floyd is not only tarred with the antisemitism brush, it's that her mistake in not using the most precise wording in expressing that idea is then used to sack a sitting MP from her front bench position because that MP liked the article. You ask why Israel? Because if the martial art technique of any other country had been involved, it wouldn't have gotten the attention of the centrist journos still wanking themselves raw over their victory over the left. Bobby Deluxe fucked around with this message at 01:47 on Feb 7, 2021 |
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Feb 7, 2021 01:41
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Vitamin P posted:Right but that cringe poo poo has to be weighed against the legal responsibilities and workplace guidelines US cops nominally, and let's be real broadly, have to follow, ACAB etc but I'm 100% certain that a random group empowered with US cop powers and no accountability would behave significantly worse than the current US cops do, and given that cops tend to be authoritarian right-wing bullies that suggests the accountability measures are doing something positive. I do not see any reason to believe that.
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Feb 7, 2021 01:45
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Vitamin P posted:To be very loving clear I don't think any police service in the world trains its officers to murder civilians.
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Feb 7, 2021 01:48
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It's time to admit that Tony Blair is an extraordinary talented politician.
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Feb 7, 2021 02:15
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Bobby Deluxe posted:They give them guns and tell them to shoot on sight, what exactly do you think that is for? What country are you talking about?
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Feb 7, 2021 02:18
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so, uh... https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/feb/06/boris-johnson-planning-nhs-england-overhaul-leaked-paper-shows quote:Boris Johnson is planning a radical overhaul of NHS England, as he reverses controversial privatisation policies introduced by David Cameron, a leaked document suggests. bojo is....saving the NHS??? 
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Feb 7, 2021 02:20
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As someone noted earlier that could just mean giving the health secretary control over who gets the pork barrel contracts rather than not using them, but yeah loving lmao if the tories actually somehow un-privatize the NHS. Also loving LMBO at the labour response: quote:The shadow health secretary, Jonathan Ashworth, said that reducing the role of privatisation in the NHS was very important, but that the reforms must also improve patient outcomes and reduce waiting times for treatment. I dunno that sounds like doing something to me, have you considered not doing anything??? OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 02:24 on Feb 7, 2021 |
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Feb 7, 2021 02:22
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keir is such an obsolete official opposition that it's caused him a veritable epiphany maybe
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Feb 7, 2021 02:23
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A big flaming stink posted:so, uh... can't say I had that on my 2021 bingo card.
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Feb 7, 2021 02:29
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A big flaming stink posted:so, uh... In the End of History days the NHS was just something to extract profit from to help the rich, the pandemic has shown that a functional health service can reduce potentially much bigger economic hits to the rich from being so severe. There's nothing moral happening here, it's just that the previous extractive immorality has been shown by events to be less profitable than other potential extractive immoralities.
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Feb 7, 2021 02:34
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Yeah, I'm not expecting more from this than the obvious "Tories realize living people make Number Go Up more effectively than dead people".
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Feb 7, 2021 03:04
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I mean we all hated "something must be done; this is something, therefore we must do it" so really we should be grateful Starmer is taking the opposite approach
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Feb 7, 2021 03:16
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he is a verruca
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Feb 7, 2021 03:18
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Still loving funny that the tories are probably going to outflank Labour from the left. While Labour just makes a giant effigy to Tony Blair and wanks themselves into a coma over it.
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Feb 7, 2021 03:18
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Someone is posting David Baddiel's new book excerpts and... https://twitter.com/TKispeter/status/1358194326409535489?s=19 Is David trying to say Jewish people are underrepresented in film? Because... Buddy, c'mon.
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Feb 7, 2021 03:50
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I think he is trying to suggest that it is OK to get a non jewish person to play a jewish person in film, and that this is a thing that is not accepted with literally any other minority in the world. Except he then gives the example of it literally being OK with gay characters and straight actors, and then goes on to say "but there was a conversation about it" Basically he is asserting a thing, immediately disproving the thing he asserted, and then saying "yeah but they talked about it so the thing is still true" I am left wondering why the guy who did a football song a thousand years ago is still relevant? OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 03:57 on Feb 7, 2021 |
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Feb 7, 2021 03:54
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This is where we are: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gld6Cy_uaHU caution: melodic doomy death metal. And this is what we need: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFbhFZ6Vx80 Jaeluni Asjil fucked around with this message at 04:22 on Feb 7, 2021 |
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Feb 7, 2021 04:10
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In that Baddiel thread there's an except where he says that people roasting him for doing blackface are antisemites. Powerful poo poo
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Feb 7, 2021 04:14
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Failed Imagineer posted:In that Baddiel thread there's an except where he says that people rotating him for doing blackface are antisemites. Powerful poo poo I like how in that passage he doesn't use the phrase "blackface" but rather "makeup",nor did he mention the pineapple on his head. He also said he apologised which he didn't.
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Feb 7, 2021 04:20
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Lol the ukmt has picked up its own lil ben.
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Feb 7, 2021 04:27
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