|
Seriously though CSPAMers can come and complain about this thread after they've purged all the genocide deniers from the CSPAM thread (this will never happen)
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2021 06:06
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 30, 2024 08:24 |
|
|
Anyone know a good primer on how the great firewall works? There clearly are Chinese folks on the main internet so it’s not totally segregated off so it can’t be incredibly hard to circumvent but obviously CCP is probably pretty sophisticated at the whole surveillance and censorship thing. Do special economic zones have regular internet while interior regions get isolated to a different more controlled network?
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2021 06:18
|
|
|
They don't release details. It's not very good filtering, randomly sites will work for a while or you'll be able to access blocked materials on your phone but not a computer. But they don't block the entire internet, they block individual sites or groups of them. If you want to go to a blocked site you need a VPN. For the most part PRC citizens are uninterested in non-China internet sites so there's not a lot of demand to get around the filters.
Grand Fromage fucked around with this message at 06:25 on Feb 8, 2021 |
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2021 06:22
|
|
|
Back when I was in China in 2008 it was very much blanket banning of the big Western news sources, wikipedia, human right pages, and keywords getting the page blocked after a few seconds. You could occasionally tell one of their operations would 404 you if something looked bad to them, though those instances were rare. It's pretty much the same, but their ISPs pre-surf your pages so now you almost never see verboten content.
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2021 06:25
|
|
|
There's also a lot of stuff that isn't technically blocked, but if it uses a Google captcha or something it's inaccessible. Sometimes the blocks are more granular, last I lived there they blocked the Chinese language Wikipedia but English still worked.
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2021 06:26
|
|
|
So not really much better than a school network that any VPN service or tor can circumvent?
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2021 06:30
|
|
|
Terrorism? Not a fan. China? Oh, Im all about that. Big fan.
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2021 06:31
|
|
|
Yeah, it's not super secure. It's enough to block casual attempts to see what they don't want you to see, and it is a bit tricky to get a VPN if you're already in China. Also they're illegal, though I've never heard of anyone getting in trouble for using one. Hosting or distributing one is a real bad idea. As a foreign citizen they don't really give a poo poo if you use a VPN to get to your gmail or whatever.
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2021 06:33
|
|
|
SpaceSDoorGunner posted:So not really much better than a school network that any VPN service or tor can circumvent? yes/no. Technically VPNs are illegal but they have them anyway or else no one could do business. Connections to any given VPN can be pretty random. The same with end to end encryption apps like whatsapp. They do work but you will want to have an alternate. Aside from the filters there are also an army of meat bags going through everything to block sites, delete posts, block words and black bagging people.
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2021 06:52
|
|
|
Fojar38 posted:What would even be an act of terrorism in this context? We're dealing with a government that considers acknowledging objective reality to be terrorism. Are you seriously asking this? Terrorism is politically motivated violence with a civilian target that is not directly responsible/connected to the political issue the person is acting against. States can do terrorism, dudes can do terrorism, there's a lot of terrorism. 'We're dealing with a government that considers acknowledging blahblahblah' it doesn't loving matter dont do terrorism Jesus Christ. It doesn't even work half the time unless your goals are dnd chaotic evil and you wanna get stuff messed up for its own sake.
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2021 07:11
|
|
|
BrainDance posted:Are you seriously asking this? Yes, because one of the worst impacts on the world from the War on Terror is that every lovely autocrat on the planet justifies locking up and oppressing whoever they want as long as they accuse them of "terrorism," a label that has been kept intentionally broad for that very reason. You and I agree that the label of "terrorism" should be very narrowly defined but unfortunately the CCP and other oppressive regimes disagree. Fojar38 fucked around with this message at 07:18 on Feb 8, 2021 |
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2021 07:15
|
|
|
Fojar38 posted:Yes, because one of the worst impacts on the world from the War on Terror is that every lovely autocrat on the planet justifies locking up and oppressing whoever they want as long as they accuse them of "terrorism," a label that has been kept intentionally broad for that very reason. Ok, hot take then, attacking Han Chinese people for their tangential relationship to the party is totally terrorism by any definition of the word, before or after the war on terror, and you shouldn't do it or justify it regardless of what the party does.
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2021 07:22
|
|
|
the firewall poo poo is deep packet inspection, either a big ol cisco contract or more realistically a simulacrum of a big ol cisco contract handed out to a state company. targets are almost surely based off of ml models cuz you can do em chabuduo and it works gangbusters for finding similarities between sites so you can ban the actual scammers and pirates and poo poo who spam new domains and servers real fast (actual free speech poo poo is much easier to ban what with the goodfaithness). you should expect deterministically-stochastic behavior. deterministic but unpredictable, like mathematical-physical chaos the peeps who really know this ml poo poo, prc national or not, dont wanna work on this poo poo either lol like every other ml product they mix in hardcoded rules bob dobbs is dead fucked around with this message at 07:53 on Feb 8, 2021 |
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2021 07:38
|
|
|
BrainDance posted:Ok, hot take then, attacking Han Chinese people for their tangential relationship to the party is totally terrorism by any definition of the word, before or after the war on terror, and you shouldn't do it or justify it regardless of what the party does. there is no difference between organized crime and statehood except legitimacy kind of a problem if you're a state turning illegitimate
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2021 07:42
|
|
|
gently caress I really want hot pot all the sudden.
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2021 07:44
|
|
|
Dandywalken posted:Terrorism? Not a fan. I am not sure if I believe you.
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2021 08:50
|
|
|
If you're in Hong Kong and subscribe to China Mobile for your phone provider (lots of mainlanders do this because it is familiar and also cheap), then certain sites will automatically redirect to the .cn page if there is one, or be unable to access if your phone language is set to simplified Chinese.
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2021 11:27
|
|
|
Grand Fromage posted:There's also a lot of stuff that isn't technically blocked, but if it uses a Google captcha or something it's inaccessible. Cool that makes my website contact form even more secure
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2021 14:03
|
|
|
the CCP decided there was terrorism in Xinjiang moments after 9/11 when they knew they could use it as a pretext to eliminate Uighur culture. it was incredibly obvious at the time and entirely predictable that the repression would lead to unrest, which would lead to greater repression, which is exactly what happened
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2021 14:04
|
|
|
BrainDance posted:Are you seriously asking this? So other than the "Terrorism" what do you want or expect Uighurs to do? Will calling them Freedom Fighters change anything for you? Is your problem the rules of engagement? If it only works half the time those are very good odds, the best they have seen for a long time. They can't vote, or pray, or speak to the outside world, or to each other, or eat the food they want, or reproduce, or leave. It's genocide with an extremely high probability they will get annihilated. If they don't have any other possible outlet or agency guess what, there is going to be the "Terrorism". If going down fighting as a final gently caress you is the best they got then so be it. I am not going to wag my "Terrorism Bad" finger and tsk tsk the last quantum of agency they have.
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2021 15:08
|
|
|
oohhboy posted:Unironicaly defending terrorism You don't gotta do scare quotes for "terrorism" here, we're talking about an incident where 31 civilians were killed randomly for a political goal. Whether you wanna defend it or not (and holy poo poo you do, you're actually defending a terror attack against random Chinese people, because of the party. How revealing is that), just semantically, that's what terrorism is. It's as much terrorism as, like, the Oklahoma City bombing. And right, they should fight back, probably against the state that's oppressing them, not doing terrorism and murdering unrelated people to send a message. How exactly they do that, that's the problem with states, not many good options. But literal terrorism is definitely not one of the good options, probably one of the worst.
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2021 15:48
|
|
|
I'm intrigued that we've moved on from 'armchair general' to 'armchair terrorist' territory.
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2021 16:12
|
|
|
"Not many good options". How about no options. Is the best you got is to do nothing? Tell me what options they have? I wish they had so many options they don't know what to pick. I am not going to get on a soap box and moralise or condemn them to forgo their last speck of agency they have, to fight back with all their might. It's not a matter of definition, that is immaterial to them. The only thing I wish is that they be more selective. Surely you have heard one man's terrorist is another's Freedom Fighter? Where is that line for you? When do they get to fight back? never as long as someone labels it terrorism? It's funny that CCP propaganda always goes back to that one incident to justify everything much like you are. They don't give a poo poo if there was an inciting incident. They would have simply labelled something else as "Terrorism" and spin the narrative as they pleased. What is the point of litigating that when there is the now. Jeoh posted:I'm intrigued that we've moved on from 'armchair general' to 'armchair terrorist' territory. If you have a cheerful Tom Clancy book you would like to discuss I am all ears.
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2021 16:25
|
|
|
"What about Oklahoma City bombing". As if they are comparable. Also "And right, they should fight back, probably against the state that's oppressing them". What is that? It's yes or no, not maybe when I feel like it.
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2021 16:28
|
|
|
Hey, 70 new posts, I wonder what’s going on... Well, poo poo
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2021 16:31
|
|
|
if you repress people and make them unable to air their just grievances, it's predictable that it will blow up at some point. that doesn't make it right, but is just another reason why the repression was wrong
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2021 16:34
|
|
|
The unfortunate problem that the CCP are doing is conflating any dissent with outright terrorism. That's how you end up with a million people in "vocational schools" even though there's only half a dozen terrorist incidents by ETIM. You'll never have a perfect resistance side, especially if they're Islamic terrorists. The Uyghur people are unfortunately caught between a rock and a hard place when it comes down to it.
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2021 16:43
|
|
|
oohhboy posted:"Not many good options". How about no options. Is the best you got is to do nothing? Tell me what options they have? I wish they had so many options they don't know what to pick. I am not going to get on a soap box and moralise or condemn them to forgo their last speck of agency they have, to fight back with all their might. It's not a matter of definition, that is immaterial to them. The only thing I wish is that they be more selective. Surely you have heard one man's terrorist is another's Freedom Fighter? Where is that line for you? When do they get to fight back? never as long as someone labels it terrorism? If they're going to murder people, the least they could do is target CCP members and security officials that are somewhat responsible for the current condition of Xinjiang, rather than whatever random Han Chinese civilians that have the unfortunate luck of being nearby on the day of the knives. I can't believe people have to explain to you why it's bad to kill people based solely on their ethnicity. Other options include continuing to send evidence and testimony to the independent press and outside groups, because there's a growing sentiment in Xinjiang and China that foreign press coverage has prompted the CCP to treat detainees better, or with more transparency. Yes the CCP also defines growing a beard as an act of terrorism, but nobody in this thread is suggesting that beards will defeat the CCP. We're talking about politically-motivated violence.
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2021 19:52
|
|
|
*Cough* "The only thing I wish is that they be more selective.". You clearly misunderstand the point I am trying to make. It is not that I want them to kill random civilians or that I don't get killing them is bad and that you're special to explain this to me. What I am pointing out is the absurdity of you telling them how to conduct their warfare under such conditions, is effectively telling them not to fight at all. If their goal is to expel the CCP then any action they take is "Terrorism" thus would make you uncomfortable. I don't doubt for a lot of them it's simply a gently caress you to the CCP thus any Han target will do. It's their choice and I understand why they have taken it. If instead of knives they had AKs and C4, operating out of bushes like a typical guerilla would this make you feel better? Guess what, that is a choice they don't have. I am sorry pal if you have swallowed the idea peaceful protests is magic, point to Martin Luther King while ignoring the pointy sticks that protected the movement. Guess what Antifa is. I am sure the HKers that were labelled "Rioters" will thank you for your service. Why do you think it is part of the 5 demands and Burn With Us gained that much traction. They have been dripping out for years, giving them their testimony, same as Tibet. The idea that they are treating them better because of press coverage, knowing who they are and how they operate is a sick joke. When have they ever buckled to press pressure on anything, seriously, tell me. On the BBC, live, one of their ambassadors when confronted with hard evidence doubled down on lies. Openly threatened every single Canadian in HK in an attempt to force Canada to hand over Meng. They aren't the Soviet Union that we had some shared values, had some agreed upon rules, thrown off the yoke of Stalinism, it is the opposite, we share nothing and they embrace Maoism. Serious loving  BS.
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2021 22:41
|
|
|
I think a point that has been overlooked, is that there is no wave of terrorism being perpetrated by a group of organized terrorists with an agenda to free their people going on. There have been a few incidents of angry oppressed people getting angry at their oppression and acting out. (This is extremely simplified and callous, so I apologize.) But the point is, the CCP used these incidents to cry "Terrrorism", and because the people who did them were muslim the rest of the world shrugged and agreed. The CCP then used this as a flimsy excuse and justification for further, harsher and systematic genocide, that again the world turns a blind eye to. The Genocide is the bad thing, not the odd angry person being genocided lashing out. As to what the genocided should do? I have no idea. Stabbing 31 random Han people isn't the right idea, but neither is standing by politely as you sister is raped, your father is shot, you uncle dragged off with a black bag on his head to work in the factories on the other side of the country and you mum has to marry a CCP official and give him babies that will now have a more harmonious bloodline. But as to what "we" in our 1st world countries should do? We should be putting as much pressure on our governments/corporations/organizations to be putting as much pressure as they can on the CCP over the genocide. I know that's pissweak, and reeks of "decorum", but the point is that the problem is not the odd angry man going stabby because his entire way of life is being bulldozed in front of him whilst he watches his children die, but the Genocide itself. And we should not let the Genociders point to these few justifiably angry people acting out as an excuse for their Genocide in any way at all.
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2021 23:19
|
|
|
Here's my hot take engaging in violence is extremely stupid if you aren't already pretty sure you'll win (be that actually winning the fight or losing bravely to get the public on side). Since they are't going to win all this "they should do a terrorism that'll teach Pooh" is just posters venting their anger and helplessness.
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2021 23:45
|
|
|
"Why did these Jewish people kill German civilains? Violence is bad unless unless they kill a Nazi soldier, otherwise they should go peacefully to the camps" Does that sound sensible? Because that's basically what you are proposing.
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2021 23:49
|
|
|
SpaceSDoorGunner posted:So not really much better than a school network that any VPN service or tor can circumvent? This is the worst false equivalency I've ever heard
|
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2021 23:52
|
|
|
je1 healthcare posted:If they're going to murder people, the least they could do is target CCP members and security officials that are somewhat responsible for the current condition of Xinjiang, rather than whatever random Han Chinese civilians that have the unfortunate luck of being nearby on the day of the knives. I can't believe people have to explain to you why it's bad to kill people based solely on their ethnicity. if you are being genocided, it's actually fine to fight back. Terrorism against civilians isn't the nicest thing to do, and it probably isn't efficient or even helpful to the cause, but you and I aren't there ain't we. and lol if you think the Han Chinese in Xinjiang can't see what is going on with their Muslism neighbors. You know how Germans who didn't resist were all guilty, and indeed Germans must, to this day, carry that collective guilt as not to devalue the memory of the holocaust as not to devalue the moral basis for their modern state? You know who disagrees with this? Only literal neo nazis. Guess what, the exact same thing applies. It doesn't matter if it is too much to ask, Han Chinese in Xinjiang are all guilty. We will all be in agreement of this in a couple of decades. We don't get to judge someone whose entire ethnicity is in the process of being killed off by the state. It's resistance. We might prefer a more clean and noble resistance. But then, we are also doing jack poo poo here, when an entire people is literally ground into dust. I am sorry if this is harsh, but this isn't the first time we had some years to think about it Haramstufe Rot fucked around with this message at 00:01 on Feb 9, 2021 |
|
#
?
Feb 8, 2021 23:58
|
|
|
oh and people insinuating that Uighurs would be better off not fighting back because they end up being genocided (quicker): how the gently caress do you look into the mirror? or is ww2 somehow not taught in schools anymore? jesus loving christ
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2021 00:04
|
|
|
^^^loving this^^^ I guess trying to explain it without being harsh is ineffective.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2021 00:21
|
|
|
Overall, I'm just really disappointed in humanity as a whole. We look back at the holocaust and see it was a life lesson on what not to do, and what not to ignore. Now we see what humanity actually does, which is... just ignore it. 
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2021 00:44
|
|
|
There's an entire genre of post war literature across multiple countries on that exact question. There's an entire history involving countries and peoples of perpetrators, victims, and bystanders and their coming to terms with what is right and what isn't. If you feel any need in your heart to debate the finer point of genocide guilt and whether genocide victims may perhaps be just a little bit at fault with all their resisting, just go and read any of the many, many books by people who for example won Nobel prizes in literature or something. Or grab an academic paper like one which literally has this loving question in the title. If you can't read complicated books about people who are probably dead, watch a Hollywood movie on the topic. There's more than a couple. If you still, after such scholastic inquiry, believe that it's the Uighurs job to ensure their resistance is palpable, clean and targeted at most towards "involved" police officers, and that's going to be your contribution to this extremely complex topic, then I am sorry to say, you may just be a fascist and also a dumb gently caress.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2021 00:44
|
|
|
If people fight back, good. Calling for genocide victims to form a doomed resistance army so we, people who are angry at the newspaper, get the satifaction of CCP heads rolling is fairly tasteless.
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2021 00:52
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 30, 2024 08:24 |
|
|
no it's about the tears we are supposed to cry for innocent bystanders when Uighur terrorists don't surgically JDAM the loving police station. they bring this 1952 weak poo poo opinion up in here what you think is going to happen We, us, don't get to ask the Uighur resistance for anything. We, us, only get to have the minimum decency of being personally insulted that any fash government attempts to genocide people loving again and yes, we should also call out any prebiotic broth of fascist pseudo-arguments at least if we had the benefit of any standard education in the last fifty years. My primary school teacher still had that number tattooed on this arm. yeah I'm gonna rapidfill pages itt with meltdown after meltdown if necessary until mods mash that probate button loving test me bbro
|
|
#
?
Feb 9, 2021 01:20
|
|