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NikkolasKing posted:You'd think nihilism would still be a pretty popular and common thing. I think there was a certain dark wonder in a lot of this conspiracy stuff when it began to get into the mainstream, at least through media. Wow! Some of this stuff really happened. Maybe most of it is bullshit, but perhaps there really is Bigfoot out there, or secret alien contacts. Instead, of course, it became a right-wing media product - the turd at the end of the digestion process.
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Feb 8, 2021 14:11
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NikkolasKing posted:You'd think nihilism would still be a pretty popular and common thing. It's not like the world has gotten better since the 90s. Promethean 1E was pretty nihilistic. Promethean 2E was really softened up. Deviant is pretty nihilistic; it flat out says the life expectancy for a renegade is six months, and here's how to replace dead characters on the regular. Let alone the whole 'Web of Pain' 'lol you destroyed your conspiracy so here's a new one trying to capture you probably run by your wife' mechanic.
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Feb 8, 2021 16:00
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What was changed between Promethean 1e and 2e to soften it up? The stuff about needing to create new Prometheans to achieve your own great work? I think that was a change that was made at some point but I can't remember when that was implemented.
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Feb 8, 2021 16:05
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FirstAidKite posted:What was changed between Promethean 1e and 2e to soften it up? The stuff about needing to create new Prometheans to achieve your own great work? I think that was a change that was made at some point but I can't remember when that was implemented. As far as I remember, they just changed the Disquiet and Wasteland rules to be more playable (and by extension less harsh) and spent a bit more time talking about how becoming human is something you can accomplish so keep your chin up. Promethean 1e was already pretty optimistic despite the constant misery, 2e didn't need to change much.
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Feb 8, 2021 16:18
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Nessus posted:Well yeah, it absolutely is, to the point where it's trite and mainstream now. At least for a certain flavor of nihilism; it's not exactly philosophically rigorous. You can find abundant examples here on the Something Awful forums, if you care to look! I mean, a lot of it was that from the start. Antisemitic conspiracy theories weren’t new in the 90s, either, and made up a lot of the core background radiation, just as kids we didn’t realize what “reptoids” actually meant.
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Feb 8, 2021 16:26
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Lurks With Wolves posted:As far as I remember, they just changed the Disquiet and Wasteland rules to be more playable (and by extension less harsh) and spent a bit more time talking about how becoming human is something you can accomplish so keep your chin up. Promethean 1e was already pretty optimistic despite the constant misery, 2e didn't need to change much. They majorly toned down Disquiet and Wasteland, and instead of the 'become human' concept being very nebulous and almost mythical, they laid out a specific quest chain to turn human.
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Feb 8, 2021 16:40
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I really like plotting out your journey to being human from beginning to end. Having a defined series of steps really lets the GM know what kind of story you want to have in this deeply personal game.
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Feb 8, 2021 18:25
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What was toned down about the Wasteland and Disquiet? I only have 2e and have only ever read 2e so idk what they were like before then.
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Feb 8, 2021 18:28
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TheCenturion posted:They majorly toned down Disquiet and Wasteland, and instead of the 'become human' concept being very nebulous and almost mythical, they laid out a specific quest chain to turn human. I definitely never got the sense that the New Dawn in 1e was almost mythical. Storytelling advice for how to structure and model the process being vague and not super helpful, sure, I can see that. But the books still communicated to me pretty clearly that this wasn't Vampire's Golconda, a vaguely defined rumor that's rarely entertained as something to be actually achieved and realized in play, but rather the actual goal to be played out in a Promethean campaign, not only explicitly possible but an expected eventual outcome for most player character games. Agreed, however, that the Disquiet and Wasteland effects were too harsh in 1e.
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Feb 8, 2021 18:29
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Mors Rattus posted:I mean, a lot of it was that from the start. Antisemitic conspiracy theories weren’t new in the 90s, either, and made up a lot of the core background radiation, just as kids we didn’t realize what “reptoids” actually meant. Isn't the main Reptilian guy baffled that people keep thinking he's talking about jews?
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Feb 8, 2021 20:53
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MonsieurChoc posted:Isn't the main Reptilian guy baffled that people keep thinking he's talking about jews? Yeah, David Icke insists that "reptoids" aren't a stand-in for Jews. IIRC they're mostly a secret European royal lineage, according to him. However, he thinks the Jews are also an evil conspiracy, just a different one. Despite such protestations, though, it makes little practical difference, since it's a lot of the same racist codewords directed at a lot of the usual targets. It's one of those "it literally takes all kinds" thing, like how David Dees believed basically every last conspiracy theory, but he thought people who believe in angels are wackos.* * Of course he was also suffering severe untreated mental illness, but you don't have to have Grade F sadbrains to embrace a bunch of mutually exclusive horseshit.
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Feb 8, 2021 21:10
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I'm mostly sold on CtL but I'm sure somebody in here is the CtL #1 fan and I'd like to hear how they'd talk about/pitch it.
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Feb 8, 2021 21:33
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Yeah I'm gonna go with CyberBloodPunk, inspiration has struck.
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Feb 8, 2021 21:38
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Tulip posted:I'm mostly sold on CtL but I'm sure somebody in here is the CtL #1 fan and I'd like to hear how they'd talk about/pitch it. Also, you don't have a huge power set, but what you do have is world-warpingly powerful within a very tight niche. We're talking, you're never trapped if there's a doorway nearby. You can put a magical scrying lo-jack on someone if you know their name (and it's free if you stole some of their hair, you creep). You can scare someone so bad that their choices in a fight are "cry real hard" and "run" and if you do it well enough, it's free the next time you see them. You can make friends with talking geese and help them get revenge on gangs of sentient watermelons for stealing turf. You can invade dreams to help children sleep better at night, which ends up being incidental to the reason you jumped into their heads in the first place (hunting down the heart of a mostly-soulless monster chasing you, before it finds you first). All this and more, in a game that narrowly avoids having the most obnoxious implementation of Conditions in the Chronicles of Darkness (Geist 2e and WtF 2e exist and shield it from being the worst, but it sure puts up a good fight). It is a game that kicks rear end to play in spite of the rules pitfalls one would expect out of CoD. It owns!
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Feb 8, 2021 22:38
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Hell yeah, thanks! So the thing about face stealers. On a scale ranging from "basically everybody ignores it because it's not fun or interesting" (sustainable feeding as a vampire) to "the center of nearly any campaign" (becoming human as a promethean), where does that lie on the fun/interesting/centralness?
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Feb 8, 2021 22:48
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Tulip posted:Hell yeah, thanks! They mostly merit a mention for driving home the fact that one of the base assumptions of the game is that not only did a bad thing happen to you, but the world didn't even notice you were gone, not really so you're really on your own unless and until you can get a nice found family community going with like individuals.
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Feb 8, 2021 22:56
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Chernobyl Peace Prize posted:Changeling: the Lost is a game of trying to overcome collective sadbrains with your similarly-traumatized friends while you navigate a world that is lovely but somehow less lovely than the one you escaped from, while something with your face is out there living your life. If you're lucky, your ST ignores half the rules for how The Hedge works and you go have adventures there when the sads get too heavy out in the normiespace. Unfortunately going dream diving also uses the worst part of the rules in The Hedge. It's honestly my biggest issue with CtL: the dream stuff is all so cool but doing things like screwing with someone or harvesting Glamour is such a pain in the rear end.
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Feb 8, 2021 22:57
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A Renaissance Nerd posted:Unfortunately going dream diving also uses the worst part of the rules in The Hedge. It's honestly my biggest issue with CtL: the dream stuff is all so cool but doing things like screwing with someone or harvesting Glamour is such a pain in the rear end.
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Feb 8, 2021 22:59
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Tulip posted:Hell yeah, thanks! The main "face-stealing" thing in CtL are "fetches", magical constructs identical to your original self that the fae leave behind when they kidnap a human plaything. They may or may not know they're not really you. They may or may not be good friend material, though it's pretty likely a magical monster coming around to tell them they're a simulacrum made out of lint and cardboard won't be taken kindly. Fetches are a great element and source for drama, tragedy and weird ally or antagonist, but it's also entirely possible and easy to just have your character look sadly through a rainstorm at the great life this conjuration made out of yours and walk away like the end of an episode of Incredible Hulk never to bother them again. Fetches are a big but not strictly necessary element to the "reclaim my lost humanity/life" pillar of the game. There's a little subsystem of magic for them if you want to use it.
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Feb 8, 2021 23:04
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Chernobyl Peace Prize posted:Yeah, my ST uses some heavily-modified-so-we-all-could-feel-like-still-playing-the-game alterations of Hedgespinning at large (which dream poo poo leans on heavily), because of things like "by default the Hedge gets a turn every time you take an action" making an IRC-mediated game feel like it was going to take a year to get through a night. Don't forget by default all your dice pools in the dream are penalized by the sleeper's Composure! Good luck getting the exceptional success you need to harvest Glamour when you're under a three die penalty. I'd be interested what modified rules you're using for Hedge and Dream Spinning.
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Feb 8, 2021 23:05
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MonsieurChoc posted:Yeah I'm gonna go with CyberBloodPunk, inspiration has struck. Be sure to look up The World of Future Darkness, if I didn't miss where someone namedropped it: https://medium.com/there-will-be-games/that-time-vampires-were-cyberpunks-25f20f6ea164
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Feb 9, 2021 02:13
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NikkolasKing posted:You'd think nihilism would still be a pretty popular and common thing. It's not like the world has gotten better since the 90s. The 90s were optimistic in the sense that Cold War saber-rattling was over but it was also a decade marked by anxieties that the End of History wasn't coming, the depths of human darkness and evil dragged into the spotlight with genocides and ethnic conflicts on CNN and BBC, increased awareness and anxieties towards climate change, a continuation in force of the commercial globalization and neoliberalism that characterized the 1980s, and millenarianism as the turn of the millennium approached. (This is a highly westernized summary.) This is different from the 00s and 10s, which were characterized by different events (no millenarianism, a far smaller number of genocides broadcast worldwide, the Global War on Terror, the Great Recession, etc.) anddifferent political concerns and landscapes, which gave/gives rise to entirely different attitudes. Nihilism is out, anger is in. "I'm not here to tell you things are bad. Everybody knows they're bad: it's a recession. [...] First you have got to get mad! You've got to say 'I'm a human being, God drat it! My life has value!' [...] I'm as mad as hell and I'm not going to take this anymore!" Which was a seventies film.
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Feb 9, 2021 02:43
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I feel very vindicated by everyone who's having trouble with the dreamweaving and Hedge travel after I ranted so much about how those parts of the book are bad. also on the topic of "Also, you don't have a huge power set, but what you do have is very powerful within a tight niche", the 4 dot level of the Summer Mantle is 'Automatically Succeed on attempts to break through mundane barriers or otherwise deal with inanimate impediments', which means you can bust through walls like Mr. X. I had a character my last Changeling game who basically just terminator'd through obstructions and it was great.
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Feb 9, 2021 02:48
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OH YEAH
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Feb 9, 2021 02:50
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Crasical posted:I feel very vindicated by everyone who's having trouble with the dreamweaving and Hedge travel after I ranted so much about how those parts of the book are bad. The Changeling pacts are terrible too in 2E. They were broken powerful in 1E, but were a lot easier to approach IMNHO. Honestly, while we're litigating CtL 2E. I feel Contracts are poorly written, partly due to ~Conditions~, but also because the purple prose leaked into their mechanics descriptions in a harder way than it usually does in other CoD games. That said, I still feel 2E is a net positive in relation to 1E, as most 2E versions are.
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Feb 9, 2021 02:59
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Pretty cool. So they're in that sweet spot of a gameplay element that works if you need it and works if you don't.
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Feb 9, 2021 03:03
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LatwPIAT posted:The 90s were optimistic in the sense that Cold War saber-rattling was over but it was also a decade marked by anxieties that the End of History wasn't coming, the depths of human darkness and evil dragged into the spotlight with genocides and ethnic conflicts on CNN and BBC, increased awareness and anxieties towards climate change, a continuation in force of the commercial globalization and neoliberalism that characterized the 1980s, and millenarianism as the turn of the millennium approached. (This is a highly westernized summary.) Oh yeah, this is all absolutely Western talk here given the 90s was awful for Japan and Russia and many other countries. But anyway, there was a post in Bloodlines discussing how VTM editions "aged with the audience." 1e was for children, V20 was for adults, etc. Dunno if I agree with that but at the same time I'm less interested in VTM than Mage. Each edition of Mage is so profoundly shaped by a different worldview and it's fascinating to read. Mage 1e and Rev are two very different flavors of cynical and sandwiched in between is hope and wonder. And that anger in the 60s and 70s became the nihilism of the 80s and 90s. Who knows, maybe V6 in 10 years will be as nihilistic as anything in the 90s. Such is life.
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Feb 9, 2021 03:05
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For the true zeitgeist of the 90s, look to the original Conspiracy X RPG. Oh, and Ray Winnegar’s UnderGround.
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Feb 9, 2021 03:31
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The really funny thing about the Dream mechanics in CtL is that a Cahalith can do the same thing with a single roll and a 3 dot gift.
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Feb 9, 2021 05:05
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LatwPIAT posted:The 90s were optimistic in the sense that Cold War saber-rattling was over but it was also a decade marked by anxieties that the End of History wasn't coming, the depths of human darkness and evil dragged into the spotlight with genocides and ethnic conflicts on CNN and BBC, increased awareness and anxieties towards climate change, a continuation in force of the commercial globalization and neoliberalism that characterized the 1980s, and millenarianism as the turn of the millennium approached. (This is a highly westernized summary.) This relationship between optimism, rage, and nihilism is really important to understanding the birth of the punk element in White Wolf games, too. While the sheer shock of the genocides didn't come until later, there was already a seething simmering rage at the globalization and neoliberalism of the Reagan era that created both enormous wealth disparity and flaunted it as moral virtue. It's why the default state of vampire characters in 1E is as newly embraced anarchs - you are on the bottom of a vast, unfeeling mechanism that makes a moral and social virtue out of flaunting and abusing its power over you. Nothing you do matters, there is no hope of fixing it, all you can do is survive and embark on acts of extreme violence not because your life matters, but precisely because it doesn't, and neither does anyone else's. Werewolf, which came out with the thesis of 'hey maybe you actually can take action??' set it very specifically against a backdrop of a final battle in which you would definitely die and almost certainly lose for the same reason - hope is a sucker's game, raw rage is the only thing left. So it's not so much that the change was that nihilism is out and anger is in - it's that the kind of anger has shifted from a kind of suicidal rage that denies the possibility of authentic meaning towards a more deliberate, tempered anger that asserts that if nothing objectively matters, I get to decide what subjectively does.
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Feb 9, 2021 07:06
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midwifecrisis posted:The really funny thing about the Dream mechanics in CtL is that a Cahalith can do the same thing with a single roll and a 3 dot gift. I mean if you really wanna galaxybrain it every epic CtL chronicle that ends with storming arcadia still doesn't get you as far as a newly awakened mage spending one mana to meditate into the astral plane. Tulip posted:Pretty cool. So they're in that sweet spot of a gameplay element that works if you need it and works if you don't. Yeah, that's a good way of putting it IMO. They're something ever player needs to think about a little bit, because they're part of the weird and lovely package that is "was turned into a Changeling," but they can vary from one sentence of backstory to a major NPC or part of a character arc depending player interest.
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Feb 9, 2021 07:19
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Two questions, one that is more objective and the other that is more subjective as I'm getting ready to run my first game and was curious about people's experiences. 1. Does one low-level transformation give a simple one time - 3 XP discount to a Nova Attribute or is it a - 3 XP discount per dot? Basically, I'm under the impression it's more or less a basic Flaw from the older WoD games that gives you one time TRINITY CONTINUUM: ABERRANT PAGE 88 posted:You can choose to take an additional transformation for your nova to reduce the cost of the nova trait (including Quantum): A low-level transformation reduces the trait’s Experience cost by 3. A mid-level transformation reduces the trait’s Experience cost by 6. You cannot have more total transformations than twice your Quantum rating. See Transformation on p. XX for details. 2. Are the benefits of Mega-Attributes impressively powerful and my players crazy for so far three of them making characters with no points in them? I feel like I'm either overestimating their worth and making a bad case to them on the abilities, they are underestimating the utility of them and impact of Scale, or perhaps they have a specialized vision of a character who is based more around a specific power than traditional super-abilities. I think this could end up with too focused, and often not super useful, outcomes in some situations that could get frustrating.
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Feb 9, 2021 08:17
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ZearothK posted:The Changeling pacts are terrible too in 2E. They were broken powerful in 1E, but were a lot easier to approach IMNHO. I think the main problem with 2e pledges is having too little word count. They're too sparse in explanation and example, especially bargains. But fundamentally I believe they're mostly fine. I'd like to see some expansion to them and exploration of stuff like reaching for four- and five-dot Merits with bargains. It really hurts that part of the book that "okay but how do I strike a bargain for like an urban squire and $2,000 a month in exchange for making this chump CEO" is basically boiled down to one vague sentence at the end of a middle paragraph. That said, they might be a tad underwhelming, but I wouldn't call them terrible. However! I certainly would call 1e pledges terrible. poo poo was very obviously busted as hell from the word "go", which my group saw immediately and took advantage of back in the misty past. Point-buy systems for this kind of stuff are almost always laughably bad. quote:Honestly, while we're litigating CtL 2E. I feel Contracts are poorly written, partly due to ~Conditions~, but also because the purple prose leaked into their mechanics descriptions in a harder way than it usually does in other CoD games. That said, I still feel 2E is a net positive in relation to 1E, as most 2E versions are. Yeah, when I went through CtL2 to make my usual cheat sheets, I found a lot of bits and pieces of rules in not-rules places. Sometimes there's a "Special: You must do X to use this Contract" in a power's mechanics block, and sometimes that kind of information is buried in the middle of paragraph two of the often highly metaphorical introductory text for the power. Nothing beats out Geist's Condition problem, though, and I hope nothing ever does because wuuughh. Old Doggy Bastard posted:Two questions, one that is more objective and the other that is more subjective as I'm getting ready to run my first game and was curious about people's experiences. I'm pretty sure it's just a flat discount to one instance of buying a trait. quote:2. Are the benefits of Mega-Attributes impressively powerful and my players crazy for so far three of them making characters with no points in them? I feel like I'm either overestimating their worth and making a bad case to them on the abilities, they are underestimating the utility of them and impact of Scale, or perhaps they have a specialized vision of a character who is based more around a specific power than traditional super-abilities. I think this could end up with too focused, and often not super useful, outcomes in some situations that could get frustrating. It can vary a lot because Scale even in Aberrant is so vague and it's up to the GM to let it shine by providing opportunities, but it can quickly gets very overwhelming to anyone who doesn't have it. On the other hand, it's not terribly concrete, especially the non-Might stuff, whereas a lot of Edges and powers seem more tangible and immediately useful. If you don't even know if they're doing it on purpose, though, step 1 is definitely just "talk to the group" so you can hash out what everyone hopes the game will look like. That Old Tree fucked around with this message at 08:46 on Feb 9, 2021 |
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Feb 9, 2021 08:39
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That Old Tree posted:I think the main problem with 2e pledges is having too little word count. They're too sparse in explanation and example, especially bargains. But fundamentally I believe they're mostly fine. I'd like to see some expansion to them and exploration of stuff like reaching for four- and five-dot Merits with bargains. It really hurts that part of the book that "okay but how do I strike a bargain for like an urban squire and $2,000 a month in exchange for making this chump CEO" is basically boiled down to one vague sentence at the end of a middle paragraph. I vaguely recall the Kickstarter campaign showing off the style guide for writers on CtL2e, and how one of the things writers were advised to do was to avoid detailing edge cases of powers, because every table will play the game differently. Sadly I can't find the preview document anymore to confirm whether that was the case or just something my brain has made up, but I remember the attitude of avoiding detail in the rules shocking me at the time. There was also something about how the book shouldn't have more than about a dozen Conditions, but there'd be a guide for STs on how to make their own Conditions. I found it very weird.
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Feb 9, 2021 09:33
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[That Old Tree posted:If you don't even know if they're doing it on purpose, though, step 1 is definitely just "talk to the group" so you can hash out what everyone hopes the game will look like. Always the best plan! Just wanted to check and see if there was maybe a disconnection between me and the rules, which I'm doing a lot to get more firm on, but that often are the culprit as to why my players seem to go in a whole different direction. I've looked back up the Scale rules to try to explain it in a little more accessible a way to them, one that explains some of the massive benefits, but how I'm also not going to force it on them. . . . . . One situation that I've come into and could also use advice on is I have a character who has taken only the Nova ability of Quantum Agent and the Power Tags to augment it with Duration 3, Independent, and Uncontrolled Power. I can see this as cool, but also some logistical concerns or pitfalls that may have simple solutions to suggest to the player. I'm going to talk to all of them, but want to try and figure out what to ask/suggest/explain to them in order to clear up questions and power out some of the great concepts they've given me. One thing he liked was the idea that using the Duration 3 increasing Power Tag he could boost duration from Rounds to Days, and with Independent and Uncontrolled Power more or less have any one or multiple Quantum Agents acting out in the real world outside his purview operating with loyalty but unbeknownst to him. My biggest concern is that without other powers for him to use as like, himself, or that he has greater agency over, the character could run into the situation where he is at worst Guy Who Summons People Who Do Things without feeling much spotlight. On the other hand, the ideal target here he is going for is man who manifests his deep psychological trauma and complexes into physical form to have a Hellhound, Lilith, Dead Friends, and some other creature act out his own personal fantasies but literally. Done well, it’s like a Pokemon principal and has some good interaction between them as NPCs and himself, but done bad I’m afraid it could easily fall flat — a shame because it is a solid idea. I’ve put his Quantum Agent settings below to get people’s feedback, and any suggestions on some additional utility powers or solid complimentary stuff that could give Dude the Dude some power without taking away focus from his clear concept or making this largely the Summon Stuff as the Storyguide Plays Out Everything game. He’s going for High School edgelord at base before more personal growth, as it’s basically the Breakfast Club, if that helps.
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Feb 9, 2021 09:36
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Old Doggy Bastard posted:I’ve put his Quantum Agent settings below to get people’s feedback, and any suggestions on some additional utility powers or solid complimentary stuff that could give Dude the Dude some power without taking away focus from his clear concept or making this largely the Summon Stuff as the Storyguide Plays Out Everything game. He’s going for High School edgelord at base before more personal growth, as it’s basically the Breakfast Club, if that helps. * Mascot type person who has emotional-adjacent powers, something which is mentally healing and stress relieving. This is distinct from the Social Competent you listed above in my vision because that person appears to be a "medic" while this would be a social glue point, which potentially also has powerful manipulative abilities. * A swarm of tiny quantum agents who allow for area awareness and the retrieval of small objects * Someone who is a deep specialist on something personally consonant for the character, like cooking, IT repair, whatever. You might be able to separate out the "Mental Competent" here somewhat.
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Feb 9, 2021 09:57
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Ooooh, the Cyberpunk oWoD is one where Mikaboshi won and is Demon Emperor. Edit: Now I have to put Oliver Thrace as an NPC somewhere.
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Feb 9, 2021 21:34
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Can someone summon and maintain two Quantum Agent entities, assuming power cost is met?
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Feb 9, 2021 22:28
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Hey C/WoD thread, I'm looking for some edition/system advice. A friend of mine and I were discussing doing a vampire-themed game, but one with a different thematic framing than VtM and VtR tend to lean into that instead goes hard on the idea of Vampires as allegory for class conflict/privilege. So the narrative focus would be less on how becoming an undead monster inherently sucks and you'll inevitably do murders and lose your humanity because you're tragically compelled to by your supernatural nature, and more about how becoming an undead monster is actually materially great, and you'll inevitably do murders and lose your humanity because doing so is massively rewarded and results in extremely positive social feedback. So a game where the drama comes from having power within an unjust system, and seeing if they're willing to rock the boat despite being discouraged from doing so both mechanically and in roleplay. Instead of being a street level punk thing, it'll probably be mostly set in high society/subterfuge contexts. So what do you think would be the best system for this between V5, VtR, and I guess V20, and what kinda tweaks would be appropriate to capture that tone without breaking the entire game? PoorWeather fucked around with this message at 06:43 on Feb 10, 2021 |
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Feb 10, 2021 06:22
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V:tR with the players not just being part of the Invictus, but also fresh childer of powerful, ranking members. Alternatively have them play as Carthians who are being actively recruited by the Invictus for whatever reason.
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Feb 10, 2021 06:31
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