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CoolCab posted:not a ton of fibre in the diets of rich men? I wonder about this a bit. I remember reading that Heian Japanese nobility ate a shockingly bad diet; lots of nice expensive and tasty ingredients, which they would obviously value, but not remotely nutritious, to the point the nutrition deficiencies / diseases caused by them are visible (in their skeletons, or the literature? I forget). I wonder how true that is in most old cultures.
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Feb 8, 2021 16:17
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My favorite new to me idea is that Sumerians came from the flooded valley of the Tigris and Euphrates that is now the Persian gulf at the beginning of the Holocene
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Feb 8, 2021 19:38
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euphronius posted:My favorite new to me idea is that Sumerians came from the flooded valley of the Tigris and Euphrates that is now the Persian gulf at the beginning of the Holocene I mean, it nicely explains the flood story that eventually became noah's ark. The end of the last ice age caused massive ocean level changes. The straight of hormuz used to be coastal land and the arabian peninsula wasn't a peninsula at all. Plus it explains where the sumerians came from, because they're not the same people who lived in the area of Ur prior to that. It's quite possible that some forms of writing are older than we know because all of the records have long since been swallowed by the sea.
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Feb 8, 2021 19:57
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Koramei posted:I wonder about this a bit. I remember reading that Heian Japanese nobility ate a shockingly bad diet; lots of nice expensive and tasty ingredients, which they would obviously value, but not remotely nutritious, to the point the nutrition deficiencies / diseases caused by them are visible (in their skeletons, or the literature? I forget). I wonder how true that is in most old cultures. One of the Japanese holidays has a custom of eating certain kinds of beans that is directly related to the lack of nutrition in certain diets. Forgot what it was tho.
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Feb 8, 2021 20:00
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Is underwater archeology a thing?
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Feb 8, 2021 20:02
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cheetah7071 posted:Is underwater archeology a thing? It sure is https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underwater_archaeology
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Feb 8, 2021 20:24
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cheetah7071 posted:Is underwater archeology a thing? It certainly is! Here are some cool examples. This is also a nice BBC doc if you can find it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6vvBzAvN0w Ancient shipwrecks are also amazing: https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/archaeologists-discover-3600-year-old-14286476 https://www.nationalgeographic.com/culture/2018/10/black-sea-shipwreck-archaeology-map/ I tried to find a good youtube about the mesolithic finds in the North Sea from the lost Doggerland and evidence of the tsunami that hit it, but there's so many amateur documentarists now it's hard to separate the wheat from the chaff. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBfy2_NyBVU So Time Team will do. Note that many docs on this topic tend to conflate the drowning of the land with the tsunami. I'm sure the tsunami didn't help, but it wasn't the cause of the drowning.
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Feb 8, 2021 20:26
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cheetah7071 posted:Is underwater archeology a thing? As posted above it very much is and is super neat. Als fun fact GPR doesn't work where there is heavy amounts of saltwater because the salt fucks it all up. I really want the field to get more neat tools because it has the potential to answer a metric gently caress ton of questions about the peopling of the Americas.
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Feb 8, 2021 20:33
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It’s really funny how mad Christians must have got when those cuneiform tablets started getting translated and oops your entire religion is copied
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Feb 8, 2021 20:36
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euphronius posted:It’s really funny how mad Christians must have got when those cuneiform tablets started getting translated and oops your entire religion is copied What I've learned about political propaganda the last few years says they just went "Uuhmm...it's proof that I was right all along! Yeah that's it! Also at this part where it's broken off, it's supposed to say that people who disagree should be killed asap and their money given to nice priests."
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Feb 8, 2021 20:41
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Word of god? More like word of Gog lol (Enlil I know )
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Feb 8, 2021 20:43
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Mr. Nice! posted:I mean, it nicely explains the flood story that eventually became noah's ark. The end of the last ice age caused massive ocean level changes. The straight of hormuz used to be coastal land and the arabian peninsula wasn't a peninsula at all. Plus it explains where the sumerians came from, because they're not the same people who lived in the area of Ur prior to that. I think the archeological record shows cuneiform developing wholly in (above ground) southern Iraq but I don’t know for sure
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Feb 8, 2021 20:44
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euphronius posted:I think the archeological record shows cuneiform developing wholly in (above ground) southern Iraq but I don’t know for sure The development of Cuneiform writing is quite well attested. There are a lot of proto-cuneiform tablets from the 4th millennium BC that show the very early stages of cuneiform writing developing. A visual example of the development of cuneiform: Tablet dating to 3500-3350 BC:  Tablet dating to 3350-3200 BC:  Tablet dating to 3200-3000 BC:  Tablet dating to 2900-2700 BC:  Tablet dating to 2700-2500 BC: 
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Feb 8, 2021 21:10
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I work with remote sensing in my day job so this was a super cool watch. Not at all surprised photogrammetry is the current best technique, that seems pretty universal any time you're working with a small enough area you can cover it with photos in a realistic time frame and budget
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Feb 8, 2021 21:37
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Right so they were already in post flood Iraq for thousands of years before they started cuneiform
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Feb 8, 2021 22:30
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euphronius posted:Right so they were already in post flood Iraq for thousands of years before they started cuneiform If we are defining "post flood" as starting around 9000 BC with the beginning of the Holocene, then yes, its much later then that. The earliest proto-cuneiform goes back to around 3300 BC, maybe 3500 BC if you are very generous about how you define proto-cuneiform.
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Feb 8, 2021 22:35
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This says Persian gulf flooded @6000 bce https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_Glacial_Maximum
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Feb 8, 2021 23:31
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totally normal then
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Feb 8, 2021 23:36
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euphronius posted:My favorite new to me idea is that Sumerians came from the flooded valley of the Tigris and Euphrates that is now the Persian gulf at the beginning of the Holocene I think my last favorite thing of this kind is the Green Sahara. Or more dubiously, Tartessos-as-Atlantis.
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Feb 9, 2021 03:20
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At work, we have a 4-metre pole we use to open high windows. I've used it, and my question is: how on earth did large groups of spear/pikemen manage to walk around without constantly accidentally stabbing their friends?
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Feb 9, 2021 08:20
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very carefully
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Feb 9, 2021 09:14
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I thought this was an interesting read about how we shouldn't assume human societies for most of human history were composed of small, egalitarian bands and that complex societies are a rare exception to that. https://aeon.co/essays/not-all-early-human-societies-were-small-scale-egalitarian-bands I knew about some of the stuff in there but I'd never heard of the Calusa in Florida, that must have been quite a sight back in the day. It's an interesting point in here about lavish burials of very young people in the palaeolithic, they couldn't have lived long enough to "earn" this distinction so it makes sense that there was something else going on.
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Feb 9, 2021 09:30
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Koramei posted:I wonder about this a bit. I remember reading that Heian Japanese nobility ate a shockingly bad diet; lots of nice expensive and tasty ingredients, which they would obviously value, but not remotely nutritious, to the point the nutrition deficiencies / diseases caused by them are visible (in their skeletons, or the literature? I forget). I wonder how true that is in most old cultures. At least one of them was beri-beri. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takaki_Kanehiro It ravaged the upper classes of Japan for centuries. It also reemerged in post war Japan as the economy started booming and people started eating almost exclusively white rice again.
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Feb 9, 2021 11:17
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Tree Bucket posted:At work, we have a 4-metre pole we use to open high windows. I've used it, and my question is: how on earth did large groups of spear/pikemen manage to walk around without constantly accidentally stabbing their friends? FreudianSlippers posted:very carefully lol but for real it was basically just that. that's why training is important. macedonians also carried their pikes in two parts on marches, though the main reason was probably that it was easier and cheaper to get two shorter hafts than one long one. perhaps the two part hafts also bent less? ChubbyChecker fucked around with this message at 11:45 on Feb 9, 2021 |
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Feb 9, 2021 11:40
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Marching around in formation, in general, is a lot harder than it looks. I've never carried a pike but marching shoulder-to-shoulder and rear end-to-cartouche with a hundred of your closest friends, while hauling a rifle around, is really difficult.
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Feb 9, 2021 15:36
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Tree Bucket posted:At work, we have a 4-metre pole we use to open high windows. I've used it, and my question is: how on earth did large groups of spear/pikemen manage to walk around without constantly accidentally stabbing their friends? Training, and the sarissa seems to have been two pieces that you screwed together when it was time to fight. Still talking about two poles of two or three meters each, but easier to handle.
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Feb 9, 2021 18:18
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Why not have a sarissa partner and carry them between you like a stretcher with the luggage in the middle?
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Feb 9, 2021 19:28
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Marching around in formation, in general, is a lot harder than it looks. I've never carried a pike but marching shoulder-to-shoulder and rear end-to-cartouche with a hundred of your closest friends, while hauling a rifle around, is really difficult.
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Feb 9, 2021 19:32
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They probably had a baggage train for carrying polearms and other unwieldy supplies long distance as most armies do.
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Feb 10, 2021 07:33
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Ghost Leviathan posted:They probably had a baggage train for carrying polearms and other unwieldy supplies long distance as most armies do. Yeah I found this passage in the Anabasis: quote:The first thing which I recommend is to burn the wagons we have got, so that we may be free to march wherever the army needs, and not, practically, make our baggage train our general. And, next, we should throw our tents into the bonfire also: for these again are only a trouble to carry, and do not contribute one grain of good either for fighting or getting provisions. Further, let us get rid of all superfluous baggage, save only what we require for the sake of war, or meat and drink, so that as many of us as possible may be under arms, and as few as possible doing porterage. They definitely had more stuff than they could carry just on the backs of the soldiers.
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Feb 10, 2021 07:49
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Mr. Nice! posted:It's quite possible that some forms of writing are older than we know because all of the records have long since been swallowed by the sea. F’htagn. It’s certainly a plausible hypothesis that there was a traumatic flood event somewhere in prehistory, given the frequency with which it pops up among unrelated cultures. But it might just be that floods happen everywhere and everyone hates them.
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Feb 10, 2021 07:58
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Beefeater1980 posted:F’htagn. It’s certainly a plausible hypothesis that there was a traumatic flood event somewhere in prehistory, given the frequency with which it pops up among unrelated cultures. But it might just be that floods happen everywhere and everyone hates them. Evidence in favor of the latter theory is the presence of flood myths in Andean cultures, which have no connection to the middle east.
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Feb 10, 2021 08:50
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euphronius posted:It’s really funny how mad Christians must have got when those cuneiform tablets started getting translated and oops your entire religion is copied IIRC Genesis says Abraham came from Ur.
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Feb 10, 2021 08:51
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Koramei posted:I wonder about this a bit. I remember reading that Heian Japanese nobility ate a shockingly bad diet; lots of nice expensive and tasty ingredients, which they would obviously value, but not remotely nutritious, to the point the nutrition deficiencies / diseases caused by them are visible (in their skeletons, or the literature? I forget). I wonder how true that is in most old cultures. Not a lack of nutrition, but gout.
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Feb 10, 2021 09:14
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CrypticFox posted:Evidence in favor of the latter theory is the presence of flood myths in Andean cultures, which have no connection to the middle east. China, too. There's a flood myth but it's completely different than the one in Mesopotomia : it's pretty much about people figuring out how to avoid flooding by making drainage canals, no annoyed gods trying to destroy humanity.
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Feb 10, 2021 09:30
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Grevling posted:I thought this was an interesting read about how we shouldn't assume human societies for most of human history were composed of small, egalitarian bands and that complex societies are a rare exception to that. Noice.
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Feb 10, 2021 09:41
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Floods are very common natural disasters and people are very creative in their storytelling and use what they know to build an exciting narrative. I think that goes a long way to explain flood myths in particular, but all kinds of myths as well. It needn't be a point-for-point match up between the historical events and the mythological constructs, because you can never account for what was accurate, embellished, inspired by, mixed into previous myths etc.
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Feb 10, 2021 09:56
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Grevling posted:I thought this was an interesting read about how we shouldn't assume human societies for most of human history were composed of small, egalitarian bands and that complex societies are a rare exception to that. interesting stuff
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Feb 10, 2021 12:18
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CrypticFox posted:Evidence in favor of the latter theory is the presence of flood myths in Andean cultures, which have no connection to the middle east. We know for a fact that a or multiple asteroid/comet/whatever hit the ice caps around 12 000 years ago. The evidence is undeniable and in 2018 a 21miles side crater was found under the ice which so far everything points to having been made at that time. I'm no scientist, but i'm betting millions of tons of ice got vaporized on the spot, falling back down as rain over the course of months. Probably even more ice melted almost immediately or over the course of weeks raising the level of the oceans dramatically. There is no doubt in my mind there was a world wide flood. Not one that flooded the whole earth or anything, but one that raised the levels of the oceans by alot and they never really went back down. I'm convinced this is where the idea of a worldwide flood comes from and it's time for historians to accept this idea and stop bleating about multiple small floods as if they believe the ancients were idiots who had no idea what they were talking about. https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/11/massive-crater-under-greenland-s-ice-points-climate-altering-impact-time-humans
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Feb 10, 2021 14:29
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An asteroid of the size needed to make that crater would not be large enough to cause the ridiculous global flood scenario you described.
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Feb 10, 2021 14:41
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