[Premodern history] the year of the two fatal eruptions

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > [Premodern history] the year of the two fatal eruptions

Archduke Frantz Fanon: Sep 7, 2004

Communist Thoughts posted:

iirc a bunch of buddhist iconography is influenced by greeks via baktria and places around there?

it also went the other way too with a lot of pagan and christan iconography taking indian influences (lakshmi being a big one)

# ? Feb 9, 2021 22:39

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# ? Jun 10, 2024 13:16

babypolis: Nov 4, 2009

Maya Fey posted:

akhenaten has a long face lol -amarna artists making akhenatens face longer and longer to troll him

# ? Feb 9, 2021 22:55

Flavius Aetass: Mar 30, 2011

Maya Fey posted:

akhenaten has a long face lol -amarna artists making akhenatens face longer and longer to troll him

giving him curvier and curvier mirrors

# ? Feb 9, 2021 23:26

DarkEuphoria: Nov 7, 2012

here�s this floor painting of ducks from the palace in Amarna, from the time of Akhenaten�s reign.

it�s no dog looking guilty after knocking over a vase, (it�s also much older) but does have a bit of a more realistic style than a lot of what people think of as the traditional ancient Egyptian art

# ? Feb 10, 2021 00:58

Lord of Pie: Mar 2, 2007

Alhazred posted:

Speaking of Nefertiti. It was believed for a long time that her husband Akhenaten suffered from some some sort of syndrome because of the way he was portrayed:

Then his mummy was found and it turned out that he looked totally normal and the sculptures was just a stylistic choice.

barnacle jim was a time traveler

# ? Feb 10, 2021 03:10

twoday: May 4, 2005; C-SPAM Times best-selling author

Alhazred posted:

Speaking of Nefertiti. It was believed for a long time that her husband Akhenaten suffered from some some sort of syndrome because of the way he was portrayed:

Then his mummy was found and it turned out that he looked totally normal and the sculptures was just a stylistic choice.

I don't have my calipers with me but check out this chin:

Timestamped for relevant discussion about Akhenaten's possible Marfan syndrome (although this whole documentary is great and I highly recommend it if you have an hour to kill):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPlHwTXi7tk&t=2162s

Actually although they were initially sure it was him, it's still quite a controversy whether or not the KV55 mummy was him or not, it's also speculated that it may have been his brother Thutmoses, because of genetic studies that have been done on that one, and King Tut, his son, and also The Younger Lady, who is the mother of King Tut, but does not seem to be Nefertiti, and was probably Akhenaten's sister.

It's hard to correlate the genetic data and the known relationships because the 18th Dynasty was more inbred than the Habsburgs (though they had comparable jawlines), and it's impossible from genetic analysis to tell if two people were brother and sister or third cousins:

Interestingly, the KV55 mummy was not mummified, and was just a skeleton in a box, which would make sense if it was Akhenaten since he disregarded the Osiris-based religion and would have considered mummification to be pointless

twoday has issued a correction as of 04:49 on Feb 10, 2021

# ? Feb 10, 2021 03:44

twoday: May 4, 2005; C-SPAM Times best-selling author

DarkEuphoria posted:

here�s this floor painting of ducks from the palace in Amarna, from the time of Akhenaten�s reign.

it�s no dog looking guilty after knocking over a vase, (it�s also much older) but does have a bit of a more realistic style than a lot of what people think of as the traditional ancient Egyptian art

Amarna period artwork is notable because, since it is from the time when Akhenaton was overthrowing all of the conventions in society, it was one of the times when there was a deliberate attempt to break free of traditional artistic motifs, which is why these ducks look less "flat" than most Egyptian art

# ? Feb 10, 2021 03:54

Ghostlight: Sep 25, 2009; maybe for one second you can pause; try to step into another person's perspective, and understand that a watermelon is cursing me

twoday posted:

ay??? lmao ancient aliens confirmed

# ? Feb 10, 2021 04:12

twoday: May 4, 2005; C-SPAM Times best-selling author

Ay and the Theban priests deffo murdered Tut, the other king who ruled for 6 months before him, Tut's mom, and the rest of Akhenaten's children so that Ay could become king and restore the cult of Amun

# ? Feb 10, 2021 04:18

Riot Bimbo: Dec 28, 2006

twoday posted:

Ay and the Theban priests deffo murdered Tut, the other king who ruled for 6 months before him, Tut's mom, and the rest of Akhenaten's children so that Ay could become king and restore the cult of Amun

Do you mean to tell me "The emperor... Suddenly died!" Is how it actually went down in Egypt lmao

# ? Feb 10, 2021 04:23

twoday: May 4, 2005; C-SPAM Times best-selling author

Riot Bimbo posted:

Do you mean to tell me "The emperor... Suddenly died!" Is how it actually went down in Egypt lmao

it's unclear

Akhenaten tried to overthrow all of tradition and society, and then suddenly disappeared from the record; then his son took over for 6 months and suddenly died, then Tutankhaten took over, but he decided to change his name to Tutankhamun and restore the cult of Amun, but then he also died at a very young age, then Ay took over, and after that Akhenaten was called a heretic and later kings actively made an effort to destroy all traces of Akhenaten's reign and pull off a damnatio memoriae, so we don't really have any records of what happened

but Ay murdered them all, I'm pretty sure

# ? Feb 10, 2021 04:30

Alhazred: Feb 16, 2011

More likely he died of a combination of myriad of genetic syndromes plus malaria.

# ? Feb 10, 2021 08:43

Zedhe Khoja: Nov 10, 2017; sürgünden selamlar
yıkıcılar ulusuna

twoday posted:

I don't have my calipers with me but check out this chin:

Timestamped for relevant discussion about Akhenaten's possible Marfan syndrome (although this whole documentary is great and I highly recommend it if you have an hour to kill):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPlHwTXi7tk&t=2162s

Actually although they were initially sure it was him, it's still quite a controversy whether or not the KV55 mummy was him or not, it's also speculated that it may have been his brother Thutmoses, because of genetic studies that have been done on that one, and King Tut, his son, and also The Younger Lady, who is the mother of King Tut, but does not seem to be Nefertiti, and was probably Akhenaten's sister.

It's hard to correlate the genetic data and the known relationships because the 18th Dynasty was more inbred than the Habsburgs (though they had comparable jawlines), and it's impossible from genetic analysis to tell if two people were brother and sister or third cousins:

Interestingly, the KV55 mummy was not mummified, and was just a skeleton in a box, which would make sense if it was Akhenaten since he disregarded the Osiris-based religion and would have considered mummification to be pointless

A few years ago I was at a digsite where an entire lineage of people who had some kind of low-grade gigantism were buried on the acropolis(all close to 7 ft tall in an era of manlets). Dudes had some big ol hosed up bones.

# ? Feb 10, 2021 08:47

twoday: May 4, 2005; C-SPAM Times best-selling author

Zedhe Khoja posted:

A few years ago I was at a digsite where an entire lineage of people who had some kind of low-grade gigantism were buried on the acropolis(all close to 7 ft tall in an era of manlets). Dudes had some big ol hosed up bones.

cool, where

# ? Feb 10, 2021 08:47

DarkEuphoria: Nov 7, 2012

twoday posted:

Interestingly, the KV55 mummy was not mummified, and was just a skeleton in a box, which would make sense if it was Akhenaten since he disregarded the Osiris-based religion and would have considered mummification to be pointless

owned bones

# ? Feb 10, 2021 08:49

Weka: May 5, 2019; That child totally had it coming. Nobody should be able to be out at dusk except cars.

HookedOnChthonics posted:

aside from what else has been said, the timeline you provide is for when people decided that this certain visual-spatial muscle memory trick was actually a Technique with a name and a right way of doing it that should be recorded in a text and replicated in students. there's no doubt individual artisans and artistic lineages deployed those techniques before they were "understood;" saying you need to have grown up after that advent to be capable of it at all is some 'native americans literally couldn't see european ships at first contact b/c they had no cultural lens for them' bs

Good thing I didn't make that claim then.

I would genuinely love to see examples of perspective older than 2500 years if you have any.

# ? Feb 10, 2021 09:47

Zedhe Khoja: Nov 10, 2017; sürgünden selamlar
yıkıcılar ulusuna

twoday posted:

cool, where

Filyos.

e: A small town on the black sea thats most notable for being one of the cities Amastris used to populate the city that bears her name further up the coast, itself basically a piece of minor historical trivia. Pretty well off for it's size though, and it had a decent bit of pseudo-archaic pottery that was popular (and expensive) for a time.

Zedhe Khoja has issued a correction as of 10:48 on Feb 10, 2021

# ? Feb 10, 2021 10:38

Flavius Aetass: Mar 30, 2011

What do you mean by pseudo-archaic? Like classical or Hellenistic pottery made in imitation of an earlier style or something else?

I'd love some general pottery posts too if you have the time.

# ? Feb 10, 2021 15:45

Real hurthling!: Sep 11, 2001

sherding my pants

# ? Feb 10, 2021 15:46

Alhazred: Feb 16, 2011

# ? Feb 10, 2021 17:44

Nebakenezzer: Sep 13, 2005; The Mote in God's Eye

twoday posted:

It's hard to correlate the genetic data and the known relationships because the 18th Dynasty was more inbred than the Habsburgs (though they had comparable jawlines), and it's impossible from genetic analysis to tell if two people were brother and sister or third cousins:

Good lord, that's horrifying.

The Habsburgs should be the official unit of inbreeding. Now fight me if "worst imaginable" is 1, or we pick the first :thunk:

marriage as 1, and then add from there.

# ? Feb 10, 2021 20:11

Nebakenezzer: Sep 13, 2005; The Mote in God's Eye

Zedhe Khoja posted:

Filyos.

e: A small town on the black sea thats most notable for being one of the cities Amastris used to populate the city that bears her name further up the coast, itself basically a piece of minor historical trivia. Pretty well off for it's size though, and it had a decent bit of pseudo-archaic pottery that was popular (and expensive) for a time.

Cool, maybe those dudes were the giants of the bible

(I mention this because there's a theory that one of the causes of the great flood story in the bible is when the Black Sea went from a freshwater lake to a saltwater sea in a matter of days when the sea managed to get in)

# ? Feb 10, 2021 20:26

Zedhe Khoja: Nov 10, 2017; sürgünden selamlar
yıkıcılar ulusuna

Flavius Aetass posted:

What do you mean by pseudo-archaic? Like classical or Hellenistic pottery made in imitation of an earlier style or something else?

I'd love some general pottery posts too if you have the time.

Literally that. Some of the fragments we were finding superficially resembled protogeometric ceramics, but were very obviously made using much more modern techniques. Presumably this was driven by Homer-fetishism or something.

I'm not an archeology major so I don't actually have much to say on pottery except that usually the various styles you hear or read about that define a time period are high-end luxury goods. The day to day utilitarian stuff is basically identical from the pre-classical era up through the Byzantine layers. The professor I worked with referred to it as "crapware" and it's 75% of what you pull out even on an acropolis. Another 24% are pithos fragments.

# ? Feb 10, 2021 20:58

Dalael: Oct 14, 2014; Hello. Yep, I still think Atlantis is Bolivia, yep, I'm still a giant idiot, yep, I'm still a huge racist. Some things never change!

Zedhe Khoja posted:

Literally that. Some of the fragments we were finding superficially resembled protogeometric ceramics, but were very obviously made using much more modern techniques. Presumably this was driven by Homer-fetishism or something.

I'm not an archeology major so I don't actually have much to say on pottery except that usually the various styles you hear or read about that define a time period are high-end luxury goods. The day to day utilitarian stuff is basically identical from the pre-classical era up through the Byzantine layers. The professor I worked with referred to it as "crapware" and it's 75% of what you pull out even on an acropolis. Another 24% are pithos fragments.

So its basically the ancient equivalent of tupperware?

# ? Feb 10, 2021 21:18

Zedhe Khoja: Nov 10, 2017; sürgünden selamlar
yıkıcılar ulusuna

Dalael posted:

So its basically the ancient equivalent of tupperware?

Somewhere between that and a paper plate. Thin, relatively low bake temperature/time, soft. Often quite smooth and not necessarily unattractive. But obviously mass produced and using the minimum of effort.

# ? Feb 10, 2021 21:57

Some Guy TT: Aug 30, 2011

https://mobile.twitter.com/baseballcrank/status/1359626581409464320

not really sure this is the analogy you want to use if the point youre trying to make is that trump is the bad guy here

# ? Feb 11, 2021 09:27

Yadoppsi: May 10, 2009

Nebakenezzer posted:

(I mention this because there's a theory that one of the causes of the great flood story in the bible is when the Black Sea went from a freshwater lake to a saltwater sea in a matter of days when the sea managed to get in)

It's based off the flooding of the Persian Gulf the drove the Sumerians to settle in the location of their famous cities imo.

Edit) bouncing off of that and the recent hilarity in the A/T history thread what are some of your favorite history conspiracies? I'm not talking ancient aliens poo poo but stuff that could be a heterodox history if a layman squints at it just so. Napoleon knocking the nose off the Sphinx because he thought it looked too african is a classic (it was an Inman centuries ago trying to stop idol worship) or the theory that the pyramids were built atop much older structures created by a higher tech civilization wiped out when the Younger Dyras ended.

Yadoppsi has issued a correction as of 09:49 on Feb 11, 2021

# ? Feb 11, 2021 09:34

Take the plunge! Okay!: Feb 24, 2007

Yadoppsi posted:

It's based off the flooding of the Persian Gulf the drove the Sumerians to settle in the location of their famous cities imo.

Edit) bouncing off of that and the recent hilarity in the A/T history thread what are some of your favorite history conspiracies? I'm not talking ancient aliens poo poo but stuff that could be a heterodox history if a layman squints at it just so. Napoleon knocking the nose off the Sphinx because he thought it looked too african is a classic (it was an Inman centuries ago trying to stop idol worship) or the theory that the pyramids were built atop much older structures created by a higher tech civilization wiped out when the Younger Dyras ended.

I guess the Doggerland/Atlantis hypothesis

# ? Feb 11, 2021 10:35

Ghostlight: Sep 25, 2009; maybe for one second you can pause; try to step into another person's perspective, and understand that a watermelon is cursing me

Some Guy TT posted:

https://mobile.twitter.com/baseballcrank/status/1359626581409464320

not really sure this is the analogy you want to use if the point youre trying to make is that trump is the bad guy here

reminder: in most systems of government in world history there wouldn't have been an election for donald trump to lose.

# ? Feb 11, 2021 12:49

Ghostlight: Sep 25, 2009; maybe for one second you can pause; try to step into another person's perspective, and understand that a watermelon is cursing me

Yadoppsi posted:

Edit) bouncing off of that and the recent hilarity in the A/T history thread what are some of your favorite history conspiracies?

since you excluded ancient aliens stuff, it's one this thread actually introduced me to - the idea that the kaaba of mecca was originally in petra but muslims secretly or ignorantly moved or reconstructed it in the modern city of mecca because some reason, and therefore no muslim is praying in the right direction.

# ? Feb 11, 2021 13:17

Alhazred: Feb 16, 2011

Nebakenezzer posted:

Good lord, that's horrifying.

Wait til you see the ptolomey. 300 years of brothers and sister's loving each other.

# ? Feb 11, 2021 13:35

CoolCab: Apr 17, 2005; glem

Yadoppsi posted:

It's based off the flooding of the Persian Gulf the drove the Sumerians to settle in the location of their famous cities imo.

Edit) bouncing off of that and the recent hilarity in the A/T history thread what are some of your favorite history conspiracies? I'm not talking ancient aliens poo poo but stuff that could be a heterodox history if a layman squints at it just so. Napoleon knocking the nose off the Sphinx because he thought it looked too african is a classic (it was an Inman centuries ago trying to stop idol worship) or the theory that the pyramids were built atop much older structures created by a higher tech civilization wiped out when the Younger Dyras ended.

oh for sure the phantom time hypothesis, and that one is even pretty modern. a conspiracy that popes and emperors made up several hundred years of history - including Charlemagne - so that their rule would line up with the millennia turning over and as such be granted legitimacy (????). amazingly, the conspirators were so successful they apparently managed to penetrate the entire globe's calendar system in 1000 AD - wait, poo poo sorry, 703 AD.

# ? Feb 11, 2021 13:45

Plutonis: Mar 25, 2011

CoolCab posted:

oh for sure the phantom time hypothesis, and that one is even pretty modern. a conspiracy that popes and emperors made up several hundred years of history - including Charlemagne - so that their rule would line up with the millennia turning over and as such be granted legitimacy (????). amazingly, the conspirators were so successful they apparently managed to penetrate the entire globe's calendar system in 1000 AD - wait, poo poo sorry, 703 AD.

Fomenko's New Chronology is amazing. Here's a good paper dealing with it. http://carlbeckpapers.pitt.edu/ojs/index.php/cbp/article/view/160

Fun fact: Garry Kasparov is one of its biggest spreaders lol

# ? Feb 11, 2021 14:00

Tulip: Jun 3, 2008; yeah thats pretty good

Yadoppsi posted:

It's based off the flooding of the Persian Gulf the drove the Sumerians to settle in the location of their famous cities imo.

Edit) bouncing off of that and the recent hilarity in the A/T history thread what are some of your favorite history conspiracies? I'm not talking ancient aliens poo poo but stuff that could be a heterodox history if a layman squints at it just so. Napoleon knocking the nose off the Sphinx because he thought it looked too african is a classic (it was an Inman centuries ago trying to stop idol worship) or the theory that the pyramids were built atop much older structures created by a higher tech civilization wiped out when the Younger Dyras ended.

The badhistory reddit finds bizarre ones all the time, I'm still trying to figure out what the gently caress is the deal with the "ancient greeks are just baltics wearing funny hats" theory (it climaxes with "Alexander was conquering Persia in order to get the forces to conquer the Baltics").

Korean-Finnish Hyperwar is probably the thread favorite but I don't know if it meets your qualifications, partially because I don't know if it exists as anything but a joke about things like The Chart.

# ? Feb 11, 2021 14:46

Cerebral Bore: Apr 21, 2010; Fun Shoe

the finno-korean hyperwar doesn't count because the only conspiracy involving it is the one where they're suppressing the evidence of this irrefutable historical fact

# ? Feb 11, 2021 15:01

Some Guy TT: Aug 30, 2011

i have never been able to find any references to that ancient korean empire stuff in korean and im increasingly convinced it actually originates from some weird diasporic hotep ethnic korean cult rather than actual korea

# ? Feb 11, 2021 15:01

Plutonis: Mar 25, 2011

Some Guy TT posted:

i have never been able to find any references to that ancient korean empire stuff in korean and im increasingly convinced it actually originates from some weird diasporic hotep ethnic korean cult rather than actual korea

http://koreabridge.net/post/korean-nationalism-when-world-was-korean-intraman

# ? Feb 11, 2021 15:07