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Framboise posted:ACAB except Goodman, who is Okay Until Proven Otherwise. also that cop who got crushed seems to be a good dude too course unless proven otherwise.
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Feb 11, 2021 02:57
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Grouchio posted:Is there a vote to convict tonight or later this week? no one knows, not until next week at earliest
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Feb 11, 2021 03:02
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BigBallChunkyTime posted:Do.we have reason to believe Officer Goodman is a lovely person? Honestly asking. I mean for god's sake his name is Eugene Goodman, let us have this one damnit
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Feb 11, 2021 03:09
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Is tomorrow the Democrats again or will Trumps clowns be up?
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Feb 11, 2021 03:21
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SalTheBard posted:Is tomorrow the Democrats again or will Trumps clowns be up? Democrats again tomorrow, then two days of Trump defense.
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Feb 11, 2021 03:23
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dp
Deteriorata fucked around with this message at 03:37 on Feb 11, 2021 |
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Feb 11, 2021 03:27
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To me, ACAB is less of a judgement on individual people who choose to be police officers, and more of a recognition that the basis of policing is corrupted and flawed, and as such has the power to make good people do bad things. The truth is that a good officer like Goodman, who is without question a hero for his actions, is no less vulnerable to that corruption, which is why we need to reform the institution itself. It's not a judgement on him to say that; it's the reality that policing has been designed to prey on human psychology, and much like advertising, propaganda, hazardous attitudes in general, etc.: the trick is to realize that no one is above them, no one is so pure and righteous that they can entirely withstand the influence. Therefore, I think it's consistent to both celebrate Officer Goodman for his actions, while maintaining a steady dislike of the police as an institution.
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Feb 11, 2021 03:40
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^^ This It's the system not the individual actors, though there is nothing preventing the individual actors from being extra bastards if they want.
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Feb 11, 2021 03:40
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Also, I could at least imagine the Capitol Police not being as attractive to the worst authoritarian personality types. There's probably a lot less hassling random sex workers and drug dealers in that job. Or maybe not, I honestly don't know.
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Feb 11, 2021 05:33
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PT6A posted:To me, ACAB is less of a judgement on individual people who choose to be police officers, and more of a recognition that the basis of policing is corrupted and flawed, and as such has the power to make good people do bad things. The truth is that a good officer like Goodman, who is without question a hero for his actions, is no less vulnerable to that corruption, which is why we need to reform the institution itself. It's not a judgement on him to say that; it's the reality that policing has been designed to prey on human psychology, and much like advertising, propaganda, hazardous attitudes in general, etc.: the trick is to realize that no one is above them, no one is so pure and righteous that they can entirely withstand the influence. 100% this.
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Feb 11, 2021 05:49
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PT6A posted:To me, ACAB is less of a judgement on individual people who choose to be police officers, and more of a recognition that the basis of policing is corrupted and flawed, and as such has the power to make good people do bad things. The truth is that a good officer like Goodman, who is without question a hero for his actions, is no less vulnerable to that corruption, which is why we need to reform the institution itself. It's not a judgement on him to say that; it's the reality that policing has been designed to prey on human psychology, and much like advertising, propaganda, hazardous attitudes in general, etc.: the trick is to realize that no one is above them, no one is so pure and righteous that they can entirely withstand the influence. Not Goodman, but Hodges (the guy crushed in the door): “It was absolutely my pleasure to crush a white nationalist insurrection and I’m glad I was in a position to help. We’ll do it as many times as it takes.” In conclusion, the Capitol Police are a land of contrasts.
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Feb 11, 2021 05:54
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To me if you see an evil organization and choose of your own free volition to not only give direct aid to that organization but, in fact, to join it that is a condemnation of you. There is a moral obligation to resist evil, not help it out. I can understand if you are drafted into a military or if your choice is literally between poverty or complicity (no ethical consumption under capitalism, etc) but, like, I somehow doubt Goodman - or any other 'good' cop - truly had no possible alternative besides policework.
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Feb 11, 2021 05:55
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HisMajestyBOB posted:Not Goodman, but Hodges (the guy crushed in the door): “It was absolutely my pleasure to crush a white nationalist insurrection and I’m glad I was in a position to help. We’ll do it as many times as it takes.” Is this any different than any other police department? I'm guessing any large PD in a city has a few anti-white supremacist officers. But I'm also guessing they'll always be a lot more officers who are not in that same state of mind, at least in the short-term future.
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Feb 11, 2021 06:00
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RoboChrist 9000 posted:To me if you see an evil organization and choose of your own free volition to not only give direct aid to that organization but, in fact, to join it that is a condemnation of you. Policework is literally some of the best pay and benefits a person without a college degree can get, bar none. If you're supporting a family, their medical coverage might be a matter of life and death for your kids.
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Feb 11, 2021 06:01
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Pick posted:Policework is literally some of the best pay and benefits a person without a college degree can get, bar none. If you're supporting a family, their medical coverage might be a matter of life and death for your kids. Tell that to Zuckerberg 
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Feb 11, 2021 06:03
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RoboChrist 9000 posted:To me if you see an evil organization and choose of your own free volition to not only give direct aid to that organization but, in fact, to join it that is a condemnation of you. That being said if Goodman decided to take a different job and you got some incompetent idiot, or someone scared of a charging mob and unable to think quick, or some chud sympathizer you get a a lot of dead senators. In other words you need more Goodman's in the force actually doing good, not less.
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Feb 11, 2021 06:10
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HisMajestyBOB posted:Not Goodman, but Hodges (the guy crushed in the door): “It was absolutely my pleasure to crush a white nationalist insurrection and I’m glad I was in a position to help. We’ll do it as many times as it takes.” It exists in most every police agency. You know the good cops we all wish there were more of? If you talk to them, the number one complaint they have is the organization, and I know this because I have friends who are cops and who speak honestly with me about it. I've heard "yes, we need to defund the agency, and get rid of the people who are here for the wrong reasons or just plain loving incompetent, and fix the leadership structure." I've not heard "this is a well-run organization full of perfectly sane, excellent people." The truth is that officers like Eugene Goodman or Hodges exist to some degree in every police force. Good people, who are legitimately interested in a clear public good and indeed willing to risk their lives for it if necessary. The problem is a structure which causes them to act in ways which are contrary to the public good, and an organization that encourages them to do bad things. It really is a case of "a few bad apples" but in the sense the phrase was originally meant: "a few bad apples spoil the bunch." As long as the bad apples are not taken out ASAP, the bunch is, to wit: spoiled.
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Feb 11, 2021 06:47
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SalTheBard posted:Is tomorrow the Democrats again or will Trumps clowns be up? Apparently the more competent of Trump's two lawyers has to bow out for Friday and Saturday, which means Trump's entire defense is in the hands Abraham Foghorn Leghorn Simpson. Not gonna make a lick of different with the Suicide Squad locked in place and just waiting for the time to acquit on Team-R, but it'll be fun as poo poo to watch though.
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Feb 11, 2021 06:57
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A bad cop enforcing a good law like the system of democracy will look good 90% of the time. A mythical good cop enforcing a poo poo law which often are found in neighborhood and state codes will look poo poo 90% of the time. In this situation, I’d probably be apologizing for the cops even if they went weapons-free as soon as chuds starting pouring through the windows. If you break into the heart of government to usurp state power, you should logically expect them to not go down without a little automatic weapons fire. Not to glorify it, but that's what everyone has been conditioned to expect about the sanctity of the government's most important compounds. Craptacular! fucked around with this message at 12:10 on Feb 11, 2021 |
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Feb 11, 2021 11:49
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Here is the link to today's hearing when they get started (has a form to notify you when they are about to begin, as well). https://www.c-span.org/video/?508743-1/impeachment-trial
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Feb 11, 2021 13:26
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NBC News also has a good, free live stream (if you want a little political commentary, instead of „interesting“ callers in any breaks): https://youtu.be/dQqkHjvj2zU
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Feb 11, 2021 13:34
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Watched about 3 and a half hours last night. Well done and very convincing, not that 70 million people who need to see it will. The dem strategy seems to be to make Trumps defense concede to Trump understanding his supporters were prepared for violence. Indeed that he intentionally groomed and prepared them for that over a period of months. Or, be forced into challenging those statements with alternative facts and open the door for extended witness testimony. Apparently Trump (Bannon and Stone) really wants them to argue that the election was rife with fraud which would be a huge trap as it would allow the house to full days and days with legal briefs disputing that claim in detail. Either they concede without challenge that the election fraud claim was a Big Lie (in the Nazi sense) as the house has asserted or just be eviscerated.
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Feb 11, 2021 13:50
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I hope they try to dispute the fraud and it's all litigated out publicly so that loving argument can be utterly destroyed, on the record.
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Feb 11, 2021 14:17
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biracial bear for uncut posted:I hope they try to dispute the fraud and it's all litigated out publicly so that loving argument can be utterly destroyed, on the record. You act like that would make a difference in changing anyone's mind.
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Feb 11, 2021 14:26
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BigBallChunkyTime posted:You act like that would make a difference in changing anyone's mind. Yeah, but I don't give a poo poo about changing their minds. I want it preserved for historical records later.
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Feb 11, 2021 14:27
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biracial bear for uncut posted:Yeah, but I don't give a poo poo about changing their minds. I want it preserved for historical records later. Isn't that argument already unquestionably destroyed already? Not being a dick, just not sure what more you want.
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Feb 11, 2021 14:47
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BigBallChunkyTime posted:Isn't that argument already unquestionably destroyed already? Not being a dick, just not sure what more you want. It's destroyed outside of the impeachment hearings, but if the "defense" brings it up I want it loving squashed.
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Feb 11, 2021 14:55
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I think I read that only a couple of hundred people have been arrested, that number is going to keep going up, right,?
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Feb 11, 2021 15:01
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https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/senate-resolution/47/text has been posted. I sure don't see a "section 16", so perhaps Lee was referring to a different document. There's no provision that permits Lee to file a motion counteracting the presentations (from either side) while in progress. In fact it's not clear if it counted against their time. In fact the only recourse is during the Q&A period or during the later arguments on subpoenas for witnesses or documents. I'd say he was out of order.
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Feb 11, 2021 15:01
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PhantomOfTheCopier posted:https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/senate-resolution/47/text has been posted. They need to arrest his rear end, then. Didn't they say at the beginning that disrupting the process was punishable by actual consequences?
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Feb 11, 2021 15:03
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Based on earlier documents, I suspect (the legal representatives for Trump) will be arguing that the 1/6 rally was "free speech", made seven days after law enforcement knew about impending violence, that all his (free) speech has been cherry picked, and that "fight fight" (used in college football fight songs) is not impeachable. I also think they'll again plug "remove and disqualify", claiming that "we can't remove so we can't disqualify". Depending on who conducts the presentation, it seems very likely that they'll spend an inordinate amount of time arguing "the president hasn't broken any criminal laws" (I used the present tense with intent) and "therefore there hasn't been proper due process and the article of impeachment should be thrown out" like a Trump election lawsuit. They'll be looking to spend the full 16 hours filling the airwaves with material that's mostly unrelated to what's already been shown, and likely won't defend against it at all, simply redirect attention to other things.
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Feb 11, 2021 15:16
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biracial bear for uncut posted:They need to arrest his rear end, then. Didn't they say at the beginning that disrupting the process was punishable by actual consequences? EG, if a senator was there with a long rifle preventing the presentation, or someone was being loud and unruly, they would be handled by the sergeant at arms. (Sorry I don't get to watch our political processes more often, so I don't know the collection of standing rules.) IANAS haha. If you look at how it was handled yesterday, however, it's clear that no one really knows the procedure in these cases and the presiding officer is not strong at gaveling down interruptions.
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Feb 11, 2021 15:22
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PhantomOfTheCopier posted:Depending on who conducts the presentation, it seems very likely that they'll spend an inordinate amount of time arguing "the president hasn't broken any criminal laws" (I used the present tense with intent) and "therefore there hasn't been proper due process and the article of impeachment should be thrown out" like a Trump election lawsuit. This really bugs the poo poo out of me because the impeachment proceeding IS the due process and these pricks know it. They threw that term around a lot the first time too.
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Feb 11, 2021 15:52
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jet sanchEz posted:I think I read that only a couple of hundred people have been arrested, that number is going to keep going up, right,? I've seen estimates that only about 800 people actually entered the Capitol. A significant portion of that went in said, "I shouldn't be here" and left. The FBI has charged just shy of 200 people in federal court https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/capitol-breach-cases amd a few days ago announced that they are looking for information on about 150 more. There are also some people charged by other state and local governments. I don't know how large this number is. So, I think 350 to 400 is probably what you should expect to actually be charged with offenses that could result in jail time of people who were at the capitol. However, I think that oath keepers and proud boys and other fringe alt-right groups are going to get caught up in wider conspiracy nets over the next few years and so the total charged 'in relation to' events at the capitol could be very large when all is said and done
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Feb 11, 2021 15:55
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BiggerBoat posted:This really bugs the poo poo out of me because the impeachment proceeding IS the due process and these pricks know it. They threw that term around a lot the first time too.  Anyway I feel like I'm posting speculation and drifting a bit off the thread purpose. I hope it's okay since we're 2hr away from today's start.  ps NBC was nothing this throughout the breaks yesterday, that "this is a political process, not a criminal trial" (but I suspect most people have a flawed interpretation of "political process").
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Feb 11, 2021 16:03
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PhantomOfTheCopier posted:Depending on who conducts the presentation, it seems very likely that they'll spend an inordinate amount of time arguing "the president hasn't broken any criminal laws" (I used the present tense with intent) and "therefore there hasn't been proper due process and the article of impeachment should be thrown out" like a Trump election lawsuit. Any attempt to segue into the language of a criminal case should be squashed quickly and completely. It's a fallacious defense whose only intent is to provide an out along the lines of, "Well, they didn't prove he committed a crime so I can't find him guilty". This is not a criminal case, violating his oath of office is not a criminal offense and this is not a court of law. The senate does not need to sit and be lied to, they can and should exert themselves to punish fraudulent, bad faith arguments. Apparently the brief they filed is filled with bad arguments and misstated quotations taken out of context where they repeat a portion of a statement to strengthen their claim without acknowledging the remainder of the statement which refutes it in full. This would be punished in a court of law and it should be punished here.
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Feb 11, 2021 16:08
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highme posted:^^ This Eh, it's the actors too because EVERY ( decent sized city) cop has seen incompetency and corruption in fellow cops at the least, and actual assault, crimes, and racial hate at the worst, and has stood aside and done nothing about it. If they did do something about it, they would no longer be cops. This only really doesn't apply for cops that are in small towns or places where they don't have to deal with minorities, etc. and don't see how fellow cops act around them. The Wire is a good example; Kima and McNulty and later-Carver and Freemon were "good cops," but were still shown to screw over people, beat people, and turn a blind eye to bad colleagues. Seeing harm and doing nothing about it makes you complicit in the harm and thus not good.
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Feb 11, 2021 16:25
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biracial bear for uncut posted:They need to arrest his rear end, then. Didn't they say at the beginning that disrupting the process was punishable by actual consequences? google 'speech and debate clause' to learn why this is absolutely unconstitutional
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Feb 11, 2021 16:31
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pthighs posted:Also, I could at least imagine the Capitol Police not being as attractive to the worst authoritarian personality types. There's probably a lot less hassling random sex workers and drug dealers in that job. Or maybe not, I honestly don't know. Capital Police are not that much different. They had no problem arresting peaceful protestors in wheel chairs. Just because Goodman did the right thing don't give the whole department the same pass. Some of them where taking selfies with the insurrectionist remember. 
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Feb 11, 2021 16:44
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Vire posted:Capital Police are not that much different. They had no problem arresting peaceful protestors in wheel chairs. Just because Goodman did the right thing don't give the whole department the same pass. Some of them where taking selfies with the insurrectionist remember. Protest on the Capitol grounds is actually prohibited without permission, peaceful or not. Getting pictures being dragged out to gain support and attention for their cause was the point of that demonstration.
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Feb 11, 2021 16:57
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