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Jesus.....Shadowbane is back on Steam.
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Feb 9, 2021 19:04
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Givin posted:Jesus.....Shadowbane is back on Steam. https://store.steampowered.com/app/1475570/Shadowbane/ wow, wtf poo poo I'm tempted to hop in for a bit
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Feb 9, 2021 19:06
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I was wondering who was putting that up and had to laugh at the dev and publisher.
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Feb 9, 2021 19:53
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Feb 9, 2021 19:56
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 that ownsmust have directx 9 lmao
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Feb 9, 2021 20:07
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well, to be fair FFXI came out 3 years after EQ. I think I played it briefly while waiting for the Planetside beta, and the interface was generally pretty dang clunky. I think it largely came from their roots- EQ has clear genesis in MUDs, just look at all of the chat commands for various important pieces of functionality (/char, /camp, /cast, /autoattack, etc..), whereas FFXI seemed to have directly evolved from the previous console Final Fantasy games, very menu driven etc as I recall.
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Feb 9, 2021 22:46
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You moved your character in FFXI not with WASD, but with numpad 8462. iirc you could not rebind this
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Feb 9, 2021 22:49
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cmdrk posted:well, to be fair FFXI came out 3 years after EQ. I think I played it briefly while waiting for the Planetside beta, and the interface was generally pretty dang clunky. I think it largely came from their roots- EQ has clear genesis in MUDs, just look at all of the chat commands for various important pieces of functionality (/char, /camp, /cast, /autoattack, etc..), whereas FFXI seemed to have directly evolved from the previous console Final Fantasy games, very menu driven etc as I recall. Yeah but again, FFXI was on PS2 and Xbox. The chat driven stuff would be painful on a controller. The menu stuff works well considering they had to come up with a way to play an MMO on a PS2 controller. Chillgamesh posted:You moved your character in FFXI not with WASD, but with numpad 8462. iirc you could not rebind this Yeah, the ports of FFVII and FFVIII did similar things IIRC. They even came with this weird overlay you could place on top of your num pad to list the buttons next to it. There was an alternate control style called "compact" that used WSAD though.
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Feb 9, 2021 23:04
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ffxi is a ps2 game that received a pc port, not a pc native application the interface was bad, but not in an unusable kind of way as they did make a reasonable number of concessions to usability on PC over time. i'm pretty sure i rebound several other mmos afterward to use the numpad for movement and it's still reasonably comfortable for me
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Feb 9, 2021 23:09
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Chillgamesh posted:You moved your character in FFXI not with WASD, but with numpad 8462. iirc you could not rebind this Reminds me of the default SWG keybinds.
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Feb 9, 2021 23:44
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Didn't EQ have it's updated, much better UI by the time FFXI launched? I could have sworn that was a pre Luclin thing. That UI update was a huge leap forward.
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Feb 9, 2021 23:58
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PlayOnline is enough to warrant ranking FFXI at the very bottom of any category it would be considered in. Tetra Master is enough to auto make it number 1 GOTY every year.
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Feb 10, 2021 01:03
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Zaphod42 posted:Yeah but again, FFXI was on PS2 and Xbox. The chat driven stuff would be painful on a controller. The menu stuff works well considering they had to come up with a way to play an MMO on a PS2 controller. Ah! I had forgotten that it was also released on console. Makes sense now. Maybe FFXI is more directly comparable to EQ Online Adventures. DapperDraculaDeer posted:Didn't EQ have it's updated, much better UI by the time FFXI launched? I could have sworn that was a pre Luclin thing. That UI update was a huge leap forward. Yes, EQ's UI evolved several times. I think the first significant update was around the time of Velious (2000).
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Feb 10, 2021 02:02
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Givin posted:PlayOnline is enough to warrant ranking FFXI at the very bottom of any category it would be considered in. In 2021 PlayOnline still transfers game update files one at a time, unarchived, over FTP.
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Feb 10, 2021 11:09
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I'm kind of curious what is up with every single asian game and absolutely horrendous, insecure, terrible patching and launcher systems. It's rare that I find an exception to this at all, and if there is an exception it's usually because they just bought a third party patcher solution from eg Akamai and didn't try building their own. This doesn't seem to be the case with major titles in the west; riot games pins certificates of their CDN, signs every file, validates every file's signature, hard fails if it detects any form of MITM for example. Blizzard's is decent also, etc. Let's exclude indie games here. I play all sorts of terrible MMOs and KMMOs and I've seen almost every major brand's launcher.. You have softnyx (KR) launcher downloading bare http binaries unchecked and executing them as admin, square (JP) doing whatever this FTP abomination is plus the FFXIV launcher being a ludicrously insecure shell of internet explorer (+ loading terrible fingerprinting DLLs, some machines pop up SSL errors on launch), tencent (CN) providing runs-as-admin .exes over plaintext http port 80 - they actually downgrade from https to http when providing this download This even includes asian anticheats like gameguard - you could quite literally modify your hosts file and replace their rootkit DLLs, definition files with whatever you wanted just by running a webserver on port 80 and putting the appropriate files at the right path, and it would download, use, and execute all of the contents i'm pretty sure this extends past PC too, since phantasy star online's terrible netcode was the entry point to homebrew on the gamecube [?] Impotence fucked around with this message at 12:34 on Feb 10, 2021 |
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Feb 10, 2021 12:27
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Blizzard's launcher had a vulnerability where any website you visited in a browser could connect to it and make it download and run arbitrary code. This was found because they included the private key for an SSL certificate with the launcher and a security researcher heard about that and was morbidly curious what else they were doing wrong. They initially "fixed" it by blacklisting specific browser useragents, so if you used an obscure, niche browser that they didn't block -- like, uh, Microsoft Edge -- you were still vulnerable.
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Feb 10, 2021 13:50
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Oh yeah even if I hadn't known FFXI was a console port it was very clear when I played it that time - very little to no mouse usage and almost all menu navigation. My comment was more my brother playing such a grind heavy tedious game with such horrid controls. All those years I assumed it at least controlled similar to EQ it's way different having the hands on experience of trying to finagle it.
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Feb 10, 2021 14:33
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Zaphod42 posted:I love EQ but comeon man I love the original EQ UI. 
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Feb 10, 2021 17:48
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Zaphod42 posted:https://store.steampowered.com/app/1475570/Shadowbane/ I would play this if there was a PvE only server.
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Feb 10, 2021 17:50
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I said come in! posted:I love the original EQ UI. It has its charms but it was so weird having the game world as a postage stamp.
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Feb 10, 2021 18:17
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Groovelord Neato posted:It has its charms but it was so weird having the game world as a postage stamp. That was actually kinda the part I liked the most lol. It was sort of the standard for first person RPGs at the time, but EQ took it to an extreme because of the fact that it was in full 3D and had to account for the fact that most people would be playing it on 2MB graphic cards.
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Feb 10, 2021 19:40
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I said come in! posted:I would play this if there was a PvE only server. Wouldn't be exciting though, I don't think there was any end-game pve activities. I'm not really sure I'd play it again anyway, iirc it still had some unresolved issues, like broken pathfinding on bridges and player stacking.
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Feb 10, 2021 20:21
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I guess it was because Id played some of the gold box games before playing EQ, but EQ's UI felt perfectly normal at the time. It was a pretty standard setup for late 90s dungeon crawler style games. This is why when they updated the UI to be much more customizable it was such a huge and memorable thing for me. It was the first time I ever dealt with a customizable, fairly modern video game UI. It felt super cool to be able to create a bunch of different boxes for stuff like combat text, guild chat, whispers, etc.
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Feb 10, 2021 20:22
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Everquest had a dedicated button for...standing? What?
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Feb 10, 2021 21:42
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Mr. Neutron posted:Everquest had a dedicated button for...standing? The character in that screenshot is sitting (it's a sit/stand button). You had to sit to regen mana faster.
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Feb 10, 2021 21:51
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Licarn posted:Blizzard's launcher had a vulnerability where any website you visited in a browser could connect to it and make it download and run arbitrary code. This was found because they included the private key for an SSL certificate with the launcher and a security researcher heard about that and was morbidly curious what else they were doing wrong. They initially "fixed" it by blacklisting specific browser useragents, so if you used an obscure, niche browser that they didn't block -- like, uh, Microsoft Edge -- you were still vulnerable. Also lets not forget the whole Warden program spying on everything you're running on your computer. Although I guess lots of companies do that now so everybody doesn't know or doesn't care. Mr. Neutron posted:Everquest had a dedicated button for...standing? Hey it was pretty useful! Yeah, early days of MMOs. Groovelord Neato posted:The character in that screenshot is sitting (it's a sit/stand button). You had to sit to regen mana faster. You had to actually pull out your spellbook to meditate in classic, so just sitting wasn't enough. I actually think that's kinda cool though, as it blinds you and forces the party to warn you of impending danger through chat. But you had to sit to camp and you had to camp to quit the game so sitting was pretty important regardless 
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Feb 10, 2021 22:01
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Sitting by itself did increase regen but yeah meditation increased the rate by quite a bit. I remember being so happy when I finally unlocked the skill.
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Feb 10, 2021 22:03
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And then you spend the next 35 levels staring at your spellbook in all of your down time! Until you hit level 35 and no longer have to look at your spell book to med.
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Feb 10, 2021 22:07
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My main was a gnome rogue who put all the starting points into dex because that's the rogue stat right? I couldn't even wear banded without being encumbered and I was already level 30 before I figured it out so rerolling was out of the question. Thank gently caress for Rubicite. Before see invis items were commonplace, I used to hide at the double Trent spawn in South Karana. Necros ruled this spot and it dropped a shitload of plat and Great Staffs which sold for 35 plat a pop. I'd pickpocket those summbitches all day and make thousands of plat when that amount of money was obscene. Laugh when they would bitch in OOC about them constantly dropping 1 copper each. I finally got hosed on when some monk twink was there and had some rando item that gave him see invis. Givin fucked around with this message at 22:40 on Feb 10, 2021 |
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Feb 10, 2021 22:36
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Zaphod42 posted:Also lets not forget the whole Warden program spying on everything you're running on your computer. Although I guess lots of companies do that now so everybody doesn't know or doesn't care. Blizzard actually remediated it and recognised it as an issue. The lovely launchers/anticheats do not care, and do not have to answer to anyone. Yeah that's the thing. Warden and the other western anticheats are invasive, but also pocket change compared to the absolute insanity that the KMMO-tier anticheats do. There is no CCPA or GDPR to dangle as a stick or carrot. It really sucks that this is the new norm - I don't like EAC or Battleye either, both are orders of magnitude more invasive than Warden or VAC and still useless. Riot's Vanguard lets you turn it off and just reboot again if you want to play a protected game. The following do not. Past the western ACs it's a whole other level: Full remote control access "as a feature" (think remote-desktop without the ability to decline it as a 'feature' for the game company), no encryption, no signing, running in ring 0/as a rootkit at boot, running 24/7 without the ability to turn it off, doesn't get uninstalled when you uninstall the game, no TLS/HTTPS when sending insecure exfiltrated data back, virtually no anonymisation of collected information, full names, clipboard contents, browser history searched through. The quality of code we're talking about is "I want to invent my own obfuscation instead of using anything legitimate or cryptographically secure" and "I will send the user's clipboard contents and list of all open window titles at a 30 second interval in plain text to a bare IP over the public internet" I really wish more places would actually have stuff like anomaly detection (eg: are you farming exactly 12 hours a day or something inhuman/24 hours a day? is your gold per hour significantly higher than the playerbase over time? are you entering maps that are inaccessible?) server-side instead of writing the worst possible cheap poo poo code and give the client authority to determine whether it's taken damage or not, and then package in the lowest bidder insecure rootkit with it. Impotence fucked around with this message at 22:50 on Feb 10, 2021 |
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Feb 10, 2021 22:44
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Biowarfare posted:I really wish more places would actually have stuff like anomaly detection (eg: are you farming exactly 12 hours a day or something inhuman/24 hours a day? is your gold per hour significantly higher than the playerbase over time? are you entering maps that are inaccessible?) server-side instead of writing the worst possible cheap poo poo code and give the client authority to determine whether it's taken damage or not, and then package in the lowest bidder insecure rootkit with it. I do wonder how much the server needs to genuinely needs to send to the client and how much of it is lazy/rushed development. EQ for example was pretty notorious for trusting the client quite a bit, as I recall there were various speed hacks (planetside and other SOE games too  ), plus ShowEQ highlighted just how much info the client was capable of leaking on terms of zone information and so on. I'm sure similar things existed for WoW and others.Certainly that kind of thing could be limited- I'd love to play an MMO that's been programmed a bit more defensively and not data mined to all hell and back before/if it ever leaves early access. At least then there would be a chance for fun discovery stuff. There are some hacks that would be harder to avoid, stuff like wallhacks, aimbots, and as you say inhuman automation. Even still I feel like a lot of these anticheat softwares can be subverted by having a man in the middle proxy mediating the traffic back and forth. rootkit away, jerks 
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Feb 11, 2021 02:04
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cmdrk posted:Even still I feel like a lot of these anticheat softwares can be subverted by having a man in the middle proxy mediating the traffic back and forth. rootkit away, jerks This was actually what happened to PUBG - they didn't encrypt traffic at all, so you could have an observer on the LAN (or set up a VPN on your network) sniff all your traffic and be map exact positions from it, relative minimap positions, etc. Basically zero-software-on-machine walling. Instead of not sending the positions of everyone within a 10000km radius, their obvious response to this was to ban you if you had any developer tools running, OpenVPN, Visual Studio, VMware Workstation, Docker, Virtualbox, WSL, Wireshark, VMware Fusion, running on a Mac in Boot camp, Firefox Developer Edition, etc. I guess a lot of this circles back to "it'll cost us $0.01 more to do this on the server!!!" - I am kinda desperate for a MMO that doesn't have data mining and has discovery
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Feb 11, 2021 02:13
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Making the client thin helps with cheating but doesn't necessarily help with data mining so much because you still have to have all the content client-side for rendering. You can keep some information server-side, and/or encrypt some things, but character model and animation data has to exist somewhere. Makes it really hard to keep things fully secret. Whatever you end up doing is just a arms race with the internet, so I think most companies figure its not worth it. But poo poo could be better, for sure.
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Feb 11, 2021 04:22
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Biowarfare posted:I am kinda desperate for a MMO that doesn't have data mining and has discovery
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Feb 11, 2021 05:10
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Just don't look at online databases?
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Feb 11, 2021 05:18
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Zaphod42 posted:Making the client thin helps with cheating but doesn't necessarily help with data mining so much because you still have to have all the content client-side for rendering. I wonder if a streaming service like what Google is doing with Stradia might one day be a solution to this. I realize that kind of solution brings with it a whole ton of other problems but it seems like the only way to keep players from mining content along with a whole lot of other bad behavior.
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Feb 11, 2021 05:26
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jokes posted:Just don't look at online databases?
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Feb 11, 2021 06:18
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Biowarfare posted:I really wish more places would actually have stuff like anomaly detection (eg: are you farming exactly 12 hours a day or something inhuman/24 hours a day? is your gold per hour significantly higher than the playerbase over time? are you entering maps that are inaccessible?) server-side instead of writing the worst possible cheap poo poo code and give the client authority to determine whether it's taken damage or not, and then package in the lowest bidder insecure rootkit with it. Basically the only way companies will do this is if they start hemorrhaging support because of it or a better solution becomes cheaper, and I might seem like a pessimist but I don't really think either will happen, at least not for big studios.
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Feb 11, 2021 11:51
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cmdrk posted:I do wonder how much the server needs to genuinely needs to send to the client and how much of it is lazy/rushed development. EQ for example was pretty notorious for trusting the client quite a bit, as I recall there were various speed hacks (planetside and other SOE games too Biowarfare posted:I really wish more places would actually have stuff like anomaly detection (eg: are you farming exactly 12 hours a day or something inhuman/24 hours a day? is your gold per hour significantly higher than the playerbase over time? are you entering maps that are inaccessible?) server-side instead of writing the worst possible cheap poo poo code and give the client authority to determine whether it's taken damage or not, and then package in the lowest bidder insecure rootkit with it.
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Feb 11, 2021 13:19
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DapperDraculaDeer posted:I wonder if a streaming service like what Google is doing with Stradia might one day be a solution to this. I realize that kind of solution brings with it a whole ton of other problems but it seems like the only way to keep players from mining content along with a whole lot of other bad behavior. Its true, that would be A solution. If your game exists on Stadia and Stadia ONLY, then you could add all kinds of content and players wouldn't have any way of data mining (unless they hack Stadia somehow) But that's a pretty brutal tradeoff. I think there's more clever solutions out there that don't require giving up doing any client-side rendering, but they take more work.
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Feb 11, 2021 22:33
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