Buck Wildman posted:

and the NAP. makes ya think

Dreddout posted:

I know his meaning and it's still serves as a way for other members of the global north to extradite themselves from America, to pretend as if their country isn't subservient to the US

indigi posted:

they’re anarchish, which I think is a very reasonable way of doing things. compromise among the left (not socdems) is good

Yossarian-22 posted:

the fact is that whatever tendency you identify as you're likely just a middle class shitposter online who has nothing to do with the liberation of the proletariat anyway, so you get mad at settlers or horseshoes or crypto liberals or whatever you feel like is the fake left

GoLambo posted:

Anarchism may have plenty of intellectual or self actualizing value to a lot of people but the way it's practiced in the US does not meaningfully contribute to seizing power from capital and then, get this, wielding that power on behalf of the working class.

Yossarian-22 posted:

the fact is that whatever tendency you identify as you're likely just a middle class shitposter online who has nothing to do with the liberation of the proletariat anyway, so you get mad at settlers or horseshoes or crypto liberals or whatever you feel like is the fake left

jarofpiss posted:

who is this about?

GoLambo posted:

It's just taking a bunch of liberalized subjects and letting them pat each other on the back about how moral they are

GoLambo posted:

There is a urgency of action required to confront capital that dwarfs the concerns of revolutionary sate overreach

GoLambo posted:

Let me throw this out there. I'm minimum wage working poor, not everyone posting here failed upwords into a cushy tech job. So like I don't just want communism, I need communism or this poo poo will likely kill me real early anyway. Anarchist solutions are an Actual Joke because there is barely even an attempt to mass mobilize labor to accomplish political goals, literally the only political action worth doing at all.

I have a real distaste for american "anarchists" on the organizing front because you have to be really loving privileged in terms of skills, personality, or access to resources to actually meaningfully utilize the kind of spaces anarchists actually foster. living off a meager charity just rots your brain, so just loving whatever when it comes to the marginal "mutual aid" floating around out there. there is little real class consciousness developed from it, it's not like you can actually put any trust into the institutional character of any particular anarchist project (because none of them have any actual loving power or resources anyway), just a kind of slow marginalized rot from either direction. like it turns out "existing outside capitalism" isn't actually a loving boon but a cruse unless you are uniquely adapted to take advantage of it anyway. Wage labor is still significantly safer and more self actualizing then failing to be a culture fit for a bunch of boisterous insular politics nerds. If you are dependent on what passes for mutual aid you are as hosed as anyone else in a position to rely on charity, being fed by an aid org does not loving empower you because you are just waiting to die slower. big fuckin whoop. If you don't end up with the bosses keys it doesn't matter much in the end.

Seizing actual political power is the only goddamned thing I care about, and it's drat near the one thing on the ground american anarchists oppose because they are brainwashed by anti-communist propaganda. I'm utterly dependent on commodity access, and that means I have to sell my labor. The social controls enacted by the state that anarchists are always whining about are either culture war bullshit that every person has to skirt around (and likely always will) or they fall entirely under the preview of labor relations and access to resources. The endless whining about whatever the gently caress a "state" is in particular has very little actual impact compared to oh I dunno, all those previous material and social conditions already so clearly established. I care about my relation to these things insofar as they related to political action in my class interest. Anarchism may have plenty of intellectual or self actualizing value to a lot of people but the way it's practiced in the US does not meaningfully contribute to seizing power from capital and then, get this, wielding that power on behalf of the working class. It's just taking a bunch of liberalized subjects and letting them pat each other on the back about how moral they are. I want my loving check, I want my apartment, I want my healthcare. M-L's have a pretty solid track record of providing those things and anarchists are batting a big loving zero on that front. There is a urgency of action required to confront capital that dwarfs the concerns of revolutionary sate overreach or whatever because the alternative is a loving climate apocalypse anyway, the status quo is untenable. The boot is already stomping on my face at an accelerating pace, you cannot possibly get me to give a poo poo about warnings that it might turn around and happen again.

Orange Devil posted:

The problem here is Americans, not Anarchism, op

Stinky Wizzleteats posted:

im ok on history that cant really be known because of the victors who wrote it

Yossarian-22 posted:

i don't feel like the future of the working class hinges on the "left," on "organizers," or on any grouping of people with pretensions of being the true representatives of the working class

Yossarian-22 posted:

the fact is that whatever tendency you identify as you're likely just a middle class shitposter online who has nothing to do with the liberation of the proletariat anyway, so you get mad at settlers or horseshoes or crypto liberals or whatever you feel like is the fake left

Orange Devil posted:

The problem here is Americans, not Anarchism, op

Ferrinus posted:

this is true insofar as anarchism itself is basically an american affectation

The Oldest Man posted:

While this is true for many there are a couple French Algerians and others kicking around in here occasionally who I would definitely not call crypto liberals irl since I don't want to get stabbed.

Orange Devil posted:

Lol wut?

The Oldest Man posted:

Yeah there is no possibility of a legitimate revolutionary movement in the US until the empire actually collapses in real terms

Ferrinus posted:

GoLambo posted:

M-L's have a pretty solid track record of providing those things and anarchists are batting a big loving zero on that front.

Kaedric posted:

[citation needed]

Ferrinus posted:

Kaedric posted:

Was more referring to america, specifically. Since the guy has a huge chip on his shoulder about anarchists making sure people survive instead of leaving them to die (???) if it doesn't result in capitalism imploding, I assume some evidence of MLs doing ...well anything? would be forthcoming

There's a reason the armchair leftist theory-reader is a meme

indigi posted:

plenty of French people thought this in 1788, plenty of Russians thought this in 1916. no one can anticipate inevitable waves of change

indigi posted:

do you truly think there are no ML orgs in America who do mutual aid stuff

Raqqa Flocka Flame posted:

Was radicalized to anarchism by friends as a teen during the Iraq War. Spent my 20s doing the homeless crust-punk thing, found anarchists in nearly every metro in American city doing something (couldn't say the same for communist orgs at the time, but if that's changed in the past decade let me know), and while that something always fell well short of the task of revolution, criticizing any revolutionary group on those grounds in the US is like criticizing an infant for failing to be an adult. I poured many years and a lot of emotional energy into those anarchist projects, even did time, some of it was worth it, most wasn't. I'm pretty ready to join a vanguard party at this point, but most of them seem even smaller and more insular than the anarchist milieu I've been floating around for all my adult life. Someone please DM me when a communist group breaks 100k membership here, I'm not picky, thanks.

Kaedric posted:

Was more referring to america, specifically. Since the guy has a huge chip on his shoulder about anarchists making sure people survive instead of leaving them to die (???) if it doesn't result in capitalism imploding, I assume some evidence of MLs doing ...well anything? would be forthcoming

There's a reason the armchair leftist theory-reader is a meme

Kaedric posted:

The original statement was that MLs GET poo poo DONE and my impression is that is not the case in america


P much this

skewetoo posted:

Haha sick smipe

The Oldest Man posted:

Yeah there is no possibility of a legitimate revolutionary movement in the US until the empire actually collapses in real terms so w/e argue about your favorite t-shirt color

Kaedric posted:

The original statement was that MLs GET poo poo DONE and my impression is that is not the case in america

Rimusutera posted:

The Bolsheviks and basically every other group were doing decades of preparatory work before 1917 broke things wide open, so it doesn't really make any sense to make takes like this.