|
Skwirl posted:If you wanna get really esoteric, in X-Men #1 he's the only one not excited about there finally being a girl in their previously all boys school. I believe that's more a product of either the simplistic "Eww girls are gross" mindset they probably thought the target audience of the book had or a backwards "Ugh a dame? Really?" mindset prevalent in those times. Maybe a bit of both.
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2021 14:56
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 5, 2024 14:19 |
|
|
I'm sure there's plenty of things you can read in to if you want, but unlike some other characters in X-Books, I don't think any writers intended for Iceman to be queer in any way.
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2021 15:08
|
|
|
X-O posted:I believe that's more a product of either the simplistic "Eww girls are gross" mindset they probably thought the target audience of the book had or a backwards "Ugh a dame? Really?" mindset prevalent in those times. Maybe a bit of both. It is this yes. Endless Mike posted:I'm sure there's plenty of things you can read in to if you want, but unlike some other characters in X-Books, I don't think any writers intended for Iceman to be queer in any way. Look at people wanting the Human Torch to be gay because he yells flame on to light on fire.
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2021 15:09
|
|
|
Bobby being gay was a huge fan thing in the aughts, the sort of thing that you'd see on scans_daily although as if with many interesting and enduring things from s_d it was in some ways an exercise in creative reading as much as anything else. I presume that most writers from at least Stan Lee through Louis Simonson with the slim possible exception of DeMatteis and Gillis were writing Iceman as a straight guy without giving it too much thought, but the theory was circulating for at least a few years before Bendis had him come out and it did have a fair bit of fan traction. I think Marjorie Liu is the first writer to say she was explicitly writing him as a closeted gay man although iirc that may have been a bit of backtracking on her part. Post-Lobdell-- who had a little road-trip subplot between Iceman and Rogue that often seemed like it was setting up some kind of big disclosure on Bobby's part-- a lot of writers flirted with the idea while hewing to a degree of plausible deniability. Chuck Austen has him go out on a date unwittingly with Northstar, PAD has him briefly flirt with Shatterstar, etc.. How Wonderful! fucked around with this message at 15:28 on Feb 12, 2021 |
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2021 15:18
|
|
|
Oh for sure, Bobby being gay absolutely has roots in both the books and in fan theory circles way before Bendis actually did it. I just can't see how anyone would think it goes back to that first issue of X-Men. I mean you can reframe that with hindsight but it was definitely not even in the realm of being subtext at that time.
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2021 16:11
|
|
|
Yeah, I think the idea in X-Men #1 is he's the baby of the group, and because writers in general are a bit fuzzy on age vs behaviour for kids, him being a younger teen equated to still thinking girls have cooties, while Scott, Warren and Hank are 'old enough' to be interested in romance/sex.
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2021 16:44
|
|
|
To me, Bobby's eugh-reaction in the first issue always read as meant as a younger-boy "ew girls in the clubhouse" response to contrast with the other three, even though he wasn't that young at the time.
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2021 16:47
|
|
|
Well, I hunted down the page Jay was talking about and it's Bobby with Jean going "I wanna talk to you about ... well ... you know?" and then later in the book they are talking about him being worried about still being mind controlled by Emma Frost.
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2021 17:05
|
|
|
Random Stranger posted:Amazing Fantasy 15 definitely wasn't intended to be the last issue, despite Stan Lee's later stories of fitting Spider-Man in because the book was doomed. AF switched to an all Ditko book (and was promoted as such!) with issue 10, so when Ditko was eventually tapped to draw Spider-Man it was only natural for the character to debut there. Issue 15 has an editorial page on it asking readers for what they want to see in future issues; almost definitely a prompt for them to go, " Thankfully I'm already well aware of how that all works out down the road, or at least the Cliff Notes version Besides I'm soon going to be reaching the Human Torch solo stories, that's where the real pain is at Skwirl posted:If you wanna get really esoteric, in X-Men #1 he's the only one not excited about there finally being a girl in their previously all boys school. Well he's also the youngest so it's possible he just hadn't really hit that point yet
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2021 20:11
|
|
|
X-O posted:I believe that's more a product of either the simplistic "Eww girls are gross" mindset they probably thought the target audience of the book had or a backwards "Ugh a dame? Really?" mindset prevalent in those times. Maybe a bit of both. I think at the time it was to help indicate Bobby was the youngest of the group, so yeah "Eww, girls are gross" but it reads slightly different now. I gotta say, when it happened I thought Bendis outed Bobby in a very bad way, but now that better writers have dealt with it it's a pretty cool bit of character development
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2021 20:22
|
|
|
I think people didn't like how it was framed as Jean outing him 'for his own good' instead of what I think Bendis might have been aiming for, her being a confidante.
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2021 20:24
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/KrakoaWelcomes/status/1360308692554567682?s=20
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2021 20:30
|
|
Gaz-L posted:I think people didn't like how it was framed as Jean outing him 'for his own good' instead of what I think Bendis might have been aiming for, her being a confidante. There's definitely some people who still view it as bi erasure for retconning all those relationships he had with women as him forcing himself to be straight. Which is fair enough, most big two comic book characters who are bisexual still fall into the unfortunate stereotype of being hedonists who will sleep with anything because they're so horny, rather than just normal people who happen to love across the spectrum.
|
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2021 22:05
|
|
|
Lurdiak posted:There's definitely some people who still view it as bi erasure for retconning all those relationships he had with women as him forcing himself to be straight. Which is fair enough, most big two comic book characters who are bisexual still fall into the unfortunate stereotype of being hedonists who will sleep with anything because they're so horny, rather than just normal people who happen to love across the spectrum. I think the bi erasure is a fair complaint, but there's a poo poo ton of openly bi characters in X-Men now.
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2021 22:27
|
|
|
Male-identifying? Like, there's Shatterstar and Daken, but the latter definitely falls into the 'amoral hedonist that sleeps with anyone' territory. Most of the others that jump to mind are women.
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2021 22:49
|
|
|
Gaz-L posted:Male-identifying? Like, there's Shatterstar and Daken, but the latter definitely falls into the 'amoral hedonist that sleeps with anyone' territory. Most of the others that jump to mind are women. Prodigy, Rictor, he's not open but almost certainly Logan, Shinobi Shaw, Quintin Quire.
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2021 22:54
|
|
|
Skwirl posted:Prodigy, Rictor. Prodigy is fair, I just associate him more with the Young Avengers now.
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2021 22:55
|
|
|
Gaz-L posted:Prodigy is fair, I just associate him more with the Young Avengers now. He's in X-Factor.
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2021 22:55
|
|
Skwirl posted:I think the bi erasure is a fair complaint, but there's a poo poo ton of openly bi characters in X-Men now. If that's where Marvel's hiding them that explains why I haven't heard.
|
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2021 23:02
|
|
|
I don't know how to feel about the bi erasure argument because the other side of that is ignoring the experience of the many gay people who really do date the opposite gender before coming out. That doesn't make them less gay
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2021 23:09
|
|
|
Lurdiak posted:If that's where Marvel's hiding them that explains why I haven't heard. I just posted a big list. Most of the New Mutants are bi or LGTB+ even if they won't admit it. X-Men has historically been the queerest big two comic.
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2021 23:11
|
|
|
I mean, even just from the major X-Men, you've got Kate Pryde and Storm. And Rachel Summers probably counts in that list too.
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2021 23:14
|
|
|
Gaz-L posted:I mean, even just from the major X-Men, you've got Kate Pryde and Storm. And Rachel Summers probably counts in that list too. I always read Storm as straight, just because I think there should be examples of powerful same sex friendships between heterosexuals without any sexual aspect. You can just be friends with people, like Storm and Jean Grey. Or have a complicated history with someone that ends up being mutual respect and not want to gently caress them, like Storm and Callisto.
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2021 23:19
|
|
|
Isn't it Yukio that's usually held up as the example of Storm being bi?
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2021 23:22
|
|
|
Gaz-L posted:Isn't it Yukio that's usually held up as the example of Storm being bi? I haven't read that arc in a long time, were there tender moments or just Storm being protective of someone vulnerable? Like Kate Pryde very obviously had a huge crush on Storm in the Claremont era, but Storm always acted as a custodian and teacher towards her.
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2021 23:25
|
|
|
Skwirl posted:I always read Storm as straight, just because I think there should be examples of powerful same sex friendships between heterosexuals without any sexual aspect. Friends that take baths with each other? Did you forget the arena?
|
|
#
?
Feb 13, 2021 00:26
|
|
|
Skwirl posted:I haven't read that arc in a long time, were there tender moments or just Storm being protective of someone vulnerable? No, it's really hard to not read it as sexual. And a big thing is that arc is Yukio getting Storm to open up to her true self.
|
|
#
?
Feb 13, 2021 00:33
|
|
|
Random Stranger posted:No, it's really hard to not read it as sexual. And a big thing is that arc is Yukio getting Storm to open up to her true self. Mea Culpa then, was that right before she first did the mohawk?
|
|
#
?
Feb 13, 2021 00:38
|
|
|
Skwirl posted:Mea Culpa then, was that right before she first did the mohawk? She got the mohawk in that storyline. Storm showed up for Wolverine's wedding to a conservative Japanese woman wearing an outdated punk rocker outfit and a fresh mohawk. I get the need for a change, Ororo, but read the situation.
|
|
#
?
Feb 13, 2021 00:51
|
|
|
I think it's easy to assume people, esepcially queer and femme identifying people, saw the mohawk look and went "step on me with those Docs, queen", but Claremont definitely had a thing for writing WLW stuff.
|
|
#
?
Feb 13, 2021 00:55
|
|
|
I guess when I think about Storm and her relationships with other women the three that come mind most readily are her and Kate Pryde, which is a mentorship thing, Jean Grey, two peers who respect each other deeply, and Callisto, which is a frenemy/respect thing, Callisto acknowledges that Storm beat her in that sewer and Storm acknowledges that no one else has ever come as close to beating her. I do like that Callisto went through the crucible and resurrection to get her mutant powers and still has an eye patch. Did she tell the five before the crucible she wanted to still be missing an eye or is she wearing a patch over a perfectly working eye? Air Skwirl fucked around with this message at 01:03 on Feb 13, 2021 |
|
#
?
Feb 13, 2021 01:01
|
|
|
Skwirl posted:I guess when I think about Storm and her relationships with other women the three that come mind most readily are her and Kate Pryde, which is a mentorship thing, Jean Grey, two peers who respect each other deeply, and Callisto, which is a frenemy/respect thing, Callisto acknowledges that Storm beat her in that sewer and Storm acknowledges that no one else has ever come as close to beating her. It's a pretty long-distance shot so it might just be a slip-up but I believe in the first panel post-Crucible in the most recent Marauders you see her standing on the beach without an eyepatch. Of course she has one on in a close-up on the very same page so who knows.
|
|
#
?
Feb 13, 2021 01:10
|
|
|
Speaking of Iceman, is he still struggling with realizing his potential?
|
|
#
?
Feb 13, 2021 02:46
|
|
|
Skwirl posted:I guess when I think about Storm and her relationships with other women the three that come mind most readily are her and Kate Pryde, which is a mentorship thing, Jean Grey, two peers who respect each other deeply, and Callisto, which is a frenemy/respect thing, Callisto acknowledges that Storm beat her in that sewer and Storm acknowledges that no one else has ever come as close to beating her. Once again there was the time in which the two were in a bath tub and Callisto had tentacles and they were all over storm
|
|
#
?
Feb 13, 2021 03:04
|
|
|
bobkatt013 posted:Once again there was the time in which the two were in a bath tub and Callisto had tentacles and they were all over storm That's totally normal heterosexual companionship.
|
|
#
?
Feb 13, 2021 03:06
|
|
|
storm irl
|
|
#
?
Feb 13, 2021 03:23
|
|
|
site posted:storm irl Who are the other people in the drawing? Like it could be Calisto on the right (though I kinda thinks she would have a bunch of sacrs) but no idea on who the dude would be, She don't truck with white boys generally. Air Skwirl fucked around with this message at 03:28 on Feb 13, 2021 |
|
#
?
Feb 13, 2021 03:26
|
|
|
forge and yukio
|
|
#
?
Feb 13, 2021 03:26
|
|
|
site posted:forge and yukio Forge ain't white.
|
|
#
?
Feb 13, 2021 03:28
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 5, 2024 14:19 |
|
|
hey i didnt color it
|
|
#
?
Feb 13, 2021 03:35
|
|