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I never got round to buying Wood Elves so the new DLC feels very fresh to me and they're fun to play, but I love the campaign mechanic of teleporting around the world to pick a fight with whoever you want.
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Feb 13, 2021 13:36
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a simple and realistic nerf to range would just be having them lose damage the longer they are in the air, and have it vary by projectile type. if i was going to put in screening id have line of sight maybe be more relevant than it currently is. blocking off sight entirely might be too harsh but i would like to see something akin to a midway point where just know a unit is there and not specifically which unit it is, or being able to hide a foot lord in the middle of an infantry bloc or some cute things like that. but then again, its something that the AI would have a lot of problems with; it already plays super dumb when units vanish from their sight for whatever reason. there is a bit of strangeness where you do lose power firing uphill but you can actually shoot further technically because range is not affected by height, and vice versa for downhill shooting. its all kind of funny business. i dont even know if things are excluded from that; it doesnt really make sense for a rocket to hit more or less hard depending on height but whatever.
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Feb 13, 2021 13:39
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Was the melee vs ranged infantry dynamic better in Shogun 2 because infantry would mix for 1v1 combat, or am I just imagining things? Tiler Kiwi posted:lizardmen and their love of purges do put a strain on the commonly held idea that order == good 
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Feb 13, 2021 13:41
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I don't think Dwarfs should get a cavalry equivalent. Yeah, it's a major weakness, but that's what keeps the factions distinct.
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Feb 13, 2021 13:42
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dwarfs are very dense and snap the spines of all animals they try to ride. they have entire stables of goats, ponies, and other creatures that they routinely sit upon and paralyze for life. they call it a tradition. also their beards are all fake, they made them out of gnomes, which is why they never shave as they are unable to grow them back and they've driven gnomes to near extinction with their non sustainable beard stealing practices. these are the true-real facts the dwarf-things dont WANT you to know!!!
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Feb 13, 2021 13:47
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Vargs posted:I don't think Dwarfs should get a cavalry equivalent. Yeah, it's a major weakness, but that's what keeps the factions distinct. I'm in a similar mindset as to why they shouldn't get Rune Golems. It'd feel weird to me if they got Monstrous units (although if they got added I wouldn't dismayed). Thunderbarges though? I want some Dwarf boardside bombardments in my game.
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Feb 13, 2021 13:48
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Shumagorath posted:Was the melee vs ranged infantry dynamic better in Shogun 2 because infantry would mix for 1v1 combat, or am I just imagining things? Ranged was really powerful in Shogun 2 and would tear apart most units really quickly* if you let them. The thing that sort of countered it IIRC was basically the fact that you had this tightly designed unit rosters and there were many fast infantry and cavalry units which could pressure and attack ranged units. *Shogun 2 probably had the fastest battles of any title in the series.
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Feb 13, 2021 13:48
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Upping the effectivess of armor against ranged could probably help some. The dwarf start where your elite hammerers lose half their hp and a couple models to goblin archer fire, or where you learn that the solution to black orcs is just a bunch of crossbows, is a good intro into how ranged works in the game Non elite or armor piercing ranged should have more trouble with heavily armored troops, right now all you have to do is mass a bit more fire
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Feb 13, 2021 13:52
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yeah an army of samurai archers could make absolute mincemeat out of anything that tried to walk at them. e: part of the issue with ranged AP is just that they dont have to make any sort of check to hit a unit, unlike AP melee, and all the archers in the unit can apply damage instead of units in contact, so even a trivial amount of AP (like, 3) is enough to seriously start chunking down whatever gets close. and even non AP damage is not stopped entirely, only reduced by armor, so unless you've got a lot of it versus non AP ranged its going to still wear out your units. AND units that tend to have high armor also tend to stand around in tight formations and there is no loose formation option because take a hike, bozo. The only thing that can increase survival times versus a significant portion of ranged fire is a shield. why can a gobbo's wooden shield stop a magic arrow or bullet that can punch thru plate armor with ease? i dunno. e2: i will say its less a problem in multiplayer for a lot of reasons, mainly in that players generally will go after your ranged assets super hard since leaving them alone is a great way to lose a battle in a hurry. sometimes you see horribly nasty skirmisher armies but those tend to take a lot of micro Tiler Kiwi fucked around with this message at 14:04 on Feb 13, 2021 |
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Feb 13, 2021 13:52
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I really feel like implementing mechanics for screening, damage loss for projectiles over distance and in general just cutting down on ridiculously arched volleys (again it's not realistic, and yeah Warhams is not realistic, but I'd be happy if Total War in general got away from it) should be a priority for Total War going forwards.
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Feb 13, 2021 14:01
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you can... kind of screen, by just having your chaff infantry forward enough so they can walk at the enemy ranged and force them back and hopefully waste time shooting the cheap infantry instead of what you care about. archers in total war have omnivision tho and can nail things they can't see at all, it is very rude. although, given how downright fiddly and micro intensive LOS firing rules can be (thanks gettysburg), I can't really blame them that much for keeping it simple. i think its more a fault of difficulty not impacting your ranged units damage output and the AI being very lazy about actually pressuring ranged assets thats a problem, although I feel bad for those elite heavy infantry even when I'm the one shredding them.
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Feb 13, 2021 14:15
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terrorist ambulance posted:Upping the effectivess of armor against ranged could probably help some. The dwarf start where your elite hammerers lose half their hp and a couple models to goblin archer fire, or where you learn that the solution to black orcs is just a bunch of crossbows, is a good intro into how ranged works in the game If you implemented damage falling off over distance you could make it work so that AP missile damage falls off harder with distance than non-AP missile damage, which would be a pretty good indirect boost to heavy armor. Tiler Kiwi posted:you can... kind of screen, by just having your chaff infantry forward enough so they can walk at the enemy ranged and force them back and hopefully waste time shooting the cheap infantry instead of what you care about. Yeah, which is why I think a non-LOS solution would probably be better (or at least simpler) I mentoned where your ranged accuracy is penalized if you target units that are not your closest available range targets that are in range and LOS (probably with some sanity checks), with more elite units being exempt. Randarkman fucked around with this message at 14:19 on Feb 13, 2021 |
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Feb 13, 2021 14:16
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Tiler Kiwi posted:Still, they should do a package deal for the old games and their DLC. It got to be the problem for paradox games too where you'd take a look at the price tag of the game + dlc and decide to take a hike instead. This is my stance. I'd like to try more of this series, and still follow this thread because I enjoy watching Turin's casts and I like the setting, but when the complete version of the original game at 75% off is still almost sixty bucks, that's more than my gaming budget allows for. I miss the days when after a few years games would get knocked down to thirty or forty bucks base, and you could get them on a Christmas or summer sale for five.
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Feb 13, 2021 14:22
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Tiler Kiwi posted:a simple and realistic nerf to range would just be having them lose damage the longer they are in the air, and have it vary by projectile type. If all of that over-nerfs ranged, you can give them bonus AP damage at close range I guess, or give arcing fire a bit more range (but at the cost of doing 0 AP) E: vvvv when WH2 was released, gunpowder troops would walk into melee instead of shooting like 90% of the time, because they changed how ranged units targeting enemy units, iirc. Multiplayer survived. WH2 is also when units could fire in whatever floating parabola you wanted, while in WH1 crossbows could arc but nothing like they can now. WH3 seems like the perfect time to redo how ranged fire works since there is going to be a massive amount of imbalance anyway, and demons that just vanish beneath storms of arrows is kinda anticlimactic. Ravenfood fucked around with this message at 14:52 on Feb 13, 2021 |
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Feb 13, 2021 14:40
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I think the main issue with ranged balance is that it's actually pretty balanced in multiplayer, so any change to core values is potentially gonna a have some huge impact on that. IMO, the way to go is to tweak the values of the campaign lord skills, as well as the difficulty modifiers.
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Feb 13, 2021 14:44
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Still really think that ranged needs to slowly replenish ammo over several turns like health replenishment, rather than getting 100% back after every battle. Wouldn't affect mp balance at all but would make ranged units take attrition over successive fights in the same way that melee does.
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Feb 13, 2021 14:55
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Or maybe it's okay to just accept that bronze age melee infantry is not viable in a world of elven magic archers, exploding doomrockets and giant monsters.
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Feb 13, 2021 14:57
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Broken Cog posted:I think the main issue with ranged balance is that it's actually pretty balanced in multiplayer, so any change to core values is potentially gonna a have some huge impact on that. Multiplayer balance is probably going to be more or less reset with WH3 anyways, so getting in some nerfs, adjustments and engine improvements would be good.
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Feb 13, 2021 14:59
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Broken Cog posted:I think the main issue with ranged balance is that it's actually pretty balanced in multiplayer, so any change to core values is potentially gonna a have some huge impact on that. The issue isn't with values of skills and difficulty modifiers (though that compounds it) it's the mechanics that are pretty core to the game design right now, like how even low-AP ranged can murder armored units and how ranged fire combines to make coompoundingly strong effects. Also like I and others said above, if you're going to blow up balance it might as well be when you're launching a new game that'll blow it up anyway. Especially when 4 out of your 6 starting factions are going to be melee heavy and having them just vanish kinda sucks.
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Feb 13, 2021 15:55
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Hungry posted:Dwarfs need something, but even having playing like 100+ hours of them, I couldn't tell you what. Josef bugman posted:It's something that could serve as cavalry. It's anything that can go faster than "slower than loving treacle in winter". I have a different opinion - Dawi need better artillery. If they aren't going to be able to use maneuverable units and/or summons to disrupt backlines, then they just need to always win when it comes down to a shootout so they can force the opponents to come to them consistently. I also think that they need better buttons to press in battle; other races have really fun magical buttons, or even fun non-"magical" buttons (Empire Warrior Priests). The Dawi buttons are kinda boring buttons even though they're not unbalanced or weak. They also need a figurehead single-entity unit, or perhaps a low-count "monstrous"-type unit. Tirranek posted:Out of the loop recently, but is the last DLC likely to be Beastmen, what with the whole 'before Chaos come the Breyherds' thing? That seems to be the common assumption, but I personally think that CA is going to wait until the third game releases. Their rework is likely to tie into the mechanics/units of the Demons, and as I said I think that Neferata is basically a requisite to add in the same game as Khalida. Thunder Moose posted:The evil dryad LL let's you recruit wolves and spiders. Also gives tree ppl frenzy. Those aren't playable in MP, and aren't universal to the roster. Her campaign is very fun though!
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Feb 13, 2021 16:25
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sauer kraut posted:Or maybe it's okay to just accept that bronze age melee infantry is not viable in a world of elven magic archers, exploding doomrockets and giant monsters. Or human, non-magic archers? Even if we assume melee infantry is supposed to be non-viable in single player and meant only for the AI and a trap option for the player, why is that good design?
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Feb 13, 2021 16:29
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Id love to see a dwarf rune golem to match the greenskin Rogue Idol
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Feb 13, 2021 16:32
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I think that reworking how archers function would do a lot for the dwarves, but I would also really like their runecrafting and runesmithing to be more powerful and fun.
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Feb 13, 2021 16:48
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I hate playing dwarves because it ends up feeling like I have to fight 2-3 more battles per army to actually wipe them out. The extreme lack of ways to kill retreating enemies on them sucks. The best you have is hoping your artillery still has shots and can hit them. Meanwhile basically every other faction in the game can reduce entire stacks to 5-6 unit cards in the first fight. I'm not sure what I would solve this with, but I think it makes them annoying to play as. I don't wanna fight the same army 3 times to finally wipe it out.
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Feb 13, 2021 16:48
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Dwarf motorcycles with lances attached to the front is the only possible reasonable way of fixing the Dwarfs. We literally have no other options.
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Feb 13, 2021 16:54
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Ammo being a campaign level replenishment mechanic is a really deft way to curb the power of range spam. My 2 cents though, Campaign layer: Combine military recruitment buildings or reduce their cost so its possible to actually recruit a diverse army earlier on. Battle layer: Shielded infantry across the board should have 90% missile resistance. Shooting into shields should be really ineffective unless you're hitting them in their rear or flanks. Ranged infantry need to be far less sturdy in melee - apart from say Dwarfs, especially against cavalry. I shouldn't lose a single Reiksguard model to Empire Crossbows in melee. All light cavalry should have strider, I'd gladly trade away guerilla deployment for no terrain penalties. 99pct of germs fucked around with this message at 17:06 on Feb 13, 2021 |
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Feb 13, 2021 17:03
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I kinda want to see an Empire/Dwarf hybrid army, both because the friendship is a cool part of the lore (One of the tenents of the Cult of Sigmar is that you should respect dwarves), and becasue you never get so see the cross faction matchups that get hinted at in some of the mission battles in a real campaign. Also handgunners shooting over the heads of dwarf warriors in melee would rule.
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Feb 13, 2021 17:16
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I think part of the reason they are hesitant to nerf ranged is fear of making large single entities even stronger.
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Feb 13, 2021 17:23
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I think having campaign replenishment of ammunition makes sense, but if they make ranged suck because people can't keep themselves from using meme builds in singleplayer I'm going to be sad.
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Feb 13, 2021 17:27
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I dont know posted:I think part of the reason they are hesitant to nerf ranged is fear of making large single entities even stronger. Anti large melees do a decent enough job imo, at least from my experience.
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Feb 13, 2021 17:35
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I dont know posted:I think part of the reason they are hesitant to nerf ranged is fear of making large single entities even stronger. Could just make infantry and cavalry better at dealing with them. Steal charge reflect from 3K or nerf single entity health since if ranged is nerfed, they don't need to have quite so much health just to even make it into melee. Ravenfood fucked around with this message at 17:38 on Feb 13, 2021 |
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Feb 13, 2021 17:35
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mind you ranged units already have a lot of weaknesses but the issue more is that they're also not hampered at all on the player's side on higher difficulties and also the good ranged units get insanely lethal on higher difficulty in the AI's hands due to increased rate of fire and the AI being able to micro them all perfectly. also a lot of the campaign buffs or quirks you get ease a lot of their bigger flaws or give them different advantages (the more elite stuff runs out of ammo a lot faster but ammo buffs eliminate that problem, they have less model count and health but the AI doesn't target them very well, they take virtually no losses in winning battles which matters a great deal more in campaign than in MP, they're generally a bit more expensive than same tier melee stuff but on campaign it doesnt really impact you much, and maybe a few other things i dont recall) still even in MP they do a disproportionate amount of your value, generally, if they're not shut down
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Feb 13, 2021 17:38
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I do want to say that the lizardmen in game are characterized in a way that's at odds with their tabletop representation in a lot of ways. Like, the saurus in tabletop are cold-blooded, not basically feral (it is extremely difficult to make them scared, angry or the like). As for the Slann and the rest, they may have strange priorities that cause havoc sometimes and are very, very insular, but they're not purge-happy towards non-chaos. With the exception of Mazdimundi, who is as big a massive rear end in a top hat as he is in total war.
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Feb 13, 2021 17:40
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I dont know posted:I think part of the reason they are hesitant to nerf ranged is fear of making large single entities even stronger. If you can adjust and somewhat nerf the ability of ranged units to focus down any target as long as they are in range with some simple screening mechanics, damage and AP drop offs with distance and maybe reduced capability to arc shots in general, then I think it's safe to say that large single entities could stand to take a hit to their hit points and and in general take some nerf to make them more vulnerable in melee to counterbalance what would a reduction in the effectivness of ranged focus fire.
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Feb 13, 2021 18:04
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I do feel like Dwarfs need something more to do on the campaign layer. Personally I'd like to see more of a mechanical focus on reclaiming the holds, rebuilding the underway, etc. The largest dwarf holds are meant to be these giant underground cities, with mile after mile occupied by goblins and Skaven and worse. Perhaps some kind of system where you have to fight underground battles in order to upgrade the settlement level, or build direct connections between holds.
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Feb 13, 2021 18:15
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Ra Ra Rasputin posted:Lower the building tier of flame cannons by one or two. I have played probably a dozen dwarf campaigns into att least a hundred turns and I have literally never bought a flame cannon and the one or two that I have gotten through confederations have been extremely lackluster against all the high tier units running around at the time, same with hammerers and gyrobombers. These units just gets disbanded in any confederated armies asap. I guess this is equal parts due to the dwarven low tier units being so drat cost effective, dwarven growth being so anemic and several of their high tier units being quite lovely for their price point. So that could probably use some work in the future.
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Feb 13, 2021 18:22
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Sasgrillo posted:Grimm Burloksson (Ranged lord, rebel engineer), and Thorek Ironbrow (THE Runesmith) rune magic / crafting being reworked would be sick.
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Feb 13, 2021 18:28
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Hungry posted:I do feel like Dwarfs need something more to do on the campaign layer. Personally I'd like to see more of a mechanical focus on reclaiming the holds, rebuilding the underway, etc. The largest dwarf holds are meant to be these giant underground cities, with mile after mile occupied by goblins and Skaven and worse. Perhaps some kind of system where you have to fight underground battles in order to upgrade the settlement level, or build direct connections between holds. also this kinda crazy that the underway movement mechanic requires popping up on the world. pretty sure you can stay on the underway for quite a while, longer than an army's movement pool anyway. i get why, but it'd be fun to have an alternative for them similar to worldroots, maybe with some random encounters while they're going from hold to hold.
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Feb 13, 2021 18:30
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You know, I don't care much for the dwarf grudge system, but, after playing several dwarf campaigns and then switching to others I am noticing how I reflexively cringe when I lose a territory before realizing it won't earn me a grudge. So I guess the grudge system is actually working in the sense that I play much more carefully at dwarves and only take provinces if I think I can keep them. So that is neat.
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Feb 13, 2021 19:13
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sauer kraut posted:Or maybe it's okay to just accept that bronze age melee infantry is not viable in a world of elven magic archers, exploding doomrockets and giant monsters. Ridiculously cool melee scrums is like the entire point of the setting. I think part of it is there has been a big narrowing of the gap between armored and unarmored units where armor doesn't matter as much as it should, whether through the proliferation of AP or other mechanics. Ranged being able to concentrate fire even with just 1 ap is another issue, though like at the end of the day darkshards, sisters of avelorn, and waywatchers should remain as threatening as they are. At least in campaign higher tier melee should get a big replenishment boost or something.
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Feb 13, 2021 19:27
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