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Rea posted:Hmm, yes, this will be more prevalent in peoples' minds than whatever Dems and the Biden admin do for covid relief. This will be the pressing issue over the vaccine rollout. Joe Q. Public isn't going to notice the difference in this one vote, but they have been noticing the trial and the complacency and incompetence of republicans. People have been getting more angry at them since the trial started. Then Trump's defense handed the house managers a golden ticket to open this up and bang that "Trump tried to overthrow the government and republicans support this!" drum harder. You might think that people would be aware of that already, but the general public really isn't. It was a move that cost them absolutely nothing to make republicans look even worse and drill it into the public consciousness. And then after they had won the ability to do that, they just gave up and walked away. None of this would prevent covid relief or anything else, republicans are going to be just as obstructing as they would be without getting witnesses and senate business was continuing anyway. This is one hundred percent a totally botch of an error where they had victory and walked away because of republicans were going to cry about it. gently caress democrats. They absolutely refuse to learn.
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Feb 13, 2021 19:34
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Are you loving kidding me. That settles it. Treason and insurrection are now legal if you are a republican and it's going to be the playbook from now on.
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Feb 13, 2021 19:34
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axeil posted:Are you seriously arguing this should've been done for "news cycle" purposes? How much of an impact did the first trump impeachment news cycles have on the 2020 election? No one is going to be campaigning on this in 2022 because there's not going to be video of people testifying that Trump incited an insurrection and that the GOP closed ranks to protect him after the fact.
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Feb 13, 2021 19:34
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Change the dem mascot to a donkey kicking its own nuts off.
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Feb 13, 2021 19:34
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Framboise posted:Are you loving kidding me. If only we called the witnesses it would surely convince 17 Republicans to change their mind on that stance they already had taken.
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Feb 13, 2021 19:35
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Angry_Ed posted:If only we called the witnesses it would surely convince 17 Republicans to change their mind on that stance they already had taken. Why did they do the impeachment at all then? Please tell me.
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Feb 13, 2021 19:35
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https://twitter.com/WakeUp2Politics/status/1360658579187974145
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Feb 13, 2021 19:36
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The stupidest part of your argument is that assuming you are being honest about your opinion here, you should be pissed the dems had a worthless show trial at all.
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Feb 13, 2021 19:36
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The House Democrats mostly do care about what the base thinks and wants done - the Senate Dems really really really don't care and just want to be friends and hang out with their Republicans friends at lunch time.
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Feb 13, 2021 19:36
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Grapplejack posted:Why did they do the impeachment at all then? Please tell me. So you're asking why do an impeachment when you know the Republicans were always going to acquit no matter what? Because to just not even try to do an impeachment would've been worse. Witnesses or no, the Senate was not going to convict and "political capital" is not a real thing. GlyphGryph posted:The stupidest part of your argument is that assuming you are being honest about your opinion here, you should be pissed the dems had a worthless show trial at all. The Dems didn't make the Republicans decide to acquit from the jump, sorry.
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Feb 13, 2021 19:36
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Angry_Ed posted:If only we called the witnesses it would surely convince 17 Republicans to change their mind on that stance they already had taken. It's not even about that. Give them more opportunities to show the world who they really are. This is just showing that Democrats won't even push back when this happens from here on. There's no opposition. It's just going to embolden them even more and do this poo poo even more from here on.
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Feb 13, 2021 19:37
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Framboise posted:It's not even about that. Give them more opportunities to show the world who they really are. I'm pretty sure the world is well aware of who they really are and the world, especially this country, does not care
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Feb 13, 2021 19:37
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Angry_Ed posted:So you're asking why do an impeachment when you know the Republicans were always going to acquit no matter what? Because to just not even try to do an impeachment would've been worse. Witnesses or no, the Senate was not going to convict and "political capital" is not a real thing. Okay so, with your logic, this is how it goes: No impeachment: Bad Impeachment that you kinda halfass and bail on: peak performance Impeachment that you call witnesses for: bad, waste of time
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Feb 13, 2021 19:37
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Oh come the gently caress on now 
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Feb 13, 2021 19:38
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Gee, sure would be nice to call witnesses to get these people on the record.
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Feb 13, 2021 19:39
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Angry_Ed posted:So you're asking why do an impeachment when you know the Republicans were always going to acquit no matter what? Because to just not even try to do an impeachment would've been worse. Witnesses or no, the Senate was not going to convict and "political capital" is not a real thing. You are being incoherent, I can't even follow your logic here
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Feb 13, 2021 19:39
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Rabble posted:How many times are the Dems gonna try and kick that football?? This is even worse, this time nobody was holding the football, it was just sitting there, and they took a runup, the wind was fair, the goalposts were close - and they stopped a couple of steps away and asked Lucy to come hold the ball for them. It's especially galling because the Dems have been extremely good until this point, so here the play was to either go "Welp, can't win a vote to call witnesses so not gonna bother, here's our closing arguments" or "Holy crap we can actually call witnesses, okay let's get on with it", and they managed to actually get the win needed and then gently caress it all up.
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Feb 13, 2021 19:39
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Oh look. The GOP are still being assholes. WHAT A SURPRISE!
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Feb 13, 2021 19:39
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Grapplejack posted:Okay so, with your logic, this is how it goes: Wow why bother asking me if you were just looking to put words in my mouth. Let me try to explain this again. Calling witnesses: good, but a waste of time as witnesses can just lie in an impeachment trial with no consequence. not calling witnesses: not worth getting worked up over when there is literally no chance Donald Trump would be convicted. What we have currently: the witnesses testimony of the one witness who actually wanted to testify being entered into the record.
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Feb 13, 2021 19:39
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Yeah sorry they bungled the first impeachment trial the same loving way when there was zero reason to rush through so I'm not giving them the benefit of the doubt on this for pandemic reasons. They've demonstrated that they can walk and chew gum at the same time but getting their much needed vacation while Americans continue to die by the truckload seems to be the #1 priority of both parties right now. loving peachy keen.
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Feb 13, 2021 19:40
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Grapplejack posted:Okay so, with your logic, this is how it goes: I for one am not arguing what happened is peak performance, I'm arguing it makes absolutely no difference because the calling of witnesses has no impact on the outcome of the impeachment nor future campaigning/messaging. The proper reaction here is "well it was dumb they half voted for witnesses but it's a minor dumb thing that will have no impact so who cares"
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Feb 13, 2021 19:40
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Angry_Ed posted:So you're asking why do an impeachment when you know the Republicans were always going to acquit no matter what? Because to just not even try to do an impeachment would've been worse. Witnesses or no, the Senate was not going to convict and "political capital" is not a real thing. So, let me ask this. Now that I'm cooling off a bit more and agreeing with some of your points in part... do you see where some of us are coming from, though? On taking the vote to move forward with witnesses and then immediately backtracking... it kinda plays at the whole narrative in total of Dems rolling over in a fight, over and over again. It's frustrating! Would have been better not to have had the vote at all.
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Feb 13, 2021 19:41
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gently caress it. Hopefully Biden at least manages to cancel my student loans and I can consider getting out of here before Republicans gain power again and succeed in their next coup now that they know they'll get away with it. That's the precedent that's being set with this trial and guarantees they will keep doing it until it works.
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Feb 13, 2021 19:41
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Social Studies 3rd Period posted:So, let me ask this. Now that I'm cooling off a bit more and agreeing with some of your points in part... do you see where some of us are coming from, though? On taking the vote to move forward with witnesses and then immediately backtracking... it kinda plays at the whole narrative in total of Dems rolling over in a fight, over and over again. It's frustrating! Would have been better not to have had the vote at all. They got the witness testimony of the only witness they wanted to call (at least according to Raskin) and got a couple extra Republicans to vote for witnesses in the first place, I don't see how that's a loss. Unless people keep making it a loss because we didn't get the mythical "Trump proves his own guilt on the stand" scenario which would never happen. Framboise posted:gently caress it. Hopefully Biden at least manages to cancel my student loans and I can consider getting out of here before Republicans gain power again and succeed in their next coup now that they know they'll get away with it. That's the precedent that's being set with this trial and guarantees they will keep doing it until it works. And if they called the witnesses this precedent would still be set I don't see where you think there was an outcome where Trump is convicted.
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Feb 13, 2021 19:41
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So is the vote tomorrow? Or today
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Feb 13, 2021 19:42
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CyberPingu posted:So is the vote tomorrow? Or today I believe currently it's expected approx 3-4 PM today.
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Feb 13, 2021 19:42
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axeil posted:I for one am not arguing what happened is peak performance, I'm arguing it makes absolutely no difference because the calling of witnesses has no impact on the outcome of the impeachment nor future campaigning/messaging. Except historical precedent says the longer you drag out a trial of a public figure, and the more you can get audio/video that can be shared with the public of the bad things, the more people end up convinced that figure did something wrong. Why did the Dems waste effort on a pointless show trial if they werent willing to put on a show?
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Feb 13, 2021 19:43
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You know what would help clear up all this confusion?? WITNESSES!
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Feb 13, 2021 19:43
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well maybe he should have said so earlier. Social Studies 3rd Period posted:So, let me ask this. Now that I'm cooling off a bit more and agreeing with some of your points in part... do you see where some of us are coming from, though? On taking the vote to move forward with witnesses and then immediately backtracking... it kinda plays at the whole narrative in total of Dems rolling over in a fight, over and over again. It's frustrating! Would have been better not to have had the vote at all. yeah. i dont blame anyone for being mad about the dems loving this up and THEY DID gently caress this up. i just mean i sorta get their reasonings especially when jon q public won't care about their gently caress up anyway.
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Feb 13, 2021 19:44
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Angry_Ed posted:And if they called the witnesses this precedent would still be set I don't see where you think there was an outcome where Trump is convicted. Its ironic you complain about people putting words in your mouth while attacking people for stuff they didnt say, unless I missed something? GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 19:47 on Feb 13, 2021 |
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Feb 13, 2021 19:44
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Angry_Ed posted:They got the witness testimony of the only witness they wanted to call (at least according to Raskin) and got a couple extra Republicans to vote for witnesses in the first place, I don't see how that's a loss. Unless people keep making it a loss because we didn't get the mythical "Trump proves his own guilt on the stand" scenario which would never happen. Disagree here on a point: Raskin mentioned in the original ask that potentially more witnesses might have been requested further as a result of her potential testimony, I believe? (Is there a good spot to check transcript information of all this as it happens?)
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Feb 13, 2021 19:45
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Dapper_Swindler posted:yeah. i dont blame anyone for being mad about the dems loving this up and THEY DID gently caress this up. i just mean i sorta get their reasonings especially when jon q public won't care about their gently caress up anyway. The GOP will 100% hammer on the fact that the Democrats backed down so obviously what Trump did wasn't that bad.
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Feb 13, 2021 19:45
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GlyphGryph posted:Its ironic you complain about people putting words in your mouth while attacking people for stuff they didnt say, unless I missed something? So do you want to tell me what other way we would be establishing insurrection as a thing that you cannot do even as a Republican without Trump being convicted? Cause I'm not seeing it.
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Feb 13, 2021 19:45
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https://twitter.com/Acosta/status/1360660883400249347
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Feb 13, 2021 19:45
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Grapplejack posted:Okay so, with your logic, this is how it goes:
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Feb 13, 2021 19:46
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Rabble posted:The GOP will 100% hammer on the fact that the Democrats backed down so obviously what Trump did wasn't that bad. Cool. Who's that actually going to persuade, and why does that matter for 2022 compared to arguments about pandemic relief or dumb culture war bullshit?
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Feb 13, 2021 19:46
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It's almost certainly correct that calling witnesses would have made little to no difference to the way the Treason Party will vote but that was never the objective so this just looks like the Dems snatched defeat from the jaws of victory and made sure they don't gain any additional ammunition in future campaigns as well as signalling they're as spineless as ever.
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Feb 13, 2021 19:46
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Why the gently caress did they bail on calling the witness? What deal could republicans have possibly thrown on the table to get them to take the offer? I can't find a single article explaining what they got in return for this, this is completely bonkers 
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Feb 13, 2021 19:46
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axeil posted:I for one am not arguing what happened is peak performance, I'm arguing it makes absolutely no difference because the calling of witnesses has no impact on the outcome of the impeachment nor future campaigning/messaging. i cannot loving conceive that you actually believe the bolded part. video of witnesses being evasive or lying during an actual impeachment trial in the actual loving US Senate couldn't possibly produce useful campaign video what could, then
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Feb 13, 2021 19:47
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Angry_Ed posted:So do you want to tell me what other way we would be establishing insurrection as a thing that you cannot do even as a Republican without Trump being convicted? Cause I'm not seeing it. Woah, before we change the subject why dont you tell me in what world the Dems holding a vote for witnesses, winning the vote, and then immediately capitulating to the demands of Republicans is a good thing. Explain why this would be superior to literally any other option.
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Feb 13, 2021 19:48
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