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Angry_Ed posted:So do you want to tell me what other way we would be establishing insurrection as a thing that you cannot do even as a Republican without Trump being convicted? Cause I'm not seeing it. Well, probably all the congress critters who've contributed to the insurrection over the years by their rhetoric now seeing that there's literally no way they will face any consequences barring a Senate Dem supermajority. They're only going to be even more motivated to making sure a Dem supermajority is impossible from now on, up to and including stoking violence against the opposing party. Very cool first world nation we have here.
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Feb 13, 2021 19:49
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Parrotine posted:Why the gently caress did they bail on calling the witness? What deal could republicans have possibly thrown on the table to get them to take the offer? Because Dems are spineless jellyfish who fold faster than Superman on laundry day at the slightest pushback.
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Feb 13, 2021 19:49
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https://twitter.com/JudiciaryGOP/status/1360651470237032450 gently caress off GOP, we're busy fighting ourselves right now, one second 
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Feb 13, 2021 19:49
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Oh boy I sure am glad that the Democratic party made sure this meme would be evergreen Specially at the cost of the stimulus taking another two weeks minimum. these are going to be exhausting years, god
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Feb 13, 2021 19:49
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Parrotine posted:Why the gently caress did they bail on calling the witness? What deal could republicans have possibly thrown on the table to get them to take the offer? 
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Feb 13, 2021 19:49
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MorningMoon posted:Oh boy I sure am glad that the Democratic party made sure this meme would be evergreen loving somebody just indict trump already, please, I can't take much more of this Georgia could do it tomorrow. Fulton County DA knows it too.
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Feb 13, 2021 19:50
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Parrotine posted:Why the gently caress did they bail on calling the witness? What deal could republicans have possibly thrown on the table to get them to take the offer?
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Feb 13, 2021 19:50
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Rea posted:Cool. Who's that actually going to persuade, and why does that matter for 2022 compared to arguments about pandemic relief or dumb culture war bullshit? Because the GOP is going to obstruct the Democrats at every turn anyway and they're always arguing in bad faith. The Senate could do COVID relief and the impeachment trial at the same time. Capitulating to the team that just tried to take over the government is a bad look.
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Feb 13, 2021 19:50
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Hey so can we storm the capitol when they vote that Trump is 100% good and nice? I mean it looks like there's no consequences for that poo poo right lets just walk in
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Feb 13, 2021 19:50
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Parrotine posted:Why the gently caress did they bail on calling the witness? What deal could republicans have possibly thrown on the table to get them to take the offer? Two hours of debate about the relevance of each witness. Republicans were threatening to call hundreds of frivolous witnesses just to gum up the works and be assholes. Democrats are trying to be serious about governing and government and decided turning impeachment into a carnival was counterproductive. Trump was going to walk regardless of witnesses, so discretion was the better part of valor.
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Feb 13, 2021 19:50
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Rabble posted:The GOP will 100% hammer on the fact that the Democrats backed down so obviously what Trump did wasn't that bad. the GOP will do that anyway. + this Deteriorata posted:Two hours of debate about the relevance of each witness. Republicans were threatening to call hundreds of frivolous witnesses just to gum up the works and be assholes.
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Feb 13, 2021 19:51
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Rabble posted:Because the GOP is going to obstruct the Democrats at every turn anyway and they're always arguing in bad faith. The Senate could do COVID relief and the impeachment trial at the same time. Capitulating to the team that just tried to take over the government is a bad look. Covid relief gets jammed up by the GOP refusing unanimous consent either way, but adding an additional venue for them to jam things up just adds more delays. Every hour spent on the impeachment trial is an hour-long delay to stimulus checks being sent out, unemployment benefits being reinforced, and those $300 per child monthly checks being sent to families.
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Feb 13, 2021 19:51
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Deteriorata posted:Two hours of debate about the relevance of each witness. Republicans were threatening to call hundreds of frivolous witnesses just to gum up the works and be assholes. Who gives a poo poo, it would have absolutely hosed over the GOP by pulling this stunt, they had no downsides for getting a witness. Awful loving party, jesus tap dancing christ.
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Feb 13, 2021 19:52
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Rea posted:Covid relief gets jammed up by the GOP refusing unanimous consent. Every hour spent on the impeachment trial is an hour-long delay to stimulus checks being sent out, unemployment benefits being reinforced, and those $300 per child monthly checks being sent to families. Not that I disagree with you but this doesn't mean so much, considering the Senate is going on (calling it vacation is a bit disingenuous, Senate's not in session but I imagine some senators will be doing some level of work in the interim)
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Feb 13, 2021 19:52
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Rea posted:Covid relief gets jammed up by the GOP refusing unanimous consent either way, but adding an additional venue for them to jam th ings up just adds more delays. Every hour spent on the impeachment trial is an hour-long delay to stimulus checks being sent out, unemployment benefits being reinforced, and those $300 per child monthly checks being sent to families. while I agree with the broader point somewhat, er, the senate is about to be in recess for the next week and change
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Feb 13, 2021 19:52
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Parrotine posted:Who gives a poo poo, it would have absolutely hosed over the GOP by pulling this stunt, they had no downsides for getting a witness. "What do you call it?"
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Feb 13, 2021 19:52
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Angry_Ed posted:Not that I disagree with you but this doesn't mean so much, considering the Senate is going on vacation after this. Social Studies 3rd Period posted:while I agree with the broader point somewhat, er, the senate is about to be in recess for the next week and change My point about adding delays still stands. The recess is already an extra delay on things, we don't need further ones.
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Feb 13, 2021 19:53
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It's complete bullshit that they get to on week long vacay during a loving national emergency coming up on 500,000 deaths btw.
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Feb 13, 2021 19:53
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GlyphGryph posted:Woah, before we change the subject why dont you tell me in what world the Dems holding a vote for witnesses, winning the vote, and then immediately capitulating to the demands of Republicans is a good thing. Explain why this would be superior to literally any other option. I thought that Raskin himself called for a vote on witnesses on his own accord after the defense team was stupidly objecting on due process grounds regarding having no witnesses called (which both sides already stipulated to in the initial procedural rules they agreed to) at which point Dems felt compelled to support Raskin?
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Feb 13, 2021 19:53
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Rea posted:Covid relief gets jammed up by the GOP refusing unanimous consent either way, but adding an additional venue for them to jam things up just adds more delays. Every hour spent on the impeachment trial is an hour-long delay to stimulus checks being sent out, unemployment benefits being reinforced, and those $300 per child monthly checks being sent to families. Please explain the mechanism by which witnesses would have slowed things down in a way that Democrats couldn't easily bypass
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Feb 13, 2021 19:54
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Deteriorata posted:Two hours of debate about the relevance of each witness. Republicans were threatening to call hundreds of frivolous witnesses just to gum up the works and be assholes. There are ways around that. They could have had both sides submit lists, draw up a resolution saying "we're calling this list of witnesses" comprising of ones from both lists, and then it's just one vote. That's the obvious fix.
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Feb 13, 2021 19:54
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So trump's defense /depends/ upon the proposition that he was unaware of facts that we have multiple witnesses attesting that they were present when he was brought up to speed (with clear timestamps to establish chronology). Depends upon. To the point that any senator that 1)knows about those attestments and 2)still votes "not guilty" is absolutely a co-conspirator in the execution and cover-up of high crimes... And if it's not presented during the trial, they will pretend to be unaware of it... Except it was presented in the trial, and witnesses were agreed upon because the defense disputed it, and now the defense will not be bringing in any witnesses or evidence disputing it... Dems should be able to get a win here. I'm not gunna pretend I can predict the outcome, and the "counterfactual" problem pops up as soon as one clear path is pursued. I wanna see the former executive answer questions about the execution of the law, as is the right of a constituency in a democracy. I also want trump de-platformed and forgotten. And I want swift action from the the legislative and the biden admin on some key issues. I don't think the Dems won, by getting witnesses. They all went in execting this to wrap up quickly. Trump's incompetent defence necessitated the vote on witnesses, it wasn't the strategy of the prosecution (though their clear and thorough presentation is what prompted the defense's folly). This probably makes some Dems fearful, as pursuing witnesses means abandoning a party-wide strategy (damnation memoria) to platform that rear end in a top hat one last time. He'll rant out his ukraine conspiracies, gop will demand hunter biden testify, and the Dems don't have a playbook ready for that. Never interrupt your opponent when they're making a mistake, but caution is warranted if you have a winning strategy and your opponents wild flailing presents a different course to follow. At the least, the Dems should take a day to strategize before agreeing to anything.
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Feb 13, 2021 19:54
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Uglycat posted:At the least, the Dems should take a day to strategize before agreeing to anything. This I agree with, rushing the vote now doesn't make a lot of sense to me seeing as how it looks like the witness vote caught everyone flatfooted. Not that I think it will do much (especially since it's Saturday) but I did leave messages with my senators asking how they feel about diminishing an easy political win here by not having many/any witnesses.
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Feb 13, 2021 19:56
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Deteriorata posted:Two hours of debate about the relevance of each witness. Republicans were threatening to call hundreds of frivolous witnesses just to gum up the works and be assholes. This was always going to happen, it's completely obvious, so why did they hold (and win! bipartisanly!) the vote for witnesses in the first place? It's so incredibly, unbelievably stupid and maybe the best example yet of why the GOP is so much better at weilding power
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Feb 13, 2021 19:56
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Uglycat posted:At the least, the Dems should take a day to strategize before agreeing to anything. This is the biggest point. They should have taken the week's recess and regrouped. Instead they caved and that's going to be the end of it. EDIT: At the most they could have kept this in the media for another week.
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Feb 13, 2021 19:56
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Uglycat posted:So trump's defense /depends/ upon the proposition that he was unaware of facts that we have multiple witnesses attesting that they were present when he was brought up to speed (with clear timestamps to establish chronology).
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Feb 13, 2021 19:57
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Hell if they were going to decide on no witnesses after all they could have at least not taken the Republicans deal and made it look like utter capitulation
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Feb 13, 2021 19:57
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lmao i went for a run when the news was breaking that the vote to allow witnesses passed and just got back to the Democrats self owning themselves. Everything is back to normal i see
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Feb 13, 2021 19:57
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Angry_Ed posted:Not what I said but thanks for playing. Nah nice try though, no one cares about the republican base, it's all the members of the democratic base who basically go "Well whats the point of voting for you" when they watch people gently caress up this bad or not even try. Instead of energizing your own base you hosed up so hard you might depress it.
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Feb 13, 2021 20:00
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Telsa Cola posted:Nah nice try though, no one cares about the republican base, it's all the members of the democratic base who basically go "Well whats the point of voting for you" when they watch people gently caress up this bad or not even try. Instead of energizing your own base you hosed up so hard you might depress it. This is where I'm at right now as well.
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Feb 13, 2021 20:01
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Telsa Cola posted:Nah nice try though, no one cares about the republican base, it's all the members of the democratic base who basically go "Well whats the point of voting for you" when they watch people gently caress up this bad or not even try. Instead of energizing your own base you hosed up so hard you might depress it. And if I believed for a second the one reason everyone voted for Democrats was to impeach Donald Trump a second time and not, say, COVID relief, I'd agree with you.
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Feb 13, 2021 20:01
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This is also a massive loss for the Dems because they're making their closing arguments right now but instead of talking about it we're discussing that passing on witnesses was a huge mistake. Passing on witnesses is the only thing people are going to talk about, especially if it comes out that witnesses would have provided more damming evidence.
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Feb 13, 2021 20:03
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Rabble posted:Passing on witnesses is the only thing people are going to talk about, especially if it comes out that witnesses would have provided more damming evidence. All the evidence in the world means absolutely nothing when Republicans don't think this trial should even be happening and are voting to acquit based on that.
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Feb 13, 2021 20:04
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Angry_Ed posted:And if I believed for a second the one reason everyone voted for Democrats was to impeach Donald Trump a second time and not, say, COVID relief, I'd agree with you. It doesn't have to be THE one reason, it can be a pile of assorted reasons that this adds onto.
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Feb 13, 2021 20:04
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SubG posted:No, Trump's defence depends on 45-ish Senators with (R) next to their name being unwilling to vote to convict in any circumstances. As in they literally don't care about evidence at all, actually literally, because they believe--or are purporting to believe--that the process is unconstitutional. That's already been voted on, so the final word is that it is. A senator justifying a not guilty vote with this reasoning absolutely damns themselves as covering up for high crimes. Granted, only expulsion or a ballot box two years (or four, or six) stand as a check on such a failure of right demeanor.
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Feb 13, 2021 20:04
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Angry_Ed posted:And if I believed for a second the one reason everyone voted for Democrats was to impeach Donald Trump a second time and not, say, COVID relief, I'd agree with you. Sidepoint to some degree, but I will kinda be curious what polling shows regarding the trial a week and potentially a couple months from now, if it's asked. I forget who it was from but someone mentioned about how this is likely to not be remembered by the Actual Public (and not just those of us extremely online) down the road, and ultimately, I *think* that's right. But will be interesting to see.
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Feb 13, 2021 20:05
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Angry_Ed posted:All the evidence in the world means absolutely nothing when Republicans don't think this trial should even be happening and are voting to acquit based on that. Ok but will you agree with the first part of my post that us talking about the witnesses and not the closing arguments makes the Dem's case weaker?
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Feb 13, 2021 20:05
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I am so loving mad right now. What the loving gently caress.
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Feb 13, 2021 20:05
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Uglycat posted:That's already been voted on, so the final word is that it is. A senator justifying a not guilty vote with this reasoning absolutely damns themselves as covering up for high crimes. Which is exactly why Republicans are getting away with this (and by doing things like meeting with the defense) because they know they won't get expelled and the odds of them being voted out aren't great either depending on location. Rabble posted:Ok but will you agree with the first part of my post that us talking about the witnesses and not the closing arguments makes the Dem's case weaker? Nah.
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Feb 13, 2021 20:06
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Angry_Ed posted:And if I believed for a second the one reason everyone voted for Democrats was to impeach Donald Trump a second time and not, say, COVID relief, I'd agree with you. They hosed up COVID relief in the same exact way, deciding to reduce the check amounts and delay the bill. And then delaying it for the trial
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Feb 13, 2021 20:06
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