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HookedOnChthonics posted:he says 'gimme your key so i can end this hosed cosmic system' So, in fact, his answer to "hey I want to marry my girlfriend but the system won't let me" is "Imma kill you no worries." Also I'm pretty sure Monkey (Maya's apprentice) isn't a follower of Jaggs. skaianDestiny fucked around with this message at 02:28 on Feb 14, 2021 |
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Feb 14, 2021 02:26
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why are you so fixated on sexual politics? this is........ not that comic, my dude, the 7 are not transphobes or allegories for patriarchal white male power; the critique is more expansive than that vvv no. very pointedly both have ending, not reforming the system as their stated goal. Kill 6 Billion Demons, not Teach 6 Billion Demons To Code HookedOnChthonics fucked around with this message at 02:35 on Feb 14, 2021 |
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Feb 14, 2021 02:31
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Allison's goal is "the system is suffering, so we must change it for the better" Jagg's goal is "the system is suffering, so we must kill everyone"
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Feb 14, 2021 02:31
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HookedOnChthonics posted:why are you so fixated on sexual politics? this is........ not that comic, my dude, the 7 are not homophobes or allegories for patriarchal white male power Cause it's an easy shorthand to how ridiculous your whitewashing of Jaggs is? Literally replace it with like racism or power imbalance or classism or capitalism or whatever and the metaphor still stands. People who want the dissolution of capitalism want to replace it with a system that would hopefully work better and not cause as much suffering, not "let's kill everyone because there's no other way out". The latter is what Jaggs is doing.
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Feb 14, 2021 02:33
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I dont know if "Ending this corpse reality" means like, stopping physical existence so everyone can live in divinity or literally just "I'm gonna eradicate all life and see what happens lmao" and the chance Jagg had to explain he just sorta went "*sigh* not really worth my time" and pulled his nuke sword out again.
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Feb 14, 2021 02:35
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Jagg's position is "The world is bad, so let's destroy it." Allison's is "The world is bad, so let's improve it." Jaggs is litterally doing the "easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism" thing, but with "rule by divine tyrants"
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Feb 14, 2021 02:38
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or, allison still believes in electoralism and decorum; jaggs is a veteran of the endless wars and knows that poo poo is pointless, power will always do what it wants like we just saw white chain win a miraculous impossible victory that's supposed to result in the granting of any desire, and soldave was already backpedaling in his first statement on her proposed reform!!!! and beyond that, jagganoth's objection is definitely not just to the rule of the seven or any other merely temporal concern—he sees the entire wheel; the entire extant order of creation with different flames and realms and bs, as corrupted and in need of overturning, and the episodes with michael and metatron make me think he's more right than wrong whether there is any world beyond or merely oblivion is the thing that remains to be seen
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Feb 14, 2021 02:51
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Why did Zoss leave Metatron alive?
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Feb 14, 2021 02:57
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jaggs is an accelerationist
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Feb 14, 2021 03:17
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HookedOnChthonics posted:or, allison still believes in electoralism and decorum; jaggs is a veteran of the endless wars and knows that poo poo is pointless, power will always do what it wants Have you seen Lancer's setting? Abaddon ain't an accelerationist. Jagganoth is a traumatized individual, like the rest of the Seven, and can only process the world through his trauma. This is pretty crucial to their deal as well; they are incapable of imagining a better world than the one they have, because they know violence and they know how it limits and warps possibility. This is a story about the inescapability of violence and the willingness of the powerful to gently caress everyone else over to get a little bit of security in a world that in the end has none, and Allison represents above anything else a willingness to take a chance on being hurt rather than destroy other people. Which has leftist implications! It has, in fact, implications towards reform and struggle rather than accelerationism and despair. E: This was spelled out pretty directly in undercomic text recently, that there are three people in a desert. One despairs and dies of thirst, one denies the problem and dies of thirst, and one keeps walking forward idiotically hoping to find water eventually, and dies of thirst. YISUN loves the third one best. (May have slightly misrepresented the first two, they're less memorable.) Joe Slowboat fucked around with this message at 04:17 on Feb 14, 2021 |
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Feb 14, 2021 04:14
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FuturePastNow posted:Why did Zoss leave Metatron alive?
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Feb 14, 2021 04:25
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HookedOnChthonics posted:why are you so fixated on sexual politics? this is........ not that comic, my dude, the 7 are not transphobes or allegories for patriarchal white male power; the critique is more expansive than that What on absolute earth is this post lol. This is absolutely that comic. Solomon David is LITERALLY toxic masculinity and the patriarchy. The Angels are literally transphobes. How did you get this far in this comic with no eyes
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Feb 14, 2021 04:35
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HookedOnChthonics posted:he says 'gimme your key so i can end this hosed cosmic system' destroying the cosmic system will not destroy the cosmic system. jagganoth is incapable of seeing this because he's become an avatar of the Cut
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Feb 14, 2021 04:56
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this comic is loving amazing
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Feb 14, 2021 05:10
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Captain Oblivious posted:What on absolute earth is this post lol. Also the plot says all-but-directly to the reader "being the conquering hero of poo poo Mountain is stupid and toxic, you should empower others to rise with you as equals".
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Feb 14, 2021 05:11
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no see jagganoth uses the infinite flame of creation as a man might use an especially sharp rock like this, ergo
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Feb 14, 2021 05:16
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HookedOnChthonics posted:or, allison still believes in electoralism and decorum; jaggs is a veteran of the endless wars and knows that poo poo is pointless, power will always do what it wants his aim is to eradicate every living thing in creation, not abolish the filibuster, you weirdo
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Feb 14, 2021 05:29
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gently caress you Operant, got me unironically listening to Opeth
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Feb 14, 2021 05:36
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Bilirubin posted:gently caress you Operant, got me unironically listening to Opeth Could be worse, one of the earlier pages got me into Nile and then I fell down a metal rabbit hole and was unironically listening to a band called "Cattle Decapitation" this morning.
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Feb 14, 2021 05:42
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I now love John Cena thanks to Oscar.
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Feb 14, 2021 06:25
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paranoid randroid posted:his aim is to eradicate every living thing in creation, not abolish the filibuster, you weirdo other people say thats his aim, and when asked about it he said its not. i think people might lie or be incorrect about the nature of the universe and other people in this comic, occasionally
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Feb 14, 2021 06:27
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One of those things that I like is that the theme is genuinely more deeply engaged thanks to the superpowered aspect. He's making a pretty unambiguous engagement with the general anti-egalitarian argument that if some people are Just Better, then they should rule the rest of us. Nietzsche probably makes the most fun version of this argument, and IRL the simplest counter argument to Nietzsche's whole thing is "but nobody is a lion, all humans are lambs." The actual variance in human capability is pretty narrow, big projects require lots of people. But in K6BD universe, we are confronted with individual soldiers who can kill hundreds/thousands/millions. Sure the president can launch nukes but that's standing on the shoulders of the scientists, miners, engineers, and soldiers who invented the plan, dug up the raw materials, built the bombs, and maintained & launched the actual devices. In K6BD somebody like Solomon can punch an entire city into dust just by himself. And K6BD still makes the argument, quite confidently, that it's bullshit to accept a system where superpowered assholes have an unequal vote over our lives. It's not wrong because of the technical issue, it's wrong at a much deeper principled one. (yes yes there's nonfiction that makes these arguments probably more concisely, but nonfiction and fiction fill different needs in our lives) Bilirubin posted:gently caress you Operant, got me unironically listening to Opeth Opeth owns, deal with it (by listening to Opeth)
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Feb 14, 2021 06:31
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jsoh posted:other people say thats his aim, and when asked about it he said its not. i think people might lie or be incorrect about the nature of the universe and other people in this comic, occasionally Abaddon himself said that Jagganoth desires the destruction of reality. Repeatedly. You could say he's lying, but he's never done so with any other WoG.
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Feb 14, 2021 06:44
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paranoid randroid posted:his aim is to eradicate every living thing in creation, not abolish the filibuster, you weirdo Jag abolishes the filibuster would be a fun side story, though.
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Feb 14, 2021 06:59
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jsoh posted:other people say thats his aim, and when asked about it he said its not. i think people might lie or be incorrect about the nature of the universe and other people in this comic, occasionally
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Feb 14, 2021 06:59
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Jagganoth nuked a city and then blew up another part of it, killing hundreds if not thousands or more in a matter of seconds. His response when called on it was "they're better off dead anyway". These are not the words nor actions of a good guy, even if his goal is only killing Metatron and not destroying everything the way others have said. These are, in fact, bad things to say and do.
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Feb 14, 2021 07:00
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"hey maybe incubus just wants to help people reach their true potential?" i say, like a total mark
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Feb 14, 2021 07:03
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Tulip posted:One of those things that I like is that the theme is genuinely more deeply engaged thanks to the superpowered aspect. He's making a pretty unambiguous engagement with the general anti-egalitarian argument that if some people are Just Better, then they should rule the rest of us. Nietzsche probably makes the most fun version of this argument, and IRL the simplest counter argument to Nietzsche's whole thing is "but nobody is a lion, all humans are lambs." The actual variance in human capability is pretty narrow, big projects require lots of people. Personally I think it's a different engagement with Nietzsche: The universe is not kind. It does not ensure any kind of justice or human order, and the man with a sword will be able to make the people without swords either do what he says, or die. That is deeply unjust, but it will never not be true that an armed person can coerce unarmed people. Violence is inescapable; when someone decides that a particularly sharp rock is the answer to their problems, other people need to rock up or run, metaphorically speaking. The fundamental order of the universe is amoral and God does nothing about it. YISUN is a big fan of struggle and suffering, in a sense. What is the response to this? Is it denial, and insistence that you can overcome it with discipline and brutality yourself? That's Solomon. Is it acceptance, and simply living like a wolf? That's Incubus. The others all have their relationships to this brutality. Jagganoth is disgusted by it but finds no answer, so he sets out to do such violence that it's 'solved.' Allison is aiming for some other answer to this world, and I imagine it's got some influence from Nietzsche's Genealogy of Morals: If the truth of the universe is utterly unacceptable to your soul, defy it. Know it will probably break you and do it anyways, because conforming to the shape of the universe will definitely break you (like Incubus, again). Take arms against the gods, tell the cosmos to gently caress off with its categories and its rules, you're going to try your damndest to do what you consider to be right. And, well, that's what Nietzsche thought only some people could do - some very rare people had the force of will to assert their values into the empty cosmos, rather than accepting someone else's rules and someone else's values as a crutch. The response, in K6BD, seems to be not 'no, nobody should do that' but 'yes, everybody can and should do that.' We assert that a better world is possible and, knowing that the universe does not in its basic realities agree, we assert that we're still going forward with it. Everyone gets to transvaluate values, ideally together, to say that the injustice of the universe is not something we'll stand for. And there are, imo, better ways of fighting against it than killing off humanity. E: Inkyboy does, imo, want to help people but only because he can't loving believe these dopes without ambition! How can you not see that the only point in life is to attain everything, kill anyone who threatens you, and become God? Everyone should understand, like he does, that murder is the final word, violence is everything, and nobody but him really understands! Incubus wants to help people solely so he can say 'I told you so' (and then suck out their soul flame or something). Joe Slowboat fucked around with this message at 07:11 on Feb 14, 2021 |
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Feb 14, 2021 07:08
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i feel like if we're supposed to give any one person any credence in the setting its Meti, and her outlook seems to be something to the effect of: use your will to do literally anything other than seek violence. there may come a time where it is necessary to be violent, and even then you should be as efficient and workmanlike as possible to the point where you regard killing a thousand men as you would taking a poo poo on the beach. consider instead what you had for dinner.
paranoid randroid fucked around with this message at 07:23 on Feb 14, 2021 |
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Feb 14, 2021 07:21
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paranoid randroid posted:i feel like if we're supposed to give any one person any credence in the setting its Meti, and her outlook seems to be something to the effect of: use your will to do literally anything other than seek violence. there may come a time where it is necessary to be violent, and even then you should be as efficient and workmanlike as possible to the point where you regard killing a thousand men as you would taking a poo poo on the beach. consider instead what you had for dinner. meti taught two of the most unhappy people in the multiverse. rather than fully giving her credence, it'd examine the contradiction: despite her understanding that violence flows from violence and being a master of murder able to topple gods, the best she could do was shape two more broken people this is mirrored in soloman who was taught restraint sufficient to watch his world die, which in turn crushed him into clockwork enough to cause the celestial empire this is kinda a point in the previous arc, stillness isn't the answer either
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Feb 14, 2021 09:37
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Bilirubin posted:gently caress you Operant, got me unironically listening to Opeth Dammerung posted:Could be worse, one of the earlier pages got me into Nile and then I fell down a metal rabbit hole and was unironically listening to a band called "Cattle Decapitation" this morning. These are good bands I'm not sure what the problem is here? Might as well say "dammit Operant for getting me to read a great comic".  Tulip posted:Opeth owns, deal with it (by listening to Opeth) 
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Feb 14, 2021 11:55
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Simply listen to Insomnium instead of Opeth (when you are done listening to Opeth)
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Feb 14, 2021 15:35
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paranoid randroid posted:i feel like if we're supposed to give any one person any credence in the setting its Meti, and her outlook seems to be something to the effect of: use your will to do literally anything other than seek violence. there may come a time where it is necessary to be violent, and even then you should be as efficient and workmanlike as possible to the point where you regard killing a thousand men as you would taking a poo poo on the beach. consider instead what you had for dinner. Meti recognized the primacy and inescapability of violence, and also that embracing this would poison you with the sword to the point that you become Jagganoth or Incubus or Solomon David. (Or Maya.) She had no solution, though, other than to throw her hands in the air and say 'go do ANYTHING ELSE besides the sword!' while still training the two greatest swordspeople of the age, Incubus and Maya. Meti knew that Cutting was the Principle Art and therefore she learned and taught Cutting, but at the same time recognized that to be a master of the blade was not a good way to be for yourself or the world. She was either a very bad teacher, or she was hoping one of them would find a way out of the pit she spent her whole life digging for herself.
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Feb 14, 2021 16:43
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Rogue AI Goddess posted:They have power, but not strength beyond strength. You need the Sword of Omens for that
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Feb 14, 2021 17:31
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Meti had a explicitly dualistic and individualist attitude toward violence, arguing that either one engages in it without limit, or surrenders to its supremacy without resistance. For Meti, there are no other options in between Hence her students: one who rules arbitrarily and wantonly, and one who wanders around in despair and self-disgust. So, Maya likewise she judges herself by the standard that either she overcomes Incubus or she is nothing - even once the dust settles from the Universal War and the planes crawl not with annihilators of worlds, but common gangs, petty warlords, and the people they prey on.
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Feb 14, 2021 17:46
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Thyrork posted:NEVER TALK TO ME, MYSELF OR I AGAIN! My Mother, My Other, and Me
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Feb 14, 2021 17:53
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Dammerung posted:Could be worse, one of the earlier pages got me into Nile and then I fell down a metal rabbit hole and was unironically listening to a band called "Cattle Decapitation" this morning. Woke up this morning to find youtube open to Carcass's Heartworks. Not a terrible thing.
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Feb 14, 2021 18:43
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Captain Oblivious posted:What on absolute earth is this post lol. i said that the critique of power is more expansive—i'm drawing a distinction with a comic like feast for a king, which also tells a big anime action story about power, but absolutely one centered squarely on sexual politics and identity, because that is the topic the author wants to explore. in this comic, devils and humans and servants can just date each other in the course of oppressing or being oppressed by and for totally different forces and reasons. k6bd has queer characters but it is not queer literature; the object of allison's quest is entirely external to her identity, and the big triumphant moment will not be "finally, society sees me how i want to be seen, and i can date how i want!" it was just a really weird thing for that poster to zoom in on specifically and repeatedly. (also unless we're told explicitly otherwise rayuba seems like the kind of place where gay marriage or coming out as trans is nbd, just fill out form 109(3)a in triplicate, but you will be wearing purple at the wedding. he seems to want his citizens to be happy and fulfilled as they dedicate 100% of their energy to his empire according to his strict legalism. probably all his descendants also need an iceland-style app to make sure their date is sufficiently distant) white chain is also interesting—her deal is not being torn between an assigned-male role and a female identity, but an assigned-immortal role and is 'truly' a mortal inside. the other angels only parse gender as the cruft of mortal reproduction; the admonition they give of what will happen to her isnt that she'll be weak or 'gay,' it's that she'll rot and die like other mortals. they use male pronouns and appellations, sure, but that seems like a default (ofc male = normal is its whole other issue to talk about). it still works as a metaphor but she's got more going on than just gender dysphoria imo. look at Lucy in Never Satisfied or Cash Goodman, Crimson, or Scissor from FFaK to see the difference between an author writing about queer issues vs including queer characters. not being that comic isn't a bad thing. paranoid randroid posted:his aim is to eradicate every living thing in creation, not abolish the filibuster, you weirdo miss the bits where creation is speeches made by a bunch of dead gods that their words have incredible power over? like literally, that's what a key of kings is, it gives you filibuster power on the universe lmao also while i definitely stan big jagg all the 7 are clearly allegories for different forms of abusive power. but unlike the others we've seen so far, jagg is purposeful rather than capricious, mission-focused rather than self-absorbed, dissatisfied with the shittiness of the world rather than perpetuating it his fatal flaw, total callous disregard for the little people, is totally indicting. he has a bad plan. but i'd bet that his targets and motivation align pretty closely with the course of action allison will end up taking, the one that leads here. HookedOnChthonics fucked around with this message at 22:13 on Feb 14, 2021 |
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Feb 14, 2021 21:41
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HookedOnChthonics posted:also while i definitely stan big jagg all the 7 are clearly allegories for different forms of abusive power. but unlike the others we've seen so far, jagg is purposeful rather than capricious, mission-focused rather than self-absorbed, dissatisfied with the shittiness of the world rather than perpetuating it see I totally disagree here, I think jagganoth and solomon are almost exactly the same in this regard, and last chapters slow teardown of solomon almost certainly mostly applies to jagg as well. solomon is ALSO dissatisfied with the shittiness of the world, its why he creates this tiny little perfect paradise. he's also, in his mind, mission focused. his whole thing was that he had convinced himself he was creating a whole new system, outside of the rotten one, where he would be succeeded by another perfect warrior-king. jaggs saying "well nothing will actually work so im just going to obliterate everything" is the same thing from a different angle. its convincing yourself that you're doing this for everyone else when really you just can't admit to yourself that you hosed up from the start.
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Feb 14, 2021 21:59
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Lord Intra did not gather a vast army to defeat the wicked Yem Yeddo, nor did he build an empire in the valley once it was liberated. He did, however, make bread out of stone, and taught the people how to do that.
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Feb 14, 2021 23:40
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