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bushisms.txt posted:I'm explicitly giving examples, in return I get told everyone is an idiot for liking an idiots work. Exactly the same yes. You're citing perfectly valid criticisms of the movie and saying it's ignorance. There's a lot to criticize about Man of Steel and its sequels. You don't get to just tar it all with the brush of "misunderstanding".
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Feb 15, 2021 21:30
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I think what bushims is referring to when he says people don't "get" the movies is more about some of the bizarre criticism they get. The "Superman doesn't save anyone in MoS" is a good example. This opinion ranges from simply that superman did not save enough people all the way to Superman is a genocidal maniac. The thing is this isn't really represented in the movie at all. Our first introduction to Superman is him literally saving people on the oil rig. So when I see people say stuff like "Superman didn't save anyone" I don't think I would say they didn't get the movie but I would definitely accuse of them of not really paying attention.
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Feb 15, 2021 21:31
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Arist posted:. What's this choice you're referring to? I agree with you on PaKent, but detractors view that as Snyder's point of view instead of watching the movie and seeing Clark do exactly what his father said not to do, living as a nomad while still helping people. This is when I say they don't get it. Like wise when people hammer Eisenberg as being a bad choice for Lex without taking anything in to context outside of what they wanted re imagined from JLA. Phylodox posted:You're citing perfectly valid criticisms of the movie and saying it's ignorance. There's a lot to criticize about Man of Steel and its sequels. You don't get to just tar it all with the brush of "misunderstanding". Please cite a few of things wrong with MoS since there's so much. Sorry but I refuse to let some youtuber led dialogue be the starting point for film discussion. bushisms.txt fucked around with this message at 21:34 on Feb 15, 2021 |
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Feb 15, 2021 21:31
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I wish I felt as compelled to ardently defend anything as the Snyderdome posters who jump into this thread anytime someone mentions the man's name do. That's not actually a serious comment going into a thread full of people that disagree with me to defend a highly subjective position sounds like a nightmare.
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Feb 15, 2021 21:38
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bushisms.txt posted:Please cite a few of things wrong with MoS since there's so much. Suggesting that MoS has flaws is “youtuber-led dialogue”?
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Feb 15, 2021 21:38
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bushisms.txt posted:Please cite a few of things wrong with MoS since there's so much. I mean...no? You're being weirdly combative and lovely. If you really want to have a discussion about Snyder's movies, maybe try not starting the dialogue by being snide and dismissive.
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Feb 15, 2021 21:40
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bushisms.txt posted:Sorry but I refuse to let some youtuber led dialogue be the starting point for film discussion. There it is.
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Feb 15, 2021 21:40
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Zack Snider.
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Feb 15, 2021 21:41
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Maybe if we say all of Snyder’s movies are great and everything we like is poo poo cause we’re all dumb babies, they’ll go away.
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Feb 15, 2021 21:41
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Ghosthotel posted:I think what bushims is referring to when he says people don't "get" the movies is more about some of the bizarre criticism they get. You see though I think this is a bit of a strawman you've constructed. Someone saying "Superman doesn't save people in MOS" is easy to refute, because he clearly does multiple times - by the climax he essentially saves the entire world. But I don't think that was the problem people actually had with the film. MOS has an incredibly large body count, potentially in the hundreds of thousands. This was unusual for a Superman film which normally have Superman prevent most people from dying by utilising superhuman feats like using his body to replace a broken rail. In MOS Superman also at one point deliberately crashes an alien ship which crashes into multiple skyscrapers potentially killing thousands. Did he have to crash this ship to save the world? Yes, in the context of the story, but the film makers made the choice to make Superman have to kill thousands to save billions, and many people who watched it did not like that vision of Superman. That's normally the main argument, not "Superman doesn't save anyone". I don't necessarily mind that choice, I mind the aftermath, where the film ends like previous Superman stories with soaring music and Superman flying around the earth, which undermined what the film depicted, which was a horrifying tragedy. Karloff fucked around with this message at 21:53 on Feb 15, 2021 |
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Feb 15, 2021 21:46
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I find the hostility that surrounds some movies that aren't meaningfully worse than similar ones (I often think better, but certainly no worse) endlessly fascinating. It's one thing to simply dislike a movie; tastes vary, after all. But when an anti-fandom springs up, that's when I know that something interesting is going on and I want to learn more.
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Feb 15, 2021 21:47
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Karloff posted:You see though I think this is a bit of a strawman you've constructed. Someone saying "Superman doesn't save people in MOS" is easy to refute, because he clearly does multiple times - by the climax he essentially saves the entire world. That does have some to do with it. The super hero power fantasy of the perfect hero in control vs looking at what beings of actual power fighting would result in when they aren’t perfect. It’s like it took away that comic book innocence when fanboys saw what their beloved superhero’s would result in. This is especially funny because for like 20 years fans were clamoring for a proper dramatic superhero film done seriously and with respect and when they got it they were horrified.
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Feb 15, 2021 21:51
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Karloff posted:You see though I think this is a bit of a strawman you've constructed. Someone saying "Superman doesn't save people in MOS" is easy to refute, because he clearly does multiple times - by the climax he essentially saves the entire world. This isn't pointed at anyone in the thread but just stuff I've come across online and I've definitely run into quite a number of people who did actually have that perceived problem with the film. I've seen people unironically refer to Superman as a sociopath in the movie. This is obviously all anecdotal on my part but I don't think it's super hard to find that opinion online.
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Feb 15, 2021 21:52
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Aphrodite posted:There it is. There's what? Anytime there's a conversation on his films, it's always supposed to be accepted there's so many flaws. I don't accept that, I'd like to know what you actually mean outside of perceived character wrongness stemming from outside media. Karloff posted:You see though I think this is a bit of a strawman you've constructed. Someone saying "Superman doesn't save people in MOS" is easy to refute, because he clearly does multiple times - by the climax he essentially saves the entire world. It was a thing people complained about. You even try to get around by noting the aftermath, and I don't think he flies around triumphantly at the end... Phylodox posted:I mean...no? You're being weirdly combative and lovely. If you really want to have a discussion about Snyder's movies, maybe try not starting the dialogue by being snide and dismissive. I'm returning the energy in given when I'm called an idiot for liking a film.
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Feb 15, 2021 22:14
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Man of Steel was lovely because Steel wasn't even in the movie and I think false advertising is bad.
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Feb 15, 2021 22:17
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https://youtu.be/9sL102pyaLg
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Feb 15, 2021 22:19
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no idea what people are arguing about here... steppenwolf is sharp though... did anyone else think that scott snyder and zack snyder were the same people? i was like hey why doesnt he just do some of the batman stuff he's already written? oops. they related?
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Feb 15, 2021 22:22
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Jamesman posted:Man of Steel was lovely because Steel wasn't even in the movie and I think false advertising is bad. I do think it could have been called Man of Tomorrow
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Feb 15, 2021 22:22
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I don’t think I’ve seen anyone call you an idiot for liking a movie bushisms
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Feb 15, 2021 22:22
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bushisms.txt posted:There's what? Anytime there's a conversation on his films, it's always supposed to be accepted there's so many flaws. I don't accept that, I'd like to know what you actually mean outside of perceived character wrongness stemming from outside media. People are just saying why they don't like the films. No one is making you agree with them unless you feel that any differing opinion is an attack. As to whether people can discuss Snyder's DC films as part of a wider set of works, as opposed to an individual thing I quote myself below. Karloff posted:Furthermore, in every new adaption or version of something there is a tension between what elements you keep from previous versions, what you jettison and what you introduce. I think it's fair to look at that process and argue whether you think anything was lost, and whether anything was gained. All adaptions do this, and it's as valid a point of criticism as any other. For example Nolan got rid of the fantastical and gothic expressionism of Batman, but introduced other concepts in their stead. It's fair and dare I say fun to argue whether his version is better or worse than other versions. bushisms.txt posted:It was a thing people complained about. You even try to get around by noting the aftermath, and I don't think he flies around triumphantly at the end... What can I say, I like the film but MOS utterly flubs the ending in my opinion. It fails to explore the ramifications of the mass death. It would have been better had it done so. There are no scenes where Superman has to deal with the trauma of murdering thousands to kill billions (the only difficulty and regret in that choice is destroying Krypton, not wiping out those skyscrapers), he's kissing his lady friend moments later, it tries to be both terrifying alien invasion film and hopeful super-hero film and fails in my opinion to reconcile the two.
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Feb 15, 2021 22:28
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bushisms.txt posted:Anytime there's a conversation on his films, it's always supposed to be accepted there's so many flaws. I don't accept that, I'd like to know what you actually mean outside of perceived character wrongness stemming from outside media. It's really hard to want to have any kind of conversation with you when you say things like this, implying that you're just flat out predisposed to not believing these movies even have flaws, much less being willing to discuss them. You come off as not actually wanting to listen to dissenting opinions other than to disprove them, which doesn't really make people want to engage with you in good faith.
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Feb 15, 2021 22:31
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The biggest flaw in Man of Steel is that for some reason Russell Crowe is flying on a dragon monster like we in Avatar or some poo poo within the first 5 minutes. I mean that isn’t actually the biggest flaw but it was the first thing that made me think “lol what the gently caress is this” and then the rest of the movie did not improve
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Feb 15, 2021 22:35
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I don't recall him wiping out any skyscrapers full of people tbh. He gets tossed through a couple. Most of the fight against Zod is in an area under construction. The ship he brings down hits a couple skyscrapers on the very edge of the already destroyed section of metropolis.
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Feb 15, 2021 22:43
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Phylodox posted:It's really hard to want to have any kind of conversation with you when you say things like this, implying that you're just flat out predisposed to not believing these movies even have flaws, much less being willing to discuss them. You come off as not actually wanting to listen to dissenting opinions other than to disprove them, which doesn't really make people want to engage with you in good faith. I recently watched the film and for me it was a fine superhero film, and no real flaws, which could be a number of things. I genuinely want to know. But this Escobarbarian posted:The biggest flaw in Man of Steel is that for some reason Russell Crowe is flying on a dragon monster like we in Avatar or some poo poo within the first 5 minutes. I mean that isn’t actually the biggest flaw but it was the first thing that made me think “lol what the gently caress is this” and then the rest of the movie did not improve Karloff posted:People are just saying why they don't like the films. No one is making you agree with them unless you feel that any differing opinion is an attack. As to whether people can discuss Snyder's DC films as part of a wider set of works, as opposed to an individual thing I quote myself below. The entirety of bvs is literally the ramifications, which would've been mos2 if Snyder had his way. And the kiss is setup in the film, go back and watch how many times Lois and Clark get together in a clearing, there's even a scene where they purposefully don't show the same composition. MoS ends with Superman destroying a drone, a direct ramification of the fight, which also got people mad. bushisms.txt fucked around with this message at 22:50 on Feb 15, 2021 |
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Feb 15, 2021 22:45
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Escobarbarian posted:The biggest flaw in Man of Steel is that for some reason Russell Crowe is flying on a dragon monster like we in Avatar or some poo poo within the first 5 minutes. I mean that isn’t actually the biggest flaw but it was the first thing that made me think “lol what the gently caress is this” and then the rest of the movie did not improve I was not aware the mind behind CinemaSins posted on SA
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Feb 15, 2021 22:48
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Escobarbarian posted:The biggest flaw in Man of Steel is that for some reason Russell Crowe is flying on a dragon monster like we in Avatar or some poo poo within the first 5 minutes. I mean that isn’t actually the biggest flaw but it was the first thing that made me think “lol what the gently caress is this” and then the rest of the movie did not improve That poo poo was dope
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Feb 15, 2021 22:50
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I thought CinemaSins was all silly plotholes and poo poo? I’ve never watched one of them except when other people have put them on while I was in the room
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Feb 15, 2021 22:52
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Also, he doesn't destroy Krypton, but rather destroys a Kryptonian eugenics machine.
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Feb 15, 2021 22:52
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John Wick of Dogs posted:I don't recall him wiping out any skyscrapers full of people tbh. He gets tossed through a couple. Most of the fight against Zod is in an area under construction. The ship he brings down hits a couple skyscrapers on the very edge of the already destroyed section of metropolis. The sequel literally starts by showing that it was 9/11 times a thousand and there were buildings falling around all over the fuckin place.
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Feb 15, 2021 22:54
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Bongo Bill posted:Also, he doesn't destroy Krypton, but rather destroys a Kryptonian eugenics machine. Krypton is literally still alive inside him, which is kind of the point of that whole thing yeah. It took subtext and made it into text.
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Feb 15, 2021 22:55
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The biggest flaw of MOS is that all the destruction wasn't planned to be explored as the cost of what Superman had to do and the difficulty inherent to a superpowered battle, it was just done as a huge extravagant fight scene with lots of destruction to show how powerful Superman and Zod were. The fact that Snyder constantly changed his tune over this until it became "the point" in BvS (he even tried to deflect on other movies like Star Wars) before putting the climax of THAT film in a Conveniently Abandoned District shows he didn't put much thought into it at all beyond spectacle, and then backtracked when it became an issue with people.
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Feb 15, 2021 22:55
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Bongo Bill posted:I find the hostility that surrounds some movies that aren't meaningfully worse than similar ones (I often think better, but certainly no worse) endlessly fascinating. It's one thing to simply dislike a movie; tastes vary, after all. But when an anti-fandom springs up, that's when I know that something interesting is going on and I want to learn more. This is where I'm at as well. It's the least surprising thing in the world when a big budget franchise gets an ardent fandom, but the anti-fandom that's sprung up around the Snyder films is so peculiar. I actually slept by MoS up until the commotion around BvS made me curious. Then I finally sat down and watched the films and they're just 3-star sci-fi flicks with an aesthetic. Like, drat, this is what y'all are so upset about?
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Feb 15, 2021 22:57
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Vince MechMahon posted:The sequel literally starts by showing that it was 9/11 times a thousand and there were buildings falling around all over the fuckin place. From the world engine
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Feb 15, 2021 22:59
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You know, you would have to give Batman a different motivation, but if you switch the destruction caused in man of steel with that in Batman vs Superman, it would actually be way better. He was previously able to overcome this other threat with minimal damage, but Doomsday is so hosed and killing so many people the he literally has to die to stop it.
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Feb 15, 2021 22:59
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Schwarzwald posted:This is where I'm at as well. It's the least surprising thing in the world when a big budget franchise gets an ardent fandom, but the anti-fandom that's sprung up around the Snyder films is so peculiar. Personally while I didn’t like Man of Steel at all I never really felt particularly negative towards Snyder or the fandom until CD started slobbering all over it and him in the most obnoxious way possible. I assume this is what people outside of SA encountered too.
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Feb 15, 2021 23:00
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bushisms.txt posted:I recently watched the film and for me it was a fine superhero film, and no real flaws, which could be a number of things. I genuinely want to know. But this Pa Kent and his characterization are an enormous flaw. Yes, it's obvious what Snyder was trying to say with him; he's a loving father who's protective of his son and so tries to hide him from the world but in the end he teaches Clark through example with his ultimate sacrifice. But this is executed poorly. The audience comes away with the impression that Jonathan Kent is a callous, cowardly man. This is not because the audience is ignorant. How ideas are presented is as important as what those ideas are. Something as simple as Jonathan's first word being "Maybe" after Clark asks him if he should have let those kids die completely sabotages his characterization. That's terrible. Silence would have been better. It left the audience horrified, and nothing that came after mattered. Again, you can't blame the audience for that. That's why things like pacing and tone are so important.
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Feb 15, 2021 23:00
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all of Man of Steel is about the cost of (super)heroism??
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Feb 15, 2021 23:01
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Phylodox posted:Pa Kent and his characterization are an enormous flaw. Yes, it's obvious what Snyder was trying to say with him; he's a loving father who's protective of his son and so tries to hide him from the world but in the end he teaches Clark through example with his ultimate sacrifice. But this is executed poorly. The audience comes away with the impression that Jonathan Kent is a callous, cowardly man. This is not because the audience is ignorant. How ideas are presented is as important as what those ideas are. Something as simple as Jonathan's first word being "Maybe" after Clark asks him if he should have let those kids die completely sabotages his characterization. That's terrible. Silence would have been better. It left the audience horrified, and nothing that came after mattered. Again, you can't blame the audience for that. That's why things like pacing and tone are so important. I didn't come away with the impression that Jonathan Kent was callous and cowardly, but rather that he didn't have all the answers and was afraid. You don't have to see the sequel, where Clark remembers/imagines him describing the traumatic event that made him feel this way, in order to understand that he's afraid of unintended consequences arising from attempts to do good. I'm not alone in coming away with this impression. Perhaps we should talk about it.
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Feb 15, 2021 23:07
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Bongo Bill posted:I didn't come away with the impression that Jonathan Kent was callous and cowardly, but rather that he didn't have all the answers and was afraid. I'm not alone in coming away with this impression. Perhaps we should talk about it. I think you will find that nebulous theater audiences all agree with me.
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Feb 15, 2021 23:08
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John Wick of Dogs posted:I don't recall him wiping out any skyscrapers full of people tbh. He gets tossed through a couple. Most of the fight against Zod is in an area under construction. The ship he brings down hits a couple skyscrapers on the very edge of the already destroyed section of metropolis. So, here's the scene https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0e9deNaNMJM&t=31s. One of the skyscrapers seems to be a bit already damaged but most are standing. Superman destroys the ship, it crashes into the buildings, many, many people presumably die. And the sequel does clarify that the ship is meant to be wiping out multiple buildings in a non destroyed section which really sells how many people are probably killed here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3iFiv7_33TM&t=97s Again, I don't think this is necessarily an awful choice if you deal with Superman suffering under the weight of this nightmarish decision/unintended consequence but he's having a kiss moments later. If it was me who had to do that, I'd probably vomit, then have a panic attack. Karloff fucked around with this message at 23:11 on Feb 15, 2021 |
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Feb 15, 2021 23:09
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