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My stance is that we need to take a deal. Not specifically the deal they've put out, I largely agree with the additional clauses put forth here, but we need to come to an understanding with the Japanese and the UN nations as a whole if we're ever going to have Earth, and humanity as a whole, peacefully cooperate towards a shared future. They've put every single card they had on the table, including confidential intel they had no obligation to show they were in possession of, and the message I get from them is, essentially, that after they did all their research, gathered all the information they could, and weighed every option? They've come to the conclusion that the only future they will have is through working with the Comintern. That's really it. They need us, and we know that, and they know that, and they're giving us the best opportunity we will ever get to take that first step on bringing the rest of humanity into a socialist interplanetary future. Find a deal that works for both sides, tie their economies and populations with ours, so that breaking ties would be so unimaginably costly that it won't be considered, and by doing so, ensure peace. The Japanese see what's coming and don't want to get left behind in History's dust. They want to be part of our future. I say, ensure workers' rights to organize, ensure free participation in government for leftist political organizations, offer assistance with decolonialization via our own established ministries, and get an agreement that they'll adhere to interplanetary law as laid out by MOSA. I also want to propose an idea, not necessarily contingent on a deal, but something that may make things easier for us down the line. Form an international logistical and political organization to facilitate and standardize international cooperation between different polities' space agencies. Something that will have the groundwork laid and protocols in place to make working together for scientific, humanitarian, economic, and possibly even defense goals easier down the line. If we can entwine ourselves, and make cooperation a natural choice regardless of ideology, it's our best chance of coming to a shared understanding and future for humanity that is free from war and conflict. Many tribes, one people. zanni fucked around with this message at 12:47 on Feb 16, 2021 |
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Feb 16, 2021 12:23
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Also the UAWR is for outright rejecting any recognition granted to us by the UN. The UN is a useless farce of a capitalist organization that did nothing to stop the outbreak of global war and even less to help rebuild afterwards. The true community of nations is the Fourth Internationale and it recognizes no pretenders.
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Feb 16, 2021 12:40
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The people on Earth can peacefully cooperate all they want once they're all part of the Comintern. We do indeed need to leave Japan in history's dust, as the final proof that capitalism will be just a short blip in human history between the time of kings and that of the people. We don't need capitalists in the future or to tie ourselves to capitalist economies, that'd just be going against everything that's gone on during the revolutionary wars and after. We certainly don't need to prop up every capitalist state that still exists on Earth. If they want help, let their people rise up and then we can send some help alright. There's also already an international logistical and political organization to facilitate and standardize international cooperation between different polities' space agencies. It's called the Comintern. NewMars posted:Also the UAWR is for outright rejecting any recognition granted to us by the UN. The UN is a useless farce of a capitalist organization that did nothing to stop the outbreak of global war and even less to help rebuild afterwards. The true community of nations is the Fourth Internationale and it recognizes no pretenders. Aha, yes. And since it's gone unclaimed this long, I guess I'll have the Eleventh French Republic. Please bear with us, we might move on to the twelfth soon, or fourth people's republic, we'll see how that goes. 
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Feb 16, 2021 12:51
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Pirate Radar posted:I think if we don’t reject them outright we should do our best to promote this as a gesture towards the United Nations and not towards Japan directly. To go back to this, my reasoning comes from a concern that if this is a Comintern-Japan bilateral thing, it will make it out like they’re right, Comintern nations are vassals of a larger power instead of being equal members. We may not like the UN but dealing Comintern-UN would avoid portraying Japan as on equal status to the whole Comintern.
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Feb 16, 2021 13:20
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Pirate Radar posted:To go back to this, my reasoning comes from a concern that if this is a Comintern-Japan bilateral thing, it will make it out like they’re right, Comintern nations are vassals of a larger power instead of being equal members. We may not like the UN but dealing Comintern-UN would avoid portraying Japan as on equal status to the whole Comintern. I'd support that approach.
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Feb 16, 2021 13:24
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From Mister Bates' post it sounds like Japan's got the UN by the balls, not sure it'd do more than superficial PR. Also not sure we should contribute to reviving the UN by officially acknowledging it, it might be better to let it fade into obscurity like all the other odious elements of the old world.
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Feb 16, 2021 13:41
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I think we should at least attempt a dialogue before we commit to what will probably become a war in the future; we've just come out of an already bloody conflict and its preceding tensions, and I don't think people would be particularly keen for what could potentially be another one. I'd say negotiate with them as much as we can, there's no reason not to at least until it becomes clear they aren't acting in good faith. It'd be better to vote on whether to decline a deal or not when we have something more final than this initial offer - we have a much stronger negotiating position than they do and we absolutely can get some more concessions out of this.
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Feb 16, 2021 13:50
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Antilles posted:From Mister Bates' post it sounds like Japan's got the UN by the balls, not sure it'd do more than superficial PR. Also not sure we should contribute to reviving the UN by officially acknowledging it, it might be better to let it fade into obscurity like all the other odious elements of the old world. The UN as it exists now has very questionable continuity from the former organization by that name and detractors have called it an instrument of Japanese foreign policy. The physical UN headquarters still exists in the Five Nations of Manhattan, although the organization's leadership evacuated to Japan as the US was collapsing and the building was occupied by scavenger gangs for several years. The lower floors are a museum now, the upper floors are abandoned pending redevelopment. Mister Bates fucked around with this message at 14:59 on Feb 16, 2021 |
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Feb 16, 2021 14:56
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Mister Bates posted:The UN as it exists now has very questionable continuity from the former organization by that name and detractors have called it an instrument of Japanese foreign policy. HA. Yeah, in which case we should come to quorum within the representatives of Comintern and then talk to Japan, setting for red lines and so on. If the "UN" is simply a cypher for Japanese interests then it serves no purpose for us to justify it unless our members wish to.
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Feb 16, 2021 14:58
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Antilles posted:From Mister Bates' post it sounds like Japan's got the UN by the balls, not sure it'd do more than superficial PR. Also not sure we should contribute to reviving the UN by officially acknowledging it, it might be better to let it fade into obscurity like all the other odious elements of the old world. Yeah, it’s not a perfect solution. I need to think of a way—assuming we aren’t doing World War IV—to frame it politically so that we don’t say the Japanese are right about the nature of the Comintern while still keeping it acceptable to them. Doubtless, of course, there will be domestic criticism in our member nations of any effort to work in cooperation with a capital-E Empire.
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Feb 16, 2021 15:00
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Pirate Radar posted:Yeah, it’s not a perfect solution. I need to think of a way—assuming we aren’t doing World War IV—to frame it politically so that we don’t say the Japanese are right about the nature of the Comintern while still keeping it acceptable to them. Doubtless, of course, there will be domestic criticism in our member nations of any effort to work in cooperation with a capital-E Empire. "As far as we're concerned the UN no longer exists, it stopped existing [date when their HQ was evacuated]. Any dealings ComIntern will have with Japan will happen with Japan directly, and no, you're not the equal of ComIntern itself, you're the equal of any one of its member polities." ?
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Feb 16, 2021 15:30
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Lol come on what the hell kind of communists would we be if we helped an openly capitalist, openly monarchist, openly colonial EMPIRE start doing their bullshit all over again in space? The Japanese belong in the dustbin of history, the UN is a complete joke (and we should tell them as much instead of recognizing it), and the Comintern/MOSA represent all of humanity and its member states, joining is not vassalage. If the Japanese would like to decolonize, agree to a minimum program of transition towards socialism or at least worker's democracy, and apply for associate status with the Comintern they are fully welcome to. Until then, the capitalist vampires trying to act tough can go gently caress themselves. Their era is over.
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Feb 16, 2021 15:51
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Yeah, i'm in favor of refusing this particular deal. Suggest that trade, peaceful trade is still an option. I don't think anyone wants to invade Japan. But long term, I think taking this deal is a bad idea.
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Feb 16, 2021 16:00
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The whole "oh boo hoo poor us we were colonized too you know" narrative is conveniently ignoring some pretty critical history between 1905 and 1945 (which might I remind everyone Hirohito himself was personally around for a solid chunk of). The oh so very "subtle" attempt to imply they have vast amounts of TNE's is a bluff or at least bending the truth a bit to spook us, and they wouldn't be asking for us to build them a starter fleet if they felt confident the Hawaiians/domestic programs could do it. They put up a good front, but they're professional diplomats that's literally their job. Don't get spooked, we have the upper hand, I don't want to be super antagonistic here but the whole "joining the Comintern means we become a Soviet/Chinese colony" narrative is such a laughable notion that should be discarded immediately (especially given what the Japanese spent decades doing to China, not the other way around). If they want in on MOSA assets, they can apply for associate membership and we can work out some kind of transition deal to at minimum a pink worker's democracy. We should NOT be helping get colonial empires back off the ground. Crazycryodude fucked around with this message at 16:10 on Feb 16, 2021 |
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Feb 16, 2021 16:07
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Crazycryodude posted:The whole "oh boo hoo poor us we were colonized too you know" narrative is conveniently ignoring some pretty critical history between 1905 and 1945 (which might I remind everyone Hirohito himself was personally around for a solid chunk of). The oh so very "subtle" attempt to imply they have vast amounts of TNE's is a bluff or at least bending the truth a bit to spook us, and they wouldn't be asking for us to build them a starter fleet if they felt confident the Hawaiians/domestic programs could do it. They put up a good front, but they're professional diplomats that's literally their job. Absolutely agree. Also we know they've either been behind or supporting GLADIO, given their threats. Any dealing must include what they know about it: assets, agents funding etc - and stopping any involvement on Japan's part in it. Then once our research is completed we can verify on our end how complete and accurate they have been with us and act accordingly.
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Feb 16, 2021 16:38
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I don't think we can really be too wedded to the idea that we will not allow Capitalists into space considering that we share part of Luna with a monarchy.
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Feb 16, 2021 16:55
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There's a slight difference between letting figurehead monarchies stick around for silly cultural reasons and being an active contributor to reviving one of the major colonial empires of the century imo
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Feb 16, 2021 16:57
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Crazycryodude posted:There's a slight difference between letting figurehead monarchies stick around for silly cultural reasons and being an active contributor to reviving one of the major colonial empires of the century imo Still Monarchists, still Capitalists. Also the idea that Hawaii and other antipodean powers would not help Japan into space is ignored throughout your narrative. The bigger question is to what level we should check up on things and try to come to an arrangement with Japan. Personally I don't think we should simply "give" things to the government of Japan, but we should attempt to maximise the good we can do for the people. Currently the Japanese elective system is returning a large subset of Communist and other Socialist parties. They have not yet reached the point where that is enough to join comintern but it very well could be within less than the next few years.
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Feb 16, 2021 17:02
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The People's Republic of California cannot agree to those terms as they stand. Japan is the equivalent of the PRC, not the Comintern. However, this indicates we should fast-track the efforts to establish Luna as an independent state. We need to be able to demonstrate that we have no colonies and are not colonizers, so we can insist on the same if and when Japan gets to space independently.
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Feb 16, 2021 17:16
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I mean, let's not forget something important. Nuclear war or no, the Japanese Left, as of 1982 in our real life timeline, was still alive for the most part. It would only die later in that decade to the excess of the 1980's economic boom.
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Feb 16, 2021 17:36
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So, if I may summarize. Japan is offering us: -The official recognition of an illegitimate intenational organization that has no power and largely exists on paper -The withdrawal of recognition from a government that is, also, an illegitimate organization with no power that largely exists in paper -Removal of the veiled threat of... less than 1% of the Soviet Union's strategic nuclear arsenal, that less than a year of research will render utterly toothless with railgin PD -Vague unquantifiable encouragement of India negotiating with us in better faith than they themselves are right now -A free flowing of goods and services from Japan, when the Comintern already largely boasts an incredibly high quality of life and unprecedented material prosperity -Technology and information, when they've yet to tell or show us anything we don't already know -TNEs, which we have more of every day and we haven't even started off-world exploitation of yet And in exchange, they're asking for: -Recognition of their capitalist redoubt and their sham UN as rivals and equals to the entire Comintern, essentially now and forever -Enough survey craft and freighters to establish space colonies, ensuring that Capitalism will spread to the stars and become exponentially harder to ever definitively extinguish -Not having to potentially engage in a war that by their own admission we will inevitably win anyway, that THEY seem to think will be drawn out even though we'd have space superiority and could, within two years, have the ability to shell any point on Earth with orbital velocities and pinpoint accuracy. For being Capitalists, they have a poor understanding of Supply and Demand, as nothing they offer is something we lack or want. Not for the price they demand. They want to be our equals in space? Then they can join the Comintern, and be part of a global brotherhood of equals. We'd be honored to have them. They wouldn't even need to entirely abandon the free market. Meet our criteria, and they can be full equal partners in Mankind's shared future, knowing prosperity unlike anything they've ever known. This is not gunboat diplomacy, this is not colonialism, this is an offer in good faith to add to the joint fostering of the future, as TRUE equals. They're right, there won't be another Cold War. Cold War requires Mutually Assured Destruction, and that is impossible now. By their own admission the best they could do is destroy themselves in the name of spiting us. Maybe in some other timeline Capitalism would be bargaining from a position of greater strength and parity, but that is not the here and now, and all they offer are throwing pennies at us and expecting us to dance, with even their threats and bluffs more appealing to our sense of pity. Like they said, they can be our subordinates, or our Equals.
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Feb 16, 2021 17:46
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Related-ish question: approximately how autonomously do comintern members function? Do they have a say in their own military affairs, or in the event of a war would every comintern state have to contribute (regardless of whether they'd want to)? I'm not sure if this has already been answered at some point, so apologies if it has. I feel it's probably something we should take into account before we balk at the accusation that the constituent comintern states are subordinate. Edit: I also bring this up because at the moment both sides seem to be approaching this as a deal with either the comintern as a whole, or none of it. Disproportionation fucked around with this message at 19:20 on Feb 16, 2021 |
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Feb 16, 2021 19:15
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It would be extremely nice to be able to hold the United States Federal Government accountable for their crimes. There's something to be said for a public trial here.
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Feb 16, 2021 19:48
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So I'm done some more thinking (ie got some sleep) and yeah, I don't know why I was going to bat so hard for this. I had some kind of idea about an approach of holding them close and making them need us, but egh. I still stand by the stance that war should not even on the table here, but we definitely need a lot more concessions from Japan to even consider allowing them into space. Like, 'join the Comintern, hand over the American government-in-exile, try old Japanese war criminals, make a transition from a capitalist society and into a socialist one, decolonize the Ainu, and dismantle the UN' concessions. Can't believe I fell for their poo poo before. Eugh.
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Feb 16, 2021 20:09
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Disproportionation posted:Related-ish question: approximately how autonomously do comintern members function? Do they have a say in their own military affairs, or in the event of a war would every comintern state have to contribute (regardless of whether they'd want to)? I'm not sure if this has already been answered at some point, so apologies if it has. There is a mutual defense agreement in place and the various national militaries, would, in the event of a war, be subject to a unified allied command. Most Comintern members maintain their own national military. There is a Comintern military, the Interplanetary People's Army, which reports directly to the organization. It has one brigade of combat troops on Earth (or, more accurately, four independent battalions, most of them dispersed and operating as autonomous company-sized units), one battalion of combat troops on the Moon, a training battalion, and a thousand or so support and logistical staff. In terms of diplomatic affairs and internal politics it's...confused. Comintern members are technically permitted to carry out separate foreign relations, and often do with each other, but are strongly discouraged from engaging in their own foreign relations with non-member states. Some of them do it anyway, mostly out of necessity where the local situation warrants it. Domestically there's a set of unified guiding principles all member nations are required to abide by, mostly related to a commitment to establishing a socialist political and economic system, transitioning to a hypothetical future communist society, and a slew of basic humanitarian rights and stipulations on how a government should be organized. Violating these principles carries a number of penalties beginning with censure and escalating to expulsion. The Comintern technically does not have the power to intervene in domestic politics of member states directly and technically the worst a member can currently suffer is merely being kicked out of the alliance. This was sufficient threat back when there was a war on. In practice it's a lot fuzzier and the Comintern absolutely exercises influence on the internal politics of its members, but unofficially, in a wink-wink-nudge-nudge kind of way. This started out as an alliance of necessity in the face of an immediate existential threat, and has remained as unified as it is largely because of the great economic and social benefits of doing so, rather than because it has strong and stable institutions or a single unified vision. It's definitely grown closer together over the last few years, but forging a united socialist world republic or whatever out of this will take years, probably decades. If the descriptions I've given of how exactly Comintern politics work have sounded vague, that's partly to give the players room to collaboratively decide how they work, but it's also partly because they're vague in-universe, because they had to be very loose to encompass all the various left-of-center groups who joined up over the course of the war. Mister Bates fucked around with this message at 20:22 on Feb 16, 2021 |
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Feb 16, 2021 20:11
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While the current offer is certainly interesting, it leaves a rather bad taste. The implications of dealing with Japan on a equal base outside of the established structures of Comintern far outweighs the possible détente. We should not offer to construct modern vessels without formal membership, especially not for some intangible gains in regards of an already obsolete organisation and the remains of one of its former members. We should engage in a piece of haggling ourselves by making an equally unpalatable counteroffer: Japan decolonizes Hokkaido and Ryuko, the former being granted the Kuril-island chain as well as the southern tip of the Sakhalin peninsula as a gesture of mutuality by the Russian SFSR. This will visibly move the Comintern and its member states beyond the obsolete concept of empire-building. Japan formally starts the admission-progress to Comintern, dependant on adaption of a truly democratic constitution, retaining the office of, although not its current inhabitant, emperor, remaining as a religious figurehead in a similar fashion to the pope. If the Japanese are so fond of sacrifice, then Emperor Hirohito should demonstrate something of this fondness himself. This offer will most likely be rejected, but we publicly demonstrate the willingness to deal with Japan on our terms without looking like an aggressor. A more workable final deal might contain the offer of full(well, almost full) operational control of the assets requested by the Japanese in exchange for the GLADIO-spies either used or outright controlled by the empire of Japan.
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Feb 16, 2021 20:24
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I'm curious what the UN Security Council looks like.
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Feb 16, 2021 20:30
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GunnerJ posted:I'm curious what the UN Security Council looks like. From the server, 'the current permanent UNSC is Japan, two Japan-based rump governments, and a couple of microstates, established with at best questionable legality, and the UN as it exists now is functionally an organ of Japanese foreign policy.'
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Feb 16, 2021 20:43
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Specifically it's Japan, the US Government-in-Exile, Her Majesty's Government in Exile, the United Arab Emirates, and the Caribbean Federation, which consists of a scattering of former French and Dutch island holdings in the West Indies that have not turned socialist yet and is considered a de facto French successor government (although it insists it is not).
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Feb 16, 2021 20:52
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Japan will get to space eventually. That's a given. Our choice is whether we want to accelerate it. At the moment, we have a substantial head start on the remaining capitalist powers, and the disparity increases with every outpost we build, every exploration and surveying expedition we execute, and every xenoarcheological site we uncover. With that dynamic in mind, the Kalamazoo Workers' Assembly proposes a policy of wary indifference towards Japan and the other capitalist powers. We will not interfere with their development efforts nor attempt to enforce our dominance over them. They will be welcome to find their way to space as our equals, in their due time. Now, without our helping hand their ascent to the stars may stretch years and years, and they're likely to find a red cosmos awaiting--but that is their problem if they want to go their own way. And if their capitalist jealousy takes our disinclination to subsidize their imperialist ambition as some sort of sign of aggression, or if they are found to be harboring GLADIO elements, they can be reminded that the workers have won two world wars already.
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Feb 16, 2021 20:53
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If we're getting embroiled in Earthly diplomatic bullshit, can we maybe get a world map at the end of this year Bates? Even if the inside-Comintern borders aren't detailed, since they tend to change a bit depending on who's posting, I think. How many people now consider themselves Comintern citizens first, and their nations second? It was in... 1978 I think you said a lot of people were nation first, Comintern second (a win in itself already really), but that might have changed some with those measures we passed (relating to Lunar colony status and citizenship, languages and laws). And then once we start making announcements about Mars, I suppose it'll go up again. Mister Bates posted:considered a de facto French successor government (although it insists it is not). Hahahaha. Is the Caribbean Federation's leadership made up of Europeans or locals? Oh, and, are India and Pakistan UN members at all still? And drat, I thought our overture to India was specifically to their communist parties and offering support, rather than the whole country? Though I guess receiving aid from the Comintern can help their local communists and socialists convince others to join. Unless the help just well, helps the government stabilize and oppress.
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Feb 16, 2021 21:03
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Kodos666 posted:
Bolding mine. We might be able to actually frame this as a positive for them, a way to sweeten the deal of joining the Comintern; an excuse to adopt a new Constitution that, while more democratic and socialist-friendly, strips out the more punitive stuff the Americans forced in back in the day. I'm sure they'd like to have an actual official military again. Plus they might like to not have to pixellate their porn anymore.
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Feb 16, 2021 21:05
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If I may risk being blunt to my comrades, you are being far, far too dismissive of many of these. First and foremost, the nuclear weapons. quote:-Removal of the veiled threat of... less than 1% of the Soviet Union's strategic nuclear arsenal, that less than a year of research will render utterly toothless with railgin PD Now, I do not know how much some of my colleagues' countries were targeted with nuclear weapons in the last War. Fletcher looks quite grim. I can send you pictures from Erfurt or the FEZ, if you would like object examples. Fletcher holds up a photograph of a missile on a launch pad, stamped with UNITED STATES NAVY - BUNDESMARINE. United States submarines, at the last point where there was a United States, were armed with Polaris A-3 missiles. These have a range of 4,600 kilometers, which is to say effectively infinite. They were also armed with the W-58 warhead -- or more accurately, three of them. That is three 200 kiloton weapons, each ten times the force of the Hiroshima bomb, which are used to effectively shotgun a target, such as a city, out of existence. Fletcher puts the photograph down. These weapons are an existential threat simply by existing. If they are offering to take them off the table by taking them out of the hands of the US rump government, the DVR considers that an utmost priority. quote:-The official recognition of an illegitimate intenational organization that has no power and largely exists on paper The United Nations was recognized by and participated in by all extant socialist countries at the time of the War, with the exception of North Korea and my own Germany. Fletcher's voice doesn't change at that, but there is a tightness in his face. Neither Germany was allowed into the UN. It held considerable sway in the defining of international law, and we still use pieces of UN treaty structure out of sheer convenience and common sense. Even if it is basically now an arm of Japan, it is a name with weight and they clearly see it as such. Furthermore, the U.S. Government-in-Exile is the largest, most powerful, and most well-funded of the five or so splinter inheritor governments. This is a relative statement, but it is also an accurate one, and a relevant one. It controls the Voice of America and has the broadest reach in the former US territory, and also undoubtedly has some degree of sway and influence in Hawaii, what with the presence of so much former US government apparatus and personnel. Taking them off the table would be a major boost to our efforts to bring the American splinter states into the Comintern. In addition to this, their economic proposals are offering to make them work with us, rather than parallel to or against us, which means more TNEs and economic power we can use for our aims instead of using it to counter them. These are also not nothing. Fletcher restacks his papers. The DVR would like to make an offer. Japan appears to be under the American-inspired illusion that the Comintern is an empire in the old model. That we are basically all constituent Soviet republics answering to Moscow's dictate. He is interrupted by some very angry shouting from the Soviet representative, and it takes a minute or two of back-and-forth before that settles down. Aaanyway. This is not true, we all know it is not true, and we have worked hard to make sure we all function as equal voices in our Comintern. Hell, having the UN present -- which was definitely not designed like that, what with the permanent Security Council -- may be coloring this view. Japan has extensive experience being on both sides of the imperial coin, but from their perspective they most strongly remember being the subject, having watched what the old empires did to China, and experiencing first the Unequal Treaties and then being little more than a US puppet after World War 2. The DVR would like to volunteer to try to dispel this illusion. Germany thirty years ago was a nation cut in half, only viewed as fit to serve as the battleground and plaything of the Cold War. More protests from the Soviet delegate, but less overly outraged. Now we are a proud, independent socialist nation, with a mighty economy and prosperity for our citizenry. We would like to reassure them that there are no subjects in the Comintern, and that they can expect to be treated as an equal. No protestations, and Fletcher smiles. Provided, of course, they agree to our terms.
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Feb 16, 2021 21:06
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The thing we're worried about here is Japan just pulling the same trick as they've done before and becoming a colonial empire in space. As such, the UAWR proposes a general idea, to be specified by my comrades and the diplomats: Japan can have all the ships it want. But any off world population is not a part of japan, but to be considered new nations and will be treated as such. Edit: although.. while it sounds good in theory, this one might be a bit difficult in practice. NewMars fucked around with this message at 21:24 on Feb 16, 2021 |
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Feb 16, 2021 21:14
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NewMars posted:The thing we're worried about here is Japan just pulling the same trick as they've done before and becoming a colonial empire in space. As such, the UAWR proposes a general idea, to be specified by my comrades and the diplomats: Seconding this notion. Something similar as for Comintern colonies maybe? Everything with more than XXXXX inhabitants gets a chance to go independet; if a votum is involved,it has to be monitored by international observers. Let's say we add a few more strategic conditions, sign a treaty etc, and keep the peace: Japan will still need to spend a lot of its limited resources on a small exploration/colonisation programme that will not be able to compete with us (except they find some kind of crazy alien tech out there...maybe also add something to the treaty about that stuff, too?). We should technically be able to keep them contained and have additional time for further diplomatic & spying efforts that will eventually destabilise the Japanese empire and make a peaceful transition possible. I'd also be very happy to have these 24 nukes out of our faces via treaty. Yes, they might not be a world-ending threat, but if we act aggressively against Japan we can expect them to be used in one way or another. Most likeley scenario is that a lot of them are 'lost' and turn up in the hands of Gladio groups all over the planet. Having up to 24 of our cities nuked by carefully planted mega bombs will not really help us...
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Feb 16, 2021 21:49
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Sanev.Khan posted:If we're getting embroiled in Earthly diplomatic bullshit, can we maybe get a world map at the end of this year Bates? Even if the inside-Comintern borders aren't detailed, since they tend to change a bit depending on who's posting, I think. one of the things I'm working on for the end of this year (and one of the reasons this year is taking so long) is a basic world map and 'State of the World 1982' summary, along with a list of all currently active Comintern legislation. The Carribean Federation leadership is all European. India and Pakistan are both in the UN, and also have an extremely awkward defensive alliance. The India mission will be in tonight's update. Mister Bates fucked around with this message at 21:56 on Feb 16, 2021 |
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Feb 16, 2021 21:53
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SavageGentleman posted:I'd also be very happy to have these 24 nukes out of our faces via treaty. Yes, they might not be a world-ending threat, but if we act aggressively against Japan we can expect them to be used in one way or another. Most likeley scenario is that a lot of them are 'lost' and turn up in the hands of Gladio groups all over the planet. Having up to 24 of our cities nuked by carefully planted mega bombs will not really help us... Yeah this is important, we haven't really considered the possibility of these warheads being used as planted explosives rather than via ICBM (though I don't know how feasible that is, so grain of salt). I figure as well we could mandate that cooperation is dependant on any japanese space presence being run in a similar or more strict manner to the SDF? That is, purely for defence against aggression from a specifically (i.e. they can't use them either if any territory they create attempts independence) outside power.
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Feb 16, 2021 21:56
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let's not yada yada the nuclear missiles I think driving some hard bargains and aiming for japan joining the comintern is a good route. as a bargaining tool, revealing what's out there (e.g. aleins) may be a useful attention focuser. I also like the idea of space settlements over a certain size having a right to join the comintern via externally verified vote.
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Feb 16, 2021 22:10
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If Japan wants to get into space, they definitely have to consent to Comintern weapons inspectors and signing a treaty agreeing to bring no weapons into space, nor producing any weapons in space. The same should go for the Hawaiians, really. Not to mention, as people say, every settlement of a certain size being guaranteed the right to vote for independence or comintern membership from Japan, and Japan generally signing treaties binding them to guarantee workers' rights and the like. Oh and, of course, this is all going to be contingent on them assisting in the total eradication of GLADIO. If we get the faintest hint that they're holding anything back in that arena, the deal's off and they'll be considered a hostile political entity.
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Feb 16, 2021 22:14
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Asterite34 posted:Like they said, they can be our subordinates, or our Equals. Indeed. They're offering the Comintern hot air in exchange for giving them special treatment. If they do not want to be an equal partner member state, then they can remain non members with all the unfortunate elements that includes.
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Feb 16, 2021 22:15
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