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Let's not forget that the Eclipse was not a single event or decision. When Griffith sacrificed everything he was a broken man with no recourse; what he did to Casca and Guts came after his ascent to godhood. Each act informs our understanding of the other, but they come from very different places. Edit: a page snipe worthy of the thread
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Feb 16, 2021 23:58
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"God has already chosen your destiny, but it is up to each person to make the choices, or so I believe."
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Feb 17, 2021 00:25
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Bisse posted:I would say your argument falls apart because Griffith had the choice of saying 'No, I do not sacrifice'. My argument is that Griffith did the wrong thing and made an evil choice. It's the first sentence of my post. My argument includes the observation that Griffith understands himself to be outside of human morality and that he was conducted to his godhead by destiny. He is beyond good and evil in his own mind, not in my mind. To the extent that the reader aligns with this view of fate/choice, Griffith's actions become less one-dimensional. This in no way justifies his actions. I continually emphasize that human morality is obliged to condemn him, and also that Miura's writing condemns him. I don't know how the claim that the interplay between will, desire, fate, and circumstance are a central theme to Berserk's characterization of both Guts and Griffith is a contested claim. Bisse posted:Evil gods are perhaps not evil because they don't consider themselves evil? Viridiant posted:Yeah anytime someone talks about being beyond human morality I expect them to end their speech with "Mwahahahaha!" Gods and people exist in different moral spheres in the same way that people and animals exist in different moral spheres. Is the shark in "Jaws" evil? Are we all familiar with Euthyphro dilemma? It asks whether something is moral because it pleases god, or whether something pleases god because it is moral. If morality is more primary than deity, then there theoretically is a way to judge a god in a way that matters, if morality proceeds from deity then there is only obedience and disobedience. The question "would you do something evil if God told you to?/could it even be evil if it was God's will?" is one of Kierkegaard's big anxieties. My post was not an attempt to vindicate Griffith, only to highlight that morality becomes a hairier topic when destiny and divinity are brought into consideration, especially since Griffith is both god and a person in the story. We witness him both as a direct-to-video cenobite (as somebody said) and as an angel-king in a progressive utopia. He does considerably more evil than Guts, and considerably more good. It's some serious "The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas" poo poo in Falconia. christmas boots posted:I think fate is a convenient excuse to abdicate the responsibility of one's actions. I think the treatment of fate in Berserk is a key to its literary richness. Like, Oedipus learns his fate, tries to avoid it, it doesn't matter - he still commits evil actions. Macbeth learns his fate, tries to exploit it, it blows up in his face. Is it morally preferable to be Oedipus instead of Macbeth? Griffith answers this in his own way. Lucasar fucked around with this message at 00:57 on Feb 17, 2021 |
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Feb 17, 2021 00:50
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i think it's useful to look at this through the lens of a greek tragedy was oedipus doomed to his tragic end by the prophecy made before his birth? was it fate, out of his control? sure, but only so far as his ultimate downfall is brought about by the hubris he displays after his rise to kingship, which due to a character was a choice he was always going to make, it was inherent to him. now there is a coherent framework to deny freewill here, but it would extend equally to everyone. i know the text might occasionally imply otherwise, but putting the text aside, if guts makes a different choice it's only because the experiences he has had has given him a different character, there's no real metaphysical difference edit: god drat it, beaten to the oedipus reference by a single post
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Feb 17, 2021 00:52
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This whole discussion kind of shows the problem with interpretations that focus on fate and causality. That line of inquiry almost always comes down to something like: "But are Griffith's actions during the eclipse really proof that he's evil?" And that's not just some abstract debate about an interesting literary topic; it's inseparable from important real-life questions about accountability and about social structures that frequently let powerful people get away with almost anything. While I'm not sure if "evil" as applied to persons is a useful metric in general, I'd go so far as to say that if the text enables the interpretation that Griffith's actions are justifiable or excusable, then that's a moral flaw of the text. And then the question is whether a work of literature should be judged in moral terms, which is a very complicated question, but in my opinion a potentially more fruitful one than this discussion about divine morality.
Carpator Diei fucked around with this message at 02:23 on Feb 17, 2021 |
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Feb 17, 2021 02:13
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Carpator Diei posted:This whole discussion kind of shows the problem with interpretations that focus on fate and causality. That line of inquiry almost always comes down to something like: "But are Griffith's actions during the eclipse really proof that he's evil?" And that's not just some abstract debate about an interesting literary topic; it's inseparable from important real-life questions about accountability and about social structures that frequently let powerful people get away with almost anything. While I'm not sure if "evil" as applied to persons is a useful metric in general, I'd go so far as to say that if the text enables the interpretation that Griffith's actions are justifiable or excusable, then that's a moral flaw of the text. And then the question is whether a work of literature should be judged in moral terms, which is a very complicated question, but in my opinion a potentially more fruitful one than this discussion about divine morality. The discussion about divine morality is relevant to your concerns about real-life accountability. Miura is Japanese - traditional feudal Japanese ethics were defined in relation to the will of an emperor who ruled by divine right. If the emperor said to do it, it was the right thing to do because of that. He was above human judgment. He was forced to renounce his claim to godhead, an act which radically recasts the morality of all kinds of actions taken on his behalf during the war. Cruelty that had been justified by the commands of god was now unjustifiable cruelty at the command of an imperialist. In the USA there was a nontrivial amount of people who lovingly referred to Donald Trump as "GEOTUS" - the God-Emperor of the United States. I agree that the text must not and cannot enable a simple justification of Griffith, but I equally think the text would fail if it did not portray Griffith's choice to buy into his own exceptionalism and destiny as a truly seductive one. And not only seductive because it gives Griffith power and a new body, things that he may want selfishly, but seductive because it asks whether or not the good he can do as god outweighs the wickedness he must do to become one. His arrogance and ambition and idealism lead him to this choice, but so do his bitterness, insecurity, and jealousy. I don't think literary fate is the same as some sort of reductive determinism, like, Griffith is an automaton pre-programmed to choose, but rather that Griffith's fate flows from his nature just as his nature urges him towards his fate. Griffith embraces his nature and his fate. Guts struggles against his nature and his fate.
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Feb 17, 2021 02:52
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Carpator Diei posted:This whole discussion kind of shows the problem with interpretations that focus on fate and causality. That line of inquiry almost always comes down to something like: "But are Griffith's actions during the eclipse really proof that he's evil?" And that's not just some abstract debate about an interesting literary topic; it's inseparable from important real-life questions about accountability and about social structures that frequently let powerful people get away with almost anything. While I'm not sure if "evil" as applied to persons is a useful metric in general, I'd go so far as to say that if the text enables the interpretation that Griffith's actions are justifiable or excusable, then that's a moral flaw of the text. And then the question is whether a work of literature should be judged in moral terms, which is a very complicated question, but in my opinion a potentially more fruitful one than this discussion about divine morality. Again it's high philosophy. The question is "is it your fault how and where you are born?" If you are born with the chemicals to create your brain and exposed to the life experiences that you had no choice in to mold it to make the decisions it makes, is that fault or bad luck? One of the greatest philosophical questions ever, and are also why the right generally leans towards the death penalty while the left tries to address social/etc. aspects. A contingent of people will always hate causality because they then feel they have no actual agency because things out of their control shape who they are. And Berserk is kind of a story about the fight against this by pure will. Berserk says everyone is fated by their experiences as molded by gods except Guts. Guts can just break through it. And Griffith is his direct foil. Darko fucked around with this message at 14:15 on Feb 17, 2021 |
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Feb 17, 2021 03:03
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Can I just say, the sheer fact we can have this kind of complex conversation about morality and the nature of what it even means to be a person and the complexities therein, without it being SO FAR BEYOND THE SCOPE of what the work is actually about, is one of the things I loving love about Berserk Like yeah okay there are plenty of hard edged super serious fantasy and sci-fi things I could track down that go into this, but none of them do it while also being loving outstanding and fun. Berserk is about a big angry man who doesn't know anything, wants to know less, has a sword as big as he is, and he loving rides demons to chop thunderstorms in half And it STILL manages to be more nuanced and philosophically fulfilling than most anything else you care to name out there
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Feb 17, 2021 03:35
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Burkion posted:Can I just say, the sheer fact we can have this kind of complex conversation about morality and the nature of what it even means to be a person and the complexities therein, without it being SO FAR BEYOND THE SCOPE of what the work is actually about, is one of the things I loving love about Berserk Oh most definitely. I tried explaining it to one of my coworkers that saw me reading it and I said it was like Game of Thrones meets Hellraiser, but philosophically profound and moving. They looked over my shoulder and saw the scene of Slan made of troll intestines being disemboweled by Guts and called bullshit.
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Feb 17, 2021 04:27
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If you like Berserk, I'd recommend the Black Company novel series. The rts Myth: The Fallen Lords was inspired by the series as well. It shares a similar medieval setting about a mercenary band that works for a capital e evil wizard killing off other evil wizards.
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Feb 17, 2021 08:22
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It never occurred to me to put them in the same category as Berserk and it's been a few years since I read them, but would absolutely recommend the Black Company books in general. They're fun.
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Feb 17, 2021 08:56
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Man goons are having deep philosophical discussions about Berserk and my latest thought was if the gang is going to sneak into Falconia it would own if they wore matching feathered caps like the one Guts had on his assassination mission.
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Feb 17, 2021 22:47
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that would be cool tbh
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Feb 18, 2021 00:39
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Hilario Baldness posted:Oh most definitely. I tried explaining it to one of my coworkers that saw me reading it and I said it was like Game of Thrones meets Hellraiser, but philosophically profound and moving. I absolutely love that Berserk is the raddest poo poo ever, while also having a nuanced, meticulously crafted epic story that poses serious philosophical questions and examines characters as they relate to fate, revenge, the circle of violence, ambition, and all that Me irl going 'mmm, yes, griffith transcends the morality of humans, yet despite his insistence he is still tied to the lives of those he hurt the most, embodied as a supernatural child, surely an inevitable turn in an upcoming tragedy' and 'holy poo poo that demon exploded oh my loving god' Proving, once and for all, that these are not opposed, and can in fact reinforce each other And that's why I am, in fact, very cultured for hanging A3 prints of dick monsters jizzing at teenage witches over my fireplace, uncultured swine
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Feb 18, 2021 15:26
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temple posted:If you like Berserk, I'd recommend the Black Company novel series. The rts Myth: The Fallen Lords was inspired by the series as well. It shares a similar medieval setting about a mercenary band that works for a capital e evil wizard killing off other evil wizards. Black company (and Myth) seriously owns.
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Feb 19, 2021 00:54
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Can confirm, have read The Black Company and have played the first two Myth games. I just wish Glen Cook could find a MacGuffin to write one more book after Soldiers Live.
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Feb 19, 2021 16:43
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Ccs posted:If anyone is chafing between chapters, I highly recommend the book "Between Two Fires" by Christopher Buehlman. It's possibly the most Berserk-esque book I've ever read, to the point that I was sure some sections were direct homages. It's historical fantasy, and the author has done a poo poo ton of research into medieval France, so it doesn't seem derivative at all. I read a ton of fantasy and this is one of the best in a long time. Chiming in also to say thanks for this recommendation! I picked up a copy after reading a sample and it is indeed very Berserk-esque. Really enjoying it so far! Has just the right amount of grim dread and dark humor 👍
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Feb 20, 2021 04:42
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Bear with me being tedious here, but I got a translation question: I have always hated the names Schierke and Farnese, because they seem pretty phony, and like they are possibly screwed up attempts to re-un-translate western names that Miura tried to render in hiragana. Sorta like how Charles Aznavour becomes whatever in hiragana, then comes out the other side as Char Aznable. That isn't even a name, but it has become the standard localization because the crossover between mech anime fans and french chanteur fans is probably small enough that it doesn't matter, and I guess it makes sense to keep your sci-fi red baron distinct from such a popular celebrity. Even the name "Guts" may well have been an attempt at Götz, referring to a historical knight (Götz von Berlichingen) with a prosthetic arm who may well be credited with coining the phrase "kiss my rear end." It just seems like sort of a happy accident that "guts" is also colloquial english for courage and determination, making the name fit either way. I sometimes see Tudor translated as Chuder as well, and it just doesn't seem as likely in my head that the made up word is more correct than the referential one. Miura uses lots of referential names such as Puck (Shakespeare), Nosferatu (famous vampire movie), Serpico (famous cop/Al Pacino movie) etc. Anyways back to my question about the girls - how sure are we that these are the most accurate translations of those names? Firstly: Farnese. A quick bit of searching makes the hiragana pretty unambiguous, and there was an influential Italian renaissance family by the name, but a considerably more popular girl's name is Firenze (which is the Italian form of the English name Florence). It has the same consonant sounds in the same order. Florence Nightingale would certainly be a less obscure reference or loan name. I think Farnese is probably more correct in this case, but it always stuck out to me as an ugly and awkward name so I looked into it. I kinda prefer the choice of Firenze, or a more liberal translation of Florence, but don't know how defensible it is from a translation standpoint. Schierke on the other hand seems like an odd one. On the one hand, I can only find one unsourced fan wiki claiming that it can be translated as "unspoilt wood" from low german (not a language I expect Miura to be riffing in), and it is also the name of an obscure village of fewer than 1000 people in Germany. On the other hand, the name Silke is a normal German girl's name meaning "heavenly," and a homonym of Silky, a benign witch/ghost/spirit from Northern England. I guess I feel like Silke/Silky is the more compelling translation here simply because it seems way more likely that a Japanese person looking for European names might actually arrive at this choice, and the legend of Silky is available enough in Japan to warrant an appearance in other Japanese media (the Persona games feature her as a creature). I don't read a ton of manga or know any more Japanese than can be worked out through Google Translate. Anybody with more Japanese knowledge can maybe provide a sturdier defense of how some of the names are translated out of and back into English? I could be way off base and I'm not really trying to seriously suggest a massive correction to the accepted versions of these characters' identities in English, moreso exploring a little peeve of mine, and hoping somebody can set me straight.
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Feb 24, 2021 02:42
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I mean on some level it's just trying to not be quite so nakedly direct for the purpose of maintaining some plausible deniability to the ascertation "You just plucked whatever you wanted from another source." That approach might be fine depending on the type of work, but I don't think Berserk is trading in the kind of verisimilitude where it's warranted, or even intended, or our resident elephant emperor would be named Kanishaka instead of Ganishaka. It's like with a kids franchise. Say you have a stinky villain. You can't just call him Stinker. So you call him Stinkor. that being said i dont buy that explanation about char because it doesn't explain all those other batshit insane uc names
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Feb 24, 2021 02:48
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OnimaruXLR posted:I mean on some level it's just trying to not be quite so nakedly direct for the purpose of maintaining some plausible deniability to the ascertation "You just plucked whatever you wanted from another source." That approach might be fine depending on the type of work, but I don't think Berserk is trading in the kind of verisimilitude where it's warranted, or even intended, or our resident elephant emperor would be named Kanishaka instead of Ganishaka. It's a fair point with some names, but not Schierke, as Silke is just a normal dang name (in Germany), and Miura isn't above that. I guess my question could be rephrased as "did the original translator know that normal name? Like they encounter "Sharurotto" and work to Charlotte, the most normal western style name that fits, instead of insisting on Sharrot or some other almost made up sounding thing. Did they not realize how close they were to a real name? And buy it or not, the Char thing is real. I can't explain any other gundam names, but that one sticks out in my head as a funny example of this type of thing. I grew up in Korea, and similar weird telephone game stuff happens moving things from english to hangul and back, so it has always amused me, and probably explains why I am questioning the translation in the first place.
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Feb 24, 2021 03:08
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The names probably did get a bit distorted in the translation but I own some Japanese volumes of Berserk and it renders the names at the beginning in English, so canonically those are their names, not just the result of Dark Horse or scanlators screwing up their reading of the katakana.
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Feb 24, 2021 03:28
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There's also something to be said for legacy translation terms on a title like Berserk, which didn't start getting official English releases for a fair bit until after the scanlations (and the Media Blasters release of the 90s anime, as well as the Dreamcast game) i'll take schierke over gattsu any day
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Feb 24, 2021 03:40
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Also Japanese sometimes flat out does not translate nicely. Even in work officially localized, some names can be done a million loving different ways. Ask I, the Ultraman fan, how many ways one can spell Gomora
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Feb 24, 2021 04:05
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OnimaruXLR posted:There's also something to be said for legacy translation terms on a title like Berserk, which didn't start getting official English releases for a fair bit until after the scanlations (and the Media Blasters release of the 90s anime, as well as the Dreamcast game) something that always interested me that I never really got an answer for or understood is that in final fantasy tactics the main characters special abilities are all listed under the command "Guts". It's always made me think that theres some kind of strange translation thing going on or that the term "guts" in japanese actually is like, literal for bravery or something. Anyone able to clear this up?
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Feb 24, 2021 04:13
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Char is literally named after Charles Aznavour, yes.
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Feb 24, 2021 04:15
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unknown butthole posted:something that always interested me that I never really got an answer for or understood is that in final fantasy tactics the main characters special abilities are all listed under the command "Guts". It's always made me think that theres some kind of strange translation thing going on or that the term "guts" in japanese actually is like, literal for bravery or something. Anyone able to clear this up? I checked a Japanese wiki and it literally is just ガッツ in Japanese. I haven't played the game for more than 45 minutes in my entire life, but if I had to guess they just didn't want to use something as "plain" as action, even though reaction is another class of ability... As for the broader cultural aspects of guts, if I wanna put my idle speculator's hat on, Japan's long put a premium on the benefits of 根性論 (which I suppose you could even translate as "The school of guts") in a way where the connotations for English terms like grit or perseverance or persist are lacking in comparison. So I'd imagine when you have a foreign word like guts that seemingly embodies those same ideas,, that's nice and punchy, the inclination is to use it all over the place. Fist pumps are called guts poses, popular sport training shout is just "GUTS!", even the skill in Fate Grand Order that lets you revive after being killed is called guts. i mean it just sounds cool "guts" they made a song about it
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Feb 24, 2021 05:07
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Lucasar posted:it is also the name of an obscure village of fewer than 1000 people in Germany  It's a small village, but not quite obscure, since it's situated right at the foot of the Brocken, the paradigmatic haunted mountain and gathering-place of witches in German folklore; in fact, that mountain is where the witches' sabbath on Walpurgis Night is said to be celebrated. A stage direction in the Walpurgis Night scene of Goethe's Faust explicitly mentions that the scene takes place in the vicinity of Schierke.
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Feb 24, 2021 11:13
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Lucasar posted:Bear with me being tedious here, but I got a translation question: It could be worse 
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Feb 24, 2021 17:19
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I always figured that it was the mercenaries that raised him that game Guts his name, given how he was born.
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Feb 25, 2021 00:47
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He never had parents so he never received a proper name. Its a part of his tragedy.
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Feb 25, 2021 01:49
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Carpator Diei posted:
That's a good argument in favor of the name's potential visibility to Miura; it's no stretch to think of Berserk as a graphical great-great-grand-nephew of Faust.
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Feb 25, 2021 03:12
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Carpator Diei posted:
Yeah, Schierke as a name does not sound phony at all for a German speaker. Like sure, you don't know anybody called that, but it's very immediately recognizable as a plausible Germanic name.
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Feb 25, 2021 13:35
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GorfZaplen posted:It could be worse
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Mar 2, 2021 17:26
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Bisse posted:What the gently caress is this poo poo I can't tell you. I'd probably have to break my jaw first
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Mar 2, 2021 21:53
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Bisse posted:What the gently caress is this poo poo looks like someone attended ash wednesday service
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Mar 2, 2021 22:48
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Bisse posted:What the gently caress is this poo poo
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Mar 2, 2021 22:56
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Quaint Quail Quilt posted:Hunter x Hunter, which is on a crazy berserk style hiatus and may have even surpassed it. It wasn't the same after the first big hiatus anyway. No loss, unlike never seeing the end of this would be.
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Mar 2, 2021 23:13
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Bisse posted:What the gently caress is this poo poo Chrollo Lucifer from Hunter x Hunter, or as his official name is romanized Quwrof Wrlccywrlir
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Mar 3, 2021 03:29
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The Notorious ZSB posted:It wasn't the same after the first big hiatus anyway. No loss, unlike never seeing the end of this would be. quote:Quwrof Wrlccywrlir ChrUUUUHHWRF  WHRUUUUWRIURRWL
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Mar 3, 2021 09:55
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GorfZaplen posted:Chrollo Lucifer from Hunter x Hunter, or as his official name is romanized Quwrof Wrlccywrlir I have to imagine Togashi was just trolling when it came to this one. Though there have definitely been some questionable romanizations in Japanese Manga before.
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Mar 3, 2021 18:10
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