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i'm just salty about coal power in particular because i live near an ocean and like to eat from it. it isn't loving nuclear waste that makes it so I can only eat some species a few times a month, it's fossil fuel plants.
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Feb 18, 2021 15:51
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Lmao didn't nvidia get burned badly by the last mining bubble. The hell are they doing this time around, repeating the same mistake?
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Feb 18, 2021 15:58
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Dunno about "burned" exactly; [url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHKDZmithRA&t=1377s gently caress THIS URL PARSER IS GARBAGE stop mutilating my links anyway, that hit piece about Jensen Huang suggested that crypto mining was the whole reason why NVidia's stock went up in 2018, as they hiked the price of cards to squeeze miners, lied about the number of gamers actually buying the cards, and instead of lowering the prices again when the miners had their fill, NVidia chose to not do that.
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Feb 18, 2021 16:04
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Shipon posted:Lmao didn't nvidia get burned badly by the last mining bubble. The hell are they doing this time around, repeating the same mistake? There's a certain Marxist or Keynesian analysis (maybe not even that deep) that points to "the money printer isn't going to turn off within the next 18-24 months, and that means the crypto market is going to be propped up for at least that long, so this is going to be worth it". EDIT: IIRC the thing that got NVidia into legal trouble was claiming that great gaming popularity was what was driving their profits, when it was alleged that they were lying about that because it was really selling to miners.
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Feb 18, 2021 16:06
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Nvidia got "burned" in the sense that they made insane amounts of money and then had to go back to making normal amounts of money.
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Feb 18, 2021 16:07
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I kinda wonder about this to be honest. Like, say crypto demands drop off suddenly and so there's less scalping and bots picking up the cards: what incentive does Nvidia or any of their partners have to actually lower prices again? The demand is likely to stay high, they might as well just take the new prices as normal and make extra money. In theory there's a supply demand thing going on here.. but after a year of higher prices people will just accept it as normal anyway. This is the perfect opportunity for them to just raise prices across the board right?
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Feb 18, 2021 16:09
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And that is exactly what Jensen Huang is accused of doing.
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Feb 18, 2021 16:12
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Elvis_Maximus posted:I kinda wonder about this to be honest. Like, say crypto demands drop off suddenly and so there's less scalping and bots picking up the cards: what incentive does Nvidia or any of their partners have to actually lower prices again? this is exactly correct because this is exactly what happened. Someone with a longer memory can nail it down precisely, but it was either the Pascal generation or the Turing generation where prices were inflated because of miners and then the next generation over still kept prices at that same level.
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Feb 18, 2021 16:12
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First off, prices are going to go up like they're going to go up on everything as long as money printer go brrr. For the same reasons, crypto demand is unlikely to go down all that much any time soon - people don't want USD and they have spare money with nothing to spend it on, and they see the world as a messed up joke and gently caress it may as well gamble on crypto. It will drop off at some point, and reducing crypto demand will reduce the demand for GPUs and thus lower prices a bit, but demand is also going to remain high as long as people are terrified of going out and socializing - what the gently caress ARE they going to do other than play video games and exercise? Maybe 6-9 months from now we'll see prices "normalize" as in you can just go out and buy a 3080 for <$1000, but there are multiple factors at play here and they aren't all going to resolve at the same time even in the most optimistic timeline. Nvidia is setting themselves up to get a bigger piece of the pie, rather than just letting scalpers get it. It's stupid not to - whatever people are going to pay for your product, you may as well be the one getting the money and not a third party. By segregating the market they can optimize their pricing strategies while reducing the brand impact of taking advantage of rising demand.
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Feb 18, 2021 16:16
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gradenko_2000 posted:this is exactly correct because this is exactly what happened. Someone with a longer memory can nail it down precisely, but it was either the Pascal generation or the Turing generation where prices were inflated because of miners and then the next generation over still kept prices at that same level. They took a rise that seemed pretty sharp in the middle of 2017, but the leap in Q4 2018 was the one that got us where we are today. Turing. And yes, it is unquestionably a corporation's job to maximize value, so why not charge whatever the crypto market will bear for the machine that literally creates money?
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Feb 18, 2021 16:35
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Driver level rate limiting on the Geforce variants of cards? Like this isn't going to backfire via driver bugs.
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Feb 18, 2021 17:12
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gradenko_2000 posted:- crypto-mining is probably large enough that firms will attempt to make dedicated drivers to subvert attempts at making gaming GPUs bad at mining at the driver level It's not 2005 and you can't do this poo poo anymore. Microsoft has a signing certificate system on drivers, so those guys who made better Radeon drivers than AMD did for the 9700PRO etc were out of a job when that happened (or the ones that weren't hired by AMD were). Apple does too, which is why "Hackintosh" on Nvidia cards died when Apple refused to sign Nvidia's driver past a certain point. "Well they'll run Linux" you say, are you aware of how nearly the entire Linux community hates Nvidia for giving them no information and leaving nouveau a near useless driver past basic desktop acceleration? Miners would have to surpass nine years of the open source community struggling with the drivers to get anything remotely workable. Craptacular! fucked around with this message at 17:39 on Feb 18, 2021 |
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Feb 18, 2021 17:37
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huh you're right, miners are still sticking with cuda nothing stopping them from just using old drivers for now tho, and amd miners already run on opencl, don't see why they wouldn't switch to noveau+opencl in the future, supposedly it works
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Feb 18, 2021 17:42
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Combat Pretzel posted:Driver level rate limiting on the Geforce variants of cards? Like this isn't going to backfire via driver bugs. I wonder what they're even doing to single out mining, there aren't any obvious instructions/APIs that show up in mining but not in games AFAIK It's not like pro segmentation where they can just throttle FP64 or certain OpenGL calls that only CAD apps use Maybe a heuristic that guesses based on the ratio of integer (more likely to be mining) to floating point (more likely to be gaming) instructions?
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Feb 18, 2021 17:43
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introducing FLOATCOIN, the first 100% floating point cryptocurrency
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Feb 18, 2021 17:46
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I am building a coin you have to find and break in Minecraft, so that people are actually gaming on the cards they buy
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Feb 18, 2021 17:47
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proof of work (in minecraft) vvvv: has to be able to generate cryptographic signatures, which rubber doesn't do silicone, tho 
Truga fucked around with this message at 18:00 on Feb 18, 2021 |
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Feb 18, 2021 17:49
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Really you could make any arbitrary task "mine coins", so why not make a rubber fist that miners have to repeatedly ram into their bodies to generate income?
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Feb 18, 2021 17:58
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Cow Clicker, but with coins. And in 2023, mice are now out of stock everywhere as demand surges for mice with buttons that can be clicked at a steady 135 Hz for months at a time
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Feb 18, 2021 18:02
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It is arbitrary sure but you do need a way to prove you did the task. The math problems are 'hard to solve but easy to verify' so thats why they work. It's incredibly difficult to find the 'secret number' but it's trivial to verify that it's correct.
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Feb 18, 2021 18:10
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ren NiceHash.exe QuackHash.exe
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Feb 18, 2021 18:24
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EoRaptor posted:QuakeHash.exe M-M-M-MULTI MINE
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Feb 18, 2021 18:28
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This crypto guy acquired a 3060 early and managed to get it working on the current driver, and observed mining being throttled even though the driver isn't meant for the 3060 The anti-mining measures might actually be in the firmware rather than the driver https://twitter.com/VideoCardz/status/1362449029964177408
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Feb 18, 2021 18:31
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repiv posted:The anti-mining measures might actually be in the firmware rather than the driver
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Feb 18, 2021 18:40
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repiv posted:This crypto guy acquired a 3060 early and managed to get it working on the current driver, and observed mining being throttled even though the driver isn't meant for the 3060 What do you want to bet that a VBIOS from a 3060 mining card can be flashed on a 3060 gaming card and vice versa.
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Feb 18, 2021 18:44
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Combat Pretzel posted:Firmware level rate limiting on the Geforce variants of cards? Like this isn't going to backfire via VBIOS bugs. Maybe, but the fact that the anti-mining measures only kick in after a minute or so of mining suggests it would be difficult for a game to trigger by accident Even if a game uses a computer shader that by coincidence looks kinda like mining, it would only run for milliseconds at a time between lots of FP code and get averaged out over the course of a minute
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Feb 18, 2021 18:48
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I doubt NVIDIA is taking much risk here. I doubt they are spinning new silicon for this and are instead using the dies that failed testing for ray-tracing/tensor features and can't be sold right now anyways as an RTX card. If this truly is a VBIOS change, I'll be curious to see if they backport that VBIOS back to the other 3000 series cards an re-release them as "v2" cards that won't allow a "v1" VBIOS to be flashed. If new cards ship with the halved Eth mining rate, that might actually change something. Assuming you can't just hack it out somehow anyways.
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Feb 18, 2021 18:53
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change my name posted:I am building a coin you have to find and break in Minecraft, so that people are actually gaming on the cards they buy lol this is great and someone should actually do this.
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Feb 18, 2021 18:56
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I hate bitcoin but it seems pretty loving dumb to not just take GPUs that are good and let people use them for gamming or mining if that is what they want to do. They are taking the time to put firmware on the card that makes it work less good. WHY?
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Feb 18, 2021 18:59
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spunkshui posted:I hate bitcoin but it seems pretty loving dumb to not just take GPUs that are good and let people use them for gamming or mining if that is what they want to do. Is this the first time they've ever done this? Never heard of either company restricting mining in BIOS before.
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Feb 18, 2021 19:00
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spunkshui posted:WHY? If you have perfect market segmentation you can set prices for each at their optimal level without impacting the other segments.
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Feb 18, 2021 19:00
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NVIDIA has the option to squeeze two markets independently now instead of one and they are going to do it to maximize their profits. They get to turn junk dies that failed testing into gold, while earning a PR win from one of their core demographics, gamers. Why wouldn't they do it?
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Feb 18, 2021 19:02
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The Grumbles posted:
Opting to not mine on a profitable rig for various reasons is also a perfectly rational decision! Lets just not pretend spending $10-20/month in electricity to make hundreds of dollars/month (obviously numbers vary depending on card/location, but I believe that's the general ballpark for the lower tier 3000 series cards at least) with your gaming rig when you're not gaming is some stupid, incomprehensible decision. The "you should only buy new cards if hundreds of dollars a month means nothing to you" gatekeeping is also weird as it's alienating a huge portion of gamers that can afford to stretch their budget for their hobby for their once every 3-5 year build, but still aren't so financially secure that hundreds/month isn't noticeable (whether they choose to mine or not). Sure, if you truly need mining income to afford a card, maybe you shouldn't get the card (especially because these mining profits could drop significantly at any time), but I don't actually think that's a large portion of 3000 series owning gamers. The wasting processing power on non-folding@home or similar tasks aspect is also a weird one, as if that's truly a concern you probably shouldn't be taking a break from folding to game, and also should be just as concerned with the millions of people that just idle or turn their computer off when not gaming as well. The power usage/environmental impact is real, and IMO the primary reason to be against mining, but I think for an average American gamer, using a single card to mine during downtime is probably not close to the most energy wasteful lifestyle/money choice they make. Again, still a perfectly reasonable objection to mining / reason not to mine, it just seems like for many, the level of outrage is probably not consistent how they view other (and their own) wasteful choices. There's a big difference between the people/farms buying up cards just to mine and a gamer flipping on mining during down time for a few months while shitcoins are doing dumb things again, and I think some of that difference is being lost. But also, the SA GPU thread during The Great GPU Shortage of 2021 is also probably not the best place to be boasting about your mining gainz. Anyway, Minecraft for Mining is a platform I can get behind.
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Feb 18, 2021 19:04
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spunkshui posted:I hate bitcoin but it seems pretty loving dumb to not just take GPUs that are good and let people use them for gamming or mining if that is what they want to do. Why not? Nvidia PR has taken a nosedive over actual consumers being unable to buy cards to game on, this should theoretically help get more GPUs in the hands of people who actually want to use them. Miners can buy the output-less varieties or spend more on higher end models.
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Feb 18, 2021 19:04
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Huge shoutout to fauxtool for the inspiration Now I can either get $840 a month or game on one while I mine on the other
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Feb 18, 2021 19:14
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I remember a bunch of people in this thread being super confident that driver/firmware level throttling of mining was not possible and how miners would just use compute shaders and  guess it really was as simple as some performance counters in the VBIOS and turning down the memory when it sees mining workloads, whoda thunk
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Feb 18, 2021 19:15
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Friendly bot-on-twitch guy Warlock3D reports that Newegg sent him an email demanding that he stop scanning their store, and they've started to ban some of his proxies. How dare he make it easier for people to shop at their store? Just outrageous.
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Feb 18, 2021 19:15
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Paul MaudDib posted:I remember a bunch of people in this thread being super confident that driver/firmware level throttling of mining was not possible I don't remember that discussion but it seems perfectly doable, GPUs have hardware performance counters that keep track of which units are being utilized for profiling purposes, so those counters could be monitored by the firmware and have it slam on the brakes if the integer units are getting hammered Things like password/hash cracking will get caught in the crossfire but gaming and rendering should be unaffected repiv fucked around with this message at 19:24 on Feb 18, 2021 |
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Feb 18, 2021 19:18
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We got a whole bunch of reports from this thread and I am feeling nice, so I'll just post instead of probating people. If you can have a discussion without slapfights about how cryptocurrencies are relating to the GPU market and GPUs in general, that's fine. I don't think we can avoid that conversation. The two are intrinsically linked. But please, let's try to keep it to the technical aspects and the impact on the market for cards. Please don't make us read your dumb opinions about nuclear power. And honestly, I'm so sick of reading about cryptocurrencies and the dumb libertarian techbros who push them that I'm really considering cracking down on conversations about it outside of dedicated cryptocurrency threads. There are some instances where mining cryptocurrency doesn't make you a garbage person. Fine. Congrats on being a unicorn. But it is absolutely another instance of those with capital internalizing their gains and externalizing their costs while the rest of us deal with repercussions. If you're going to talk about doing it, at least have some loving shame while you do it. And please do it in the dedicated threads for those topics.
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Feb 18, 2021 19:27
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Just let me buy a 3060ti you monsters!!!!
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Feb 18, 2021 19:28
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