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Actually there's been an alternative proposed: if we can't agree with anything with japan, there are two things we could do: 1. Ignore that the meeting ever happened. 2. Meet with the communists in japan instead. Edit: or at least demanding that the head of the japanese communist party be present.
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Feb 18, 2021 01:11
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Asterite34 posted:I mean... DO they? We haven't even made a counter-offer yet! They have been careful not to antagonize the Comintern directly, including easing off on repression of domestic left-wing movements in the post-GRW era. The Japanese left remains fairly strong numerically, but extremely divided. The current government has done a very skilled job of effectively sidelining them, placating moderate socialists with a slew of social and economic reforms and even a few minor unimportant ministerial posts while keeping real power firmly centralized. There is a Comintern-aligned Japanese Communist Party in parliamentary opposition, and infighting between them and the larger Japanese Socialist Party (which is in the governing coalition as a junior partner) is constant and has been a major contributor to the Comintern's relative lack of influence in Japan. The Comintern team meets with them after the initial negotiations have concluded, and they welcome their fraternal socialist allies and express a fervent hope that the Comintern will help them in their struggle to save Japan from the traitors in the Japanese Socialist Party. They urge a hard line in any negotiations. The Japanese Socialist Party also warmly receives the Comintern delegation, and expresses hope that the Comintern will help Japan peacefully integrate the growing community of nations. In any case, the diplomats take the Japanese proposal back to the Comintern promising a timely reply. One unambiguous good here is that formal channels have at last been established, but after days of bitter internal debate no clear consensus is reached, and the offer remains on the table with no official response when the India delegation is dispatched several days later. You will get an opportunity to make a decision on it but since there is really obviously no consensus here we're going to keep things moving and we'll decide on it in an official Congress session. As an out-of-character note, I appreciate the enthusiasm with which people are approaching the game and think the wide range of opinions on display is absolutely a strength we should cultivate and maintain, it'll keep things interesting. That having been said, it's important to me that this remain a welcoming space and that we keep things as chill as possible. So far I don't think it's become a serious problem yet, and what problems there have been are at least partially on me for dropping stuff on the thread and then disappearing for a couple days. I don't think it necessitates any changes in rules or policy or anything right now, but never forget this is a game, and that there are other people behind the monitors. Be cool. Mister Bates fucked around with this message at 01:21 on Feb 18, 2021 |
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Feb 18, 2021 01:15
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I thought we had agreed on the Venus plan along with asking for certain political concessions in return for some light survey craft and economic cooperation. Y'know, with the thing where they provide the TNE's for the ships and colonial stuff as a test of their abilities, and as a way to either expose them and the other Non-Aligned countries to the peaceful socialist reality, or to subtly ruin their economy from trying to shoulder the weight, showing the weakness of capitalism. All the warhawk poo poo notwithstanding, there was actually a decent consensus on a middle ground approach between 'give them everything' and 'give them nothing' that left us with some other options and approaches down the line. I really think people are losing focus here.
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Feb 18, 2021 01:37
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Eh I wouldn't call the Venus plan decisively supported or anything, I'm cautiously into it but it's big enough that it needs a full piece of legislation we can't just cut the deal right then and there.
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Feb 18, 2021 01:40
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Crazycryodude posted:Eh I wouldn't call the Venus plan decisively supported or anything, I'm cautiously into it but it's big enough that it needs a full piece of legislation we can't just cut the deal right then and there. Oh for sure, we need to do an official vote on it, but I'm just saying there's at least some approach in the works.
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Feb 18, 2021 01:44
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Yeah on review it might be better to frame the Venus Plan/new survey craft as a joint Comintern-UN project, assuming we can get India on board (I wouldn't be surprised if they had an eye on the skies as well), just as a way to dilute the influence a single other nation would have in the negotiations, as well as prevent Japan from just balking at the expense of the project if it turns out they're TOTALLY bluffing. And yes, of course this is all contingent on passing a vote in the People's Congress, this is a significant investment. If anyone else has proposals, I invite them to be put to the floor as well. On that note. I have a suggestion, just so we aren't caught flat-footed again by the India summit. We need to go into this with a plan. My suggestion is to openly (among ourselves of course, we keep this close to our chest) list out our individual priorities with these future negotiations, so we're all on the same page. Formatted like, say... quote:Things we absolutely will not concede or offer quote:Things we don't want at all and will consider an insult
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Feb 18, 2021 01:53
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I think demanding independence for ryuku was also down as a counter offer
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Feb 18, 2021 01:56
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Asterite34 posted:On that note. I have a suggestion, just so we aren't caught flat-footed again by the India summit. We need to go into this with a plan. My suggestion is to openly (among ourselves of course, we keep this close to our chest) list out our individual priorities with these future negotiations, so we're all on the same page. Formatted like, say... I mean the India summit has a specific goal, offer to focus a significant part of the socialist aid budget in India in return for basically all their surplus food, which will be distributed as part of the socialist aid program. Also hopefully boosting the local communists in the process.
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Feb 18, 2021 02:04
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Asterite34 posted:Yeah on review it might be better to frame the Venus Plan/new survey craft as a joint Comintern-UN project, We are dissolving the UN. The UN will not be a thing. gently caress the UN all my homies hate the UN We can definitely leave a second option to involve other Non-Aligned countries if Japan balks at the cost however! Be a good way to show the prestige of the Comintern, that we can handle half of the cost while capitalists struggle with the other half.
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Feb 18, 2021 02:06
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zanni posted:We are dissolving the UN. The UN will not be a thing. gently caress the UN all my homies hate the UN I call it the UN for convenience here, I refer to the bloc of remaining Capitalist nations currently members of the Japanese-run UN, namely Japan, India, Pakistan, and whatever in the Arab League that isn't in the Comintern.
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Feb 18, 2021 02:18
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Antilles posted:I mean the India summit has a specific goal, offer to focus a significant part of the socialist aid budget in India in return for basically all their surplus food, which will be distributed as part of the socialist aid program. Also hopefully boosting the local communists in the process. Well yes that's the ideal scenario if all goes as planned. But it might be good to decide what else is on or off the table, hypothetically. e: gently caress doublepost
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Feb 18, 2021 02:23
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Asterite34 posted:I call it the UN for convenience here, I refer to the bloc of remaining Capitalist nations currently members of the Japanese-run UN, namely Japan, India, Pakistan, and whatever in the Arab League that isn't in the Comintern. I've been referring to them as 'Non-Aligned polities' personally. Helps to avoid confusion imo
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Feb 18, 2021 02:24
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sebmojo posted:I think demanding independence for ryuku was also down as a counter offer This isn't gonna happen. The japanese have owned ryuku and hokkaido for 800 years by this point. What we can do, however, that has a chance of being offered and works as a way to aid Japan's oppressed minorities is to ask for a joint-operation Indigenous Reconstruction Authority involving our decolonization bureau. Edit: we can also probably give them back Sakhalin and The Kurils if the USSR and their population is amenable. Those are actually japanese, after all, I think. NewMars fucked around with this message at 02:28 on Feb 18, 2021 |
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Feb 18, 2021 02:25
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Zurai posted:Japan has owned Hokkaido for like 500-600 years at this point (originally settled between 1330 and 1450, Wikipedia isn't clear), and Ryukyu for more than a thousand ("In the early 8th century, the northern end of the island chain was formally incorporated into the Japanese administrative system.") Further, most Ainu do not actually live on Hokkaido. And most that do not live in Hokkaido do not identify as part of the culture because Japan has been repressing them for ages. My mother-in-law can attest to that (OOC as well). In the case of the Ryukyus, its true that the northern islands in spitting distance of Kyushu are dominantly Japanese and should remain as such. But the southern islands which only really came under Japanese hegemony in the Meiji period during which time they tried enforce their culture on the locals under great pain.
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Feb 18, 2021 02:31
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...has anyone asked them what they would like?
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Feb 18, 2021 02:33
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Perhaps the appropriate response to the Japanese offer is a public show of appreciation for their willingness to engage with us in good faith, a private rejection of their offer as "too far, too fast" and a proposal for formal discussion regarding trade and cooperation links, with the intent of constructing an instrument acceptable to both parties. Diplomacy is a long game, comrades, there's no need to rush into things. Let them save face, generate some good will with the public on both sides, and keep the lines of communication open.
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Feb 18, 2021 02:36
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Telsa Cola posted:...has anyone asked them what they would like? I doubt Japan would honestly let them. OOC it wasn't until 1997 that Japan recognized them as an ethnic minority. 2008 that the Japanese government formally recognized them as an indigenous group. I'm not as familiar with the situation of the Ryukuans.
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Feb 18, 2021 02:42
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Rubix Squid posted:I doubt Japan would honestly let them. OOC it wasn't until 1997 that Japan recognized them as an ethnic minority. 2008 that the Japanese government formally recognized them as an indigenous group. I'm not as familiar with the situation of the Ryukuans. I do agree with you that getting a direct and sincere answer is going to be difficult, and furthermore that that is probably a good indicator of how things are for them, but we should at least make an effort to find out before we continue these kind of discussions. And maybe it's the same, could be different due to drastically different geopolitical and internal conditions.
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Feb 18, 2021 02:46
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Totally, but I have a hard time seeing the Japanese being completely honest about it without the comintern forcing them to be.
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Feb 18, 2021 02:48
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Will any potential deal with Japan include provisions on the militarization of space? If we decide to build a space navy in the future, I doubt they’ll accept letting us be the only ones with armed voidcraft. But we also don’t want them to suddenly build such craft and have a leg up on us.
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Feb 18, 2021 03:43
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Pirate Radar posted:Will any potential deal with Japan include provisions on the militarization of space? If we decide to build a space navy in the future, I doubt they’ll accept letting us be the only ones with armed voidcraft. But we also don’t want them to suddenly build such craft and have a leg up on us. I think that's something we need to broach when the time comes, honestly
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Feb 18, 2021 04:24
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zanni posted:I think that's something we need to broach when the time comes, honestly Preferably before an Alien Death Fleet shows up or somesuch.
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Feb 18, 2021 04:35
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zanni posted:I think that's something we need to broach when the time comes, honestly I strongly prefer it to be included in the first round of agreements. If we have no space weapons, they should commit to not building them either. If we want weapons, we can expect them to get them as well. Either way it helps everyone for us to be clear about what we are doing and why. I haven’t been posting with a clear character voice as far as these negotiations go (I think my officer character is still in the Proton somewhere on or around Mars, and wouldn’t be involved in the internal discussions anyway) but speaking fully out of character, any warship in Aurora is a strategic weapon by the standards of the 20th century. Even the basic rail gun ships we’ve talked about can be pointed down and used to delete enemy ground structures, theoretically without any warning. That’s to say nothing of missiles, which are canonically all nuclear warheads.
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Feb 18, 2021 05:13
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Hypnobeard posted:Perhaps the appropriate response to the Japanese offer is a public show of appreciation for their willingness to engage with us in good faith, a private rejection of their offer as "too far, too fast" and a proposal for formal discussion regarding trade and cooperation links, with the intent of constructing an instrument acceptable to both parties. I think this is an excellent reasoned, measured, forward-thinking response. I'm all for it.
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Feb 18, 2021 07:06
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Pirate Radar posted:Will any potential deal with Japan include provisions on the militarization of space? If we decide to build a space navy in the future, I doubt they’ll accept letting us be the only ones with armed voidcraft. But we also don’t want them to suddenly build such craft and have a leg up on us. There was some talk among some internal policy working groups and long-term planning committees (aka the Discord) about setting up a 'Law of Space' to govern basic questions like a duty to aid vessels in distress, ground rules of colonisation and claiming territory, the rights of extraterrestrial colonies to independence and so on. Working title, the Ascension Accords or the Sol Accords. If any such accords were created, then having Japan agree to them would likely be a prerequisite to selling them any spacecraft, and rules concerning the militarisation of space would probably have a place in the accords.
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Feb 18, 2021 09:54
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Asterite34 posted:...they HAVE our schematics. Probably not enough detail to build a working ship, but they wouldn't be starting from zero. Buying some from us would just let them take out the costly guesswork on some of the more esoteric principles. This is a concern to me. It implies that they have penetrated our design and construction programs or have access to information from groups who have. Along with the substantial TNEs they supposedly have, and possible GLADIO links, I believe it would be wise to move cautiously with them and also take steps to both ascertain the degree to which our operational security has been compromised and take steps to not only close those holes but focus our own intelligence apparatus on Japan. To those ends the Trade Unions Congresses of England puts forward the following proposals: Comintern-Japanese Negotiation Strategy Proposal The Comintern will engage in negotiations with Japan contingent on the following: -Codified agreement that all colonies founded under either the auspices of the United Nations or Japan will have the full rights to Self-Determination that the Comintern have codified. With attendant economic penalty clauses up to and including full embargo of all Japanese posessions by Comintern shipping. -Recognition of the indigenous peoples of Hokkaido and the Ryukus, with a path towards decolonisation if the local populations wish it. -Formal recognition and apologies of the war crimes committed by the Imperial Japanese regime and reperations to those living victims of practices such the use of comfort women and forced labour. -The suggestion that the Emperor might recognise the dawning of a new era and abdicate in favour of his son. (We want to push them, but being diplomatic about it means they don't have to outright refuse in order to save face, and in the end this can be used as a bargaining chip to get things we actually care about). -Commitment to retaining and strengthening democratic processes within Japan, with neutral electrion observers. -Agreement from both the UN and Japan to share survey data relating to astrological phenomena and dangers discovered within and without the solar system. -An extension of all treaties regarding ocean travel to space travel, prior to a full international summit to update and modernise said laws and agreements. (In effect all the stuff about the requirement to answer distress signals). -A limit to their military shipyard capacity of 1/3rd the number of Comintern military slipways, and half maximum tonnage, for any shipyards they attempt to build in the future. -A tacit agreement to develop no offensive weaponry for space, and to notify the comintern of any weaponry fitted to their ships. In addition they must agree that any ships bearing weapons must not go dark (i.e. keep their active sensors on, keep their transponders on, so we can always keep track of them.), to which the Comintern will also agree on the basis that if we know where they are we can at least make it harder for them to Pearl Harbour us. In return the Comintern will: -Provide Japan access to build the ships requested, but with a 30% materials fee for the use of the slipways. As Comintern built ships we will require a team of Comintern representatives be posted aboard each ship to ensure they are not used in ways that run counter to Comintern law. I.e. no using the freighters to dump indentured servants on airless rocks and making them work to pay off their passage fee. -Provide limited association membership to the Comintern. Granting Japan a non-voting delegate with access to all public meetings (but nothing more, so the more sensitive stuff in closed council sessions will remain secret.) -Formation of a limited mutual defence treaty against any potential third party aggressor. The aim of this is to see what they will agree to, set minimum standards for self-determination amongst the stars that match our own and limit the chances that this will lead to a new expansionist Japanese state by limiting their initial military capabilities. They'll no doubt circumvent these restrictions, but it will at least give us plenty of notice. And as others have said, unless we're willing to commit to yet more war (and potentially more nuclear devastation) Japan is going to the stars eventually. Better to get them up there on our terms and make it easy to keep an eye on them than just let them do it on their own. Thus I'd say these would be good starting off points for negotiation, to be hardened on, or relaxed based on how those negotiations go. Secondly, in closed council the Trades Union Congresses of England propose: Operation Tokyo Bay Fortress -Copies of the plans the Japanese showed us should be acquired and thorough investigations carried out to identify the source of the leaks. -Additional security measures regarding R&D, Ship Design, and construction should be immediately put in place. -As part of this it is suggested that revisions to the ship designs currently under consideration be made, however multiple different plans for said revisions should be provided to different departments/teams for review. When the Japanese put down the keels on their new ships we will request copies of the plans they have as a means to identify those leaking information and if possible turn them into double agents. -When next practicable one of the Cominterns Geo-survey ships should perform a series of "sensor tests", concentrating on Japan and the ports of the pacific and other neutral states. Ideally this should be done periodically over the course of a month to identify large concentrations of TNEs either awaiting shipment or warehoused in Japan and across the world. If this is done over time this may be able to provide enough data to give an idea if there are additional sources of TNEs flowing into Japan from other states, and especially identify any TNEs being shipped from Comintern member states without their, or our, knowledge. -Intelligence agencies aligned with the Comintern should be directed to attempt far closer examination of Japanese business, government, and military SIGINT and HUMINT. Along with developing new sources of each. -As part of the above, if the Comintern does not yet have an official office of Naval Intelligence it is proposed that this be created and tasked with coordinating with member state intelligence organisations and where possible cultivating our own capabilities. -Our overall aim is to penetrate as much as possible the Japanese government in order to both identify our own security weakpoints, but also to gain forewarning on Japanese intentions and the state of both their TNE supply, industry and R&D. We would also propose that the Japanese Socialist and Communist movements be examined and figures identified who are capable of uniting the disparate factions contained therein. They should then be provided with overt recognition and support from sister parties across the Comintern to provide legitimacy and additional impetus to their efforts to unify the left. If deemed helpful this can even extend to Comintern support, perhaps even much publicised visits to Luna, Ascension Island, or our orbital facilities. In addition however they should be provided with covert administrative, financial and organisational support. Our aim should be to provide the Japanese left with a united front, from which they can ideally win elections and move Japan towards becoming a full Comintern member. But if not to at least provide a strong internal counter to conservative and reactionary forces within Japan to limit the chances of them falling back into bad habits. BwenGun fucked around with this message at 13:41 on Feb 18, 2021 |
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Feb 18, 2021 13:38
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BwenGun posted:This is a concern to me. It implies that they have penetrated our design and construction programs or have access to information from groups who have. Along with the substantial TNEs they supposedly have, and possible GLADIO links, I believe it would be wise to move cautiously with them and also take steps to both ascertain the degree to which our operational security has been compromised and take steps to not only close those holes but focus our own intelligence apparatus on Japan. These all seem fairly reasonable to me as a counter-offer and a general proposal to normalize relations. The Venus Plan can be revised after our talks with India. That said, I've been thinking on this. We still need some way to curb the potential out of control spread of a Capitalist Empire through the Solar System, using suzerain colonies (or "satellite states," to make a pun) to funnel resources to The Few back home. Preferably without being overly hostile about it. To that end, I submit for consideration the Mutual Outer Space Expansion Statement, or MOSES (chosen mostly for the acronym) Acknowledging outer space as the shared heritage and birthright of all Mankind, all parties agree that no single government, polity or organization may lay sole exclusive claim to any celestial body of a size capable of supporting human life unaided (in game terms, needed low-grav infrastructure, Venus would still fall in this category despite being a Death World) based solely upon first colonizing it. Short and simple. My logic is that this will be received at least neutrally, because, well, we have a head-start on all the nearby places, and this way they don't feel locked out, they can get a slice of Moon Pie if they want and not have to schlep it out to Neptune or whatever. The upside of this is, WE don't get locked out either if they start just plopping down hasty garbage habitats wherever they can reach. Wherever they put a colony, WE can put a colony. And our model of encouraging a transition to self-governance with equal voice in the Comintern will seem far more agreeable than being merely a resource-extraction colony. People find more in common with their nearby "enemies" than their distant "superiors," especially in a harsh settler environment fostering independence and cooperation among the Working Man in the face of adversity. I feel that close exposure to the Socialist Way far removed from their Corporate Masters may foster a desire for self-determination among them. And if they should wish to join the Comintern, so much the better. And even if it doesn't, we have the tech, resources and population to completely out-develop them on any world, and what red-blooded plutocrat will admit a bunch of pinkos are better at industrialization than they are? Of course this might cause some friction with perceived encroachment, but I doubt it will escalate to a firing war. The proposed mutual defense pact should help with that, especially after showing them the mass graves we found on Mars to cool their tempers. Our squabbling is the thrashing of big fish in the small pond that is planet Earth, and the Universe is a sea vast beyond our comprehension, full of unknown monsters. Small fish swim in schools for a reason. Asterite34 fucked around with this message at 17:24 on Feb 18, 2021 |
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Feb 18, 2021 15:43
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BwenGun posted:
I feel like what this mainly needs is a commitment from Japan to honour some form of Universal Bill of Rights, just so it doesn't feel like we're legitimizing an inhumane government and hanging their citizens out to dry, but actually holding them to account for how they treat their citizens.
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Feb 18, 2021 15:45
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Asterite34 posted:The upside of this is, WE don't get locked out either if they start just plopping down hasty garbage habitats wherever they can reach. Wherever they put a colony, WE can put a colony. And our model of encouraging a transition to self-governance with equal voice in the Comintern will seem far more agreeable than being merely a resource-extraction colony. People find more in common with their nearby "enemies" than their distant "superiors," especially in a harsh settler environment fostering independence and cooperation among the Working Man in the face of adversity. I feel that close exposure to the Socialist Way far removed from their Corporate Masters may foster a desire for self-determination among them. And if they should wish to join the Comintern, so much the better. And even if it doesn't, we have the tech, resources and population to completely out-develop them on any world, and what red-blooded plutocrat will admit a bunch of pinkos are better at industrialization than they are? We can also check against the rebirth of Japanese imperialism by proactively engaging with the developing world. Japan will need to import labor to any colonies they create; if we've substantially raised living conditions in the developing world and have already set up enrollment pipelines for our glorious socialist colonies, they will be importing this labor form a position of weakness. In the long term, we of course want to incorporate all of those areas into the Comintern, but setting up those sort of development and recruitment deals seems like it would get us closer to integration anyway.
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Feb 18, 2021 18:54
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Asterite34 posted:To that end, I submit for consideration the Mutual Outer Space Expansion Statement, or MOSES (chosen mostly for the acronym) It would certainly go some way to making the Japanese and other neutral powers less nervous about Comintern dominance due to an early start. However my main concern is tactical. As it will make it rather hard to defend Comintern holdings in the event of a hot war if every colony needs a heavy garrison because they share their planet/moon/asteroid with another potentially hostile power. Not to mention that it will provide them with more intelligence regarding our fleet strengths and movements when such things become relevant. My suggestion would be to open Luna for such co-habitation, but allow the powers who settle a world first to stake sole control by means of an agreed upon sum of infrastructure and resources paid to the other powers to make up for the loss. That way we can potentially claim mars, and have it secured in the long term. And if we ever leave the solar system it will allow us to scale the measures up so that we can retain control of entire systems in order to secure a modicum of security for our future colonies. The downside is that the Japanese may be able to do the same. But honestly if they don't immediately they'll likely break the accord anyway if strategic circumstances change enough for them to value space they can call truly call their own and effectively protect. PurpleXVI posted:I feel like what this mainly needs is a commitment from Japan to honour some form of Universal Bill of Rights, just so it doesn't feel like we're legitimizing an inhumane government and hanging their citizens out to dry, but actually holding them to account for how they treat their citizens. Not a bad shout, though they may be a little sceptical of such whilst our members nations include the bastions of Human Rights such as the Soviet Union and People's Republic of China. Though perhaps we should modify things slightly so that access to space, and the colonisation of such, requires certain basic human rights be present. That would then constrain them, and also retroavtively promote better rights within the Comintern's member states as well?
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Feb 18, 2021 22:16
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BwenGun posted:It would certainly go some way to making the Japanese and other neutral powers less nervous about Comintern dominance due to an early start. However my main concern is tactical. As it will make it rather hard to defend Comintern holdings in the event of a hot war if every colony needs a heavy garrison because they share their planet/moon/asteroid with another potentially hostile power. Not to mention that it will provide them with more intelligence regarding our fleet strengths and movements when such things become relevant. You make a fair point regarding tactical vulnerability, and freely admit I am not a military expert. We'd still need expensive anti-air defenses anyway, because if ground assault is off the table they may just resort to orbital bombardment with zero risk of the potential friendly fire that blunted the more nuke-trigger-happy impulses of the GRW. (edit: although even WITH cohabitation, we're talking in terms of planetary scales, so they could just settle the opposite side of a planet and have NEAR-zero likelihood of friendly fire unless they REALLY go nuts with it) I'm also not sure how amenable they'd be to us essentially paying them to not build outposts. It's literally money for nothing, sure, but it's all on our terms, and if their big concern is being cut off from a future in space I'm not sure what price we'd need to pay. I mean, how much would they need to offer US to not settle on Mars, for example? Asterite34 fucked around with this message at 23:09 on Feb 18, 2021 |
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Feb 18, 2021 22:59
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OOC, as a game mechanic ship garrisons or garrison troops are required for population centers over a certain size unless Mister Bates does some Space Magic to deal with this. Protection requirments scale with population size. Ships provide a protection point value (PPV) that is system wide. This value is based on hull spaced devoted to weapons, hanger bays and stuff like that (unless that has changed) Earth/homeworld I think generally ignores the requirements, but anything out of system is going to need something. Failure to meet protection requirments leads to the political reliability (I think that is what is called) status of the population to drop, which impacts the planets production. This can reach 0% and all production will stop because of this. This is all to say that unless it's over ridden through Space Magic, all outsolar planets will need either frequent patrols, a troop garrison, or a resident garrison fleet/station. Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 23:57 on Feb 18, 2021 |
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Feb 18, 2021 23:36
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OOC what actually is the mechanical downside of multiple empires having colonies on the same body? Do we just risk them sucking up the TNEs faster than we can? Or can they actually launch a ground assault directly from their base to ours?
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Feb 18, 2021 23:44
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Asterite34 posted:OOC what actually is the mechanical downside of multiple empires having colonies on the same body? Do we just risk them sucking up the TNEs faster than we can? Or can they actually launch a ground assault directly from their base to ours? Both. Colonies draw from the same mineral pool when on the same body and military units at the same body can attack one another (Im pretty sure, same body colonies get very funky, but thats mostly for same faction colonies). You really really need to keep track of STO (surface to orbit) weaponry build up because its absolutely trivial for one person to completely deny a fleet orbit with STO units, which could last months until they get killed in combat. Since STOs sit in the rear you either have to get lucky with breakthroughs, fight your way through their entire army, or get lucky with mass artillery strikes. I believe ships can bombard STOs individually but STOs are designed to deal with that slugging match and win. Gauss STO and laser STO also makes orbital bombardment by missiles extremely easy to deal with if you get enough set up. Basically STOs are the new nukes. If someone is building it up you are going to have a problem. Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 00:01 on Feb 19, 2021 |
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Feb 18, 2021 23:51
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Telsa Cola posted:You really really need to keep track of STO build up because its absolutely trivial for one person to completely deny a fleet orbit with STO units, which could last months until they get killed in combat. Since STOs sit in the rear you either have to get lucky with breakthroughs, fight your way through their entire army, or get lucky with mass artillery strikes. I believe ships can bombard STOs individually but STOs are designed to deal with that slugging match and win. ...well that certainly explains what happened in Cydonia, now that you put it like that.
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Feb 19, 2021 00:01
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Also given that we can somehow guesstimate how much minerals a body has during scans we could use *shudder* math to get a rough estimate on how much TNEs other earth factions are mining based on how much disappears from our scans of earth on a monthly/yearly basis which is not a result of us directly mining it. That may be too metagamey though.
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Feb 19, 2021 00:05
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Telsa Cola posted:Both. Colonies draw from the same mineral pool when on the same body and military units at the same body can attack one another (Im pretty sure, same body colonies get very funky, but thats mostly for same faction colonies). Yeah, this is one of my big concerns. Say we have a planet designated as a naval base, with fuel, missiles, maintenance facilities etc. vital for the easy operation of a fleet. But another nation sets up a colony on the same planet and prior to war manages to get a large military force with significant surface to orbit weapon platforms. At that point you have no choice to commit to a large ground troop offensive to knock them out. During which time the fleet is effectively screwed for resupply.
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Feb 19, 2021 00:07
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BwenGun posted:Yeah, this is one of my big concerns. Say we have a planet designated as a naval base, with fuel, missiles, maintenance facilities etc. vital for the easy operation of a fleet. But another nation sets up a colony on the same planet and prior to war manages to get a large military force with significant surface to orbit weapon platforms. At that point you have no choice to commit to a large ground troop offensive to knock them out. During which time the fleet is effectively screwed for resupply. Also your troops are hosed for resupply as well, you are going to lose whatever troop ships you send in for resupply unless you have a sacrificial screen, though they might be able to drop their cargo first.
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Feb 19, 2021 00:11
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Yeah, mechanically ground units with surface to orbit weapons are very powerful. They get bonus range compared to ship-based ones. A planet or moon with a decent STO garrison is a tough nut to crack, especially if you care about the world and its population and don't want to shoot tons of nukes down the gravity well. At that point your only option is dedicated dropships rushing in, because normal troop transports will get mauled before they finish unloading. (or blockading them from out of range/ignoring them)
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Feb 19, 2021 00:14
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Okay, so it turns out it is kind of a nightmare to have a hostile colony share a planet with you, as they can turn the place into an unassailable fortress with ease and that kinda fucks you if you need access to it. ...but on the other hand, an anti-capitalist worker's uprising even modestly armed with STO weapons can tie up an entire planet and would require an enormous costly drawn-out unpopular-back-home investment to dislodge. Sounds like a nightmare to, say, a colonialist empire trying to force compliance. 
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Feb 19, 2021 00:33
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