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Career or not any politician that would have voted for the repeal and changed their vote is a bigger rear end in a top hat than Carter. "I'm annoyed we are doing this out of order, so gently caress the poor" and you want us to blame the guy who put it out of order?
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Feb 18, 2021 23:58
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Harold Fjord posted:Career or not any politician that would have voted for the repeal and changed their vote is a bigger rear end in a top hat than Carter. It allows people to believe that if only One Weird Trick (Legislators Hate Him!) was followed Democrats would not have voted in favor of Right to Work legislation, and this is a highly valued coin in some circles.
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Feb 19, 2021 00:02
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axeil posted:
I'd grant that the turnover date is an pretty obvious wall but otherwise I share the same interpretation of the process as vital.
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Feb 19, 2021 00:04
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I get that all this Mean Girls high school drama stuff is important, life-or-death important, to the people involved, and if you just let it slide when that Kady doesn't wear pink on Fridays then next thing you know my authority is in doubt and Regina George does not let some catty bitch make her a laughingstock in front of the whole school when the tenth grade prom queen title is on the line, or whatever. I don't mean to disparage any of that at all. But I definitely get why the general public's reaction to politics ranges from bored to hostile when the answer to "hey can I form a union and get better pay" is "did you see what Kady is wearing today, like ohmygod, if you think I'm going to help her with her little 'Work to Right' thing or whatever, well she has another think coming, can you believe her oh and what she said to Aaron who is my boyfriend by the way but she can't keep her paws off him, and what was that, you're what oh your little union thing that's cool I'm happy for u or that sorry that happened, anyway back to me..." like drat talk about self-owns, I'm sure putting bills out of order is a huge own goal, but so is...this (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 00:09 on Feb 19, 2021 |
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Feb 19, 2021 00:07
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I have no clue what that weird misogynist rant is meant to communicate.
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Feb 19, 2021 00:09
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at some point i have to imagine that many of the posters in this thread have literally never been involved with any organization of any size or capacity
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Feb 19, 2021 00:09
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Harold Fjord posted:Career or not any politician that would have voted for the repeal and changed their vote is a bigger rear end in a top hat than Carter. if it would have passed if he hadn't done that, yeah there was a guy in the Texas Legislature who was exactly like this but was a Republican, he also never got any bills passed even though they probably all agreed with his political positions
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Feb 19, 2021 00:10
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I don't think the general public is even aware enough of the dynamics of local politics to form an opinion on it
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Feb 19, 2021 00:10
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friendbot2000 posted:Okay I am going to do an effort post on how things work in local and state level politics. honestly, yes, this is a good point and it's why you usually don't see political parties on like super local elections like City Council For Town With 3,000 People; it's just VOTE FOR (name) with a big smiling picture of them in a suit over a nice background, after thinking about it for a minute. state and federal level are the big important elections, but the only reason i don't have a fuckoff huge cell phone tower like 500 feet from where i live is because i and my neighbors contacted my local city councilperson
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Feb 19, 2021 00:11
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Discendo Vox posted:I have no clue what that weird misogynist rant is meant to communicate. the legislators are acting like bratty high school kids, and it's not surprising why voters aren't enthused to give them more resources when the answer to "why can't I form a union" is "someone slighted me and I have to slight them back, that's how Richmond works"
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Feb 19, 2021 00:12
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goethe.cx posted:I don't think the general public is even aware enough of the dynamics of local politics to form an opinion on it clearly they are since FB was complaining that every request for more funding from voters was met with gently caress YOU idk if every time I gave everyone in my state a chance to check "gently caress YOU" they did it without fail I'd start to wonder if maybe the problem is me
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Feb 19, 2021 00:14
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VitalSigns posted:the legislators are acting like bratty high school kids, and it's not surprising why voters aren't enthused to give them more resources when the answer to "why can't I form a union" is "someone slighted me and I have to slight them back, that's how Richmond works" personal relationships being key to success isn't unique to politics, its just extra important because the stakes are higher also the key thing here is that repealing RTW isn't some essentially linchpin democratic issue, its just an issue that most representatives don't care about, or have a low level opposition to - which is why they were persuadable votes.
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Feb 19, 2021 00:14
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VitalSigns posted:the legislators are acting like bratty high school kids, and it's not surprising why voters aren't enthused to give them more resources when the answer to "why can't I form a union" is "someone slighted me and I have to slight them back, that's how Richmond works" It's not "slighting", it's "sabotaging the entire legislative calendar and planning process so you can tweet about it".
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Feb 19, 2021 00:15
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theflyingorc posted:at some point i have to imagine that many of the posters in this thread have literally never been involved with any organization of any size or capacity my world of warcraft guilt proves otherwise 
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Feb 19, 2021 00:15
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theflyingorc posted:at some point i have to imagine that many of the posters in this thread have literally never been involved with any organization of any size or capacity I have and part of being an adult is working to accomplish the goals of the organization even if someone at the office makes you mad, getting revenge on them by sabotaging everyone is childish
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Feb 19, 2021 00:15
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VitalSigns posted:clearly they are since FB was complaining that every request for more funding from voters was met with gently caress YOU how do you know that it's a result of voters' knowledge of petty local dynamics rather than a kneejerk reaction of "POLITICIANS BAD"
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Feb 19, 2021 00:16
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Discendo Vox posted:It's not "slighting", it's "sabotaging the entire legislative calendar and planning process so you can tweet about it". I don't see how it's sabotaging the calendar if allegedly the bill was going to be considered anyway, if you have time for 11 things and thing 10 moves up to spot 1 you still have time for 11 things maybe it's childish, but so is loving over every worker in the state over it, the person messing with the calendar might be an rear end in a top hat but the people responding by loving millions of people who had nothing to do with that are patently bigger assholes goethe.cx posted:how do you know that it's a result of voters' knowledge of petty local dynamics rather than a kneejerk reaction of "POLITICIANS BAD" well if it's a kneejerk reaction, the only remedy would be explaining all the details, and here the details are such petty Mean Girls bullshit that the kneejerk "I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING BUT POLITICIANS BAD" response is probably more positive to politicians than the response you'd get if you explained...that. Like if I suspected politicians might be bad, then someone went into detail about how nothing can ever get done because they're all acting like children I'd be like "oh wow they're worse than I thought my god"
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Feb 19, 2021 00:19
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VitalSigns posted:I have and part of being an adult is working to accomplish the goals of the organization even if someone at the office makes you mad, getting revenge on them by sabotaging everyone is childish Have you ever actually been a part of a political organization though? Like even the DSA is done with Lee Carer so it’s funny seeing Goons stumble over themselves to tell people who are actually involved in this poo poo that they are wrong.
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Feb 19, 2021 00:20
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"4 out or 5 wives agree, lee carter is bad for VA" is still an epic burn
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Feb 19, 2021 00:21
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Solaris 2.0 posted:Have you ever actually been a part of a political organization though? I guess but the evidence posted about that was him correctly labeling vicious personal attacks on his divorce as the abuse that they are, and I'm still not sure why evidence of some guy getting bullied and abused is an own on the bullied and not the bully like maybe he did something horrible I don't know about but so far the proof that he's bad is people tweeting clearly awful unacceptable things to him E: Aruan posted:"4 out or 5 wives agree, lee carter is bad for VA" is still an epic burn case in point if he said that to someone else you know the people celebrating the epic burn would be making GBS threads bricks over online bullying and toxic discourse VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 00:27 on Feb 19, 2021 |
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Feb 19, 2021 00:24
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Harold Fjord posted:Career or not any politician that would have voted for the repeal and changed their vote is a bigger rear end in a top hat than Carter. To be frank i'm not so sure convincing voters of the systemic issues of the Virginian legislature is such an impossible task. You've got 10.5 months to do other things...not everyone may be luckily enough to find the time and skill to do PR and explain all this to people but doesn't mean that person doesn't exist. Like it's not an guarantee you can reach people about this but this tactic only seems as risky as any political move. goethe.cx posted:how do you know that it's a result of voters' knowledge of petty local dynamics rather than a kneejerk reaction of "POLITICIANS BAD" I don't think Vital is necessarily arguing that people know just that this is just another reason poo poo doesn't get done.
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Feb 19, 2021 00:25
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VitalSigns posted:I don't see how it's sabotaging the calendar if allegedly the bill was going to be considered anyway, if you have time for 11 things and thing 10 moves up to spot 1 you still have time for 11 things Because it throws off all schedule planning for deliberation and negotiation on all of the other items. The other bills also matter, and all of the legislators planned their reading and discussion in an incredibly small time window around the order. Carter could have at least had an opportunity to get the loving thing passed by negotiating with his vote on the other things before it in the calendar. It was an openly and deliberately destructive move that only makes sense if he cares more about a know-nothing narrative of performative persecution than actually changing the law. The only people who think it's defensible are the people who desire the unaccountable anger of willful powerlessness over actually improving things.
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Feb 19, 2021 00:26
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Am I crazy or isn't repealing right to work something that is specifically in the VA dems platform? and yet when push came to shove only 13 of 55 VA house Dems voted to end right work? Lee's bill wasn't getting out of committee if he didn't pull this stunt. It would have died just like it has the past two years. Just like his bill giving teachers the right to strike died in committee because it is not something the majority of Virginia Democratic politicians support and they prefer not looking bad by voting against it. I am wondering why a state controlled by a Democratic house and a Democratic Senate with a Democratic governor cannot pass a repeal of right to work which is something their own party's central committee unanimously supported. The answer is that the majority of Virginia Democratic politicians don't really care about repealing right to work. This vote put them on the record and they now have to be held accountable for their vote.
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Feb 19, 2021 00:26
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VitalSigns posted:I guess but the evidence posted about that was him correctly labeling vicious personal attacks on his divorce as the abuse that they are, and I'm still not sure why evidence of some guy getting bullied and abused is an own on the bullied and not the bully i don't really care about him being mean on twitter to people because being mean to twitter is inherently bad - hes a toxic shithead, he should own it, whatever - its that its specifically counterproductive to him achieving his legislative goals because it makes people hate him when he openly dogs his coworkers.
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Feb 19, 2021 00:29
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VitalSigns posted:I guess but the evidence posted about that was him correctly labeling vicious personal attacks on his divorce as the abuse that they are, and I'm still not sure why evidence of some guy getting bullied and abused is an own on the bullied and on the bully Axeil was an fool for listing that but he also Lee's dispute of NOVADSA. Doesn't make dunking someone for the crime of divorce any less petty mind.
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Feb 19, 2021 00:29
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Discendo Vox posted:Because it throws off all schedule planning for deliberation and negotiation on all of the other items. The other bills also matter, and all of the legislators planned their reading and discussion in an incredibly small time window around the order. Carter could have at least had an opportunity to get the loving thing passed by negotiating with his vote on the other things before it in the calendar. I'm not saying it's defensible, merely that the response seems wildly disproportionate to the uhhh for the sake of argument I'll say "offense". like okay people who planned to show up to debate thing 3 at 3:00 now have to wait because everything is delayed, not cool, people have dentist appointments I get it, there's other legislative priorities I get that too, but like maybe the welfare of millions of working people in Virginia should also be a priority idk. Is there no tool in the toolbox besides "let it slide" and "gently caress millions of people", like they can't go "ok you suck dude next session your stuff is last and also we're giving you the lovely parking spot now"
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Feb 19, 2021 00:30
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VitalSigns posted:I have and part of being an adult is working to accomplish the goals of the organization even if someone at the office makes you mad, getting revenge on them by sabotaging everyone is childish People are petty fuckers in all kinds of contexts. Academia, commercial sector, public sector, you name it. Successful politicians, i.e. those who actually get poo poo done, know this, and try very hard to build coalitions while avoiding stepping on people's toes. This whole affair was purely, 100% Lee's fault. Full stop. Trying to spread the blame is dumb.
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Feb 19, 2021 00:30
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It has more to do with the fact that changing the way the VA legislature works requires constitutional amendments and you only get 2 per legislative session(according to the VA Constitution) and ho boy do they take up a LOT of time that can be spent on other bills, require a ton of resources that state parties...don't really have because amendments have to be voted on twice: Once by the legislature and then it goes to a ballot initiative for all voters. And well....voters cannot be trusted to understand ballot initiatives so it is really risky for something as mind-numbingly boring as "Change how the inner workings of the VA Legislature operate). You could do repeal the barrier for 2 amendments sure, but then you only get one because the repeal counts! Like it was floated that we repeal the 2 Amendment cap this year, but the caucus decided to repeal the gay marriage ban in our state constitution and enshrine the right to equitable education were more pressing. Like, there is a LOT of poo poo that is super broke in Virginia and we are really only 2 years or in reality 75 days into fixing things. That is the scope of the progress that has been made. I love my state, but boy is it loving stupid sometimes. friendbot2000 fucked around with this message at 00:39 on Feb 19, 2021 |
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Feb 19, 2021 00:33
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Thorn Wishes Talon posted:People are petty fuckers in all kinds of contexts. Academia, commercial sector, public sector, you name it. Successful politicians, i.e. those who actually get poo poo done, know this, and try very hard to build coalitions while avoiding stepping on people's toes. Nah takes two to tango. Yes, it's important to not step on people's toes. If you do, and they spitefully gently caress everyone over to get back on you, that's partly on you for being dumb but also on them for being a petty fucker. Clearly this is a two-way street, successful people are also able to deal with having their toes stepped on in a mature way, successful people don't generally go apeshit and sabotage everyone around them because someone slighted them. If someone moved the death penalty bill on the calendar and Lee voted against it out of spite, I would say that's partly his fault, I would not be like "well hey someone annoyed him so gently caress the sanctity of life I guess"
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Feb 19, 2021 00:34
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RTW is not the only issue that matters. You are sealioning every loving aspect of the state legislative process to a succession of state activists.
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Feb 19, 2021 00:36
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friendbot2000 posted:It has more to do with the fact that changing the way the VA legislature works requires constitutional amendments and you only get 2 per legislative session(according to the VA Constitution) and ho boy do they take up a LOT of time that can be spent on other bills, require a ton of resources that state parties...don't really have because amendments have to be voted on twice: Once by the legislature and then it goes to a ballot initiative for all voters. And well....voters cannot be trusted to understand ballot initiatives so it is really risky for something as mind-numbingly boring as "Change how the inner workings of the VA Legislature operate). You could do repeal the barrier for 2 amendments sure, but then you only get one because the repeal counts! yeahhhh ok so maybe they can't reintroduce the bill without changing the constitution (seems dumb, actually I know that's not true because special sessions are a thing but anyway)...but I don't see why they couldn't pass the bill anyway and then punish only Lee for his unseemly maneuver rather than taking out their anger on millions of people
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Feb 19, 2021 00:39
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Discendo Vox posted:RTW is not the only issue that matters. True but irrelevant, repealing or not repealing RTW has no bearing on whether those other issues pass
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Feb 19, 2021 00:40
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Discendo Vox posted:RTW is not the only issue that matters. You are sealioning every loving aspect of the state legislative process to a succession of state activists. It's not sealioning to disagree with people in the thread jesus loving christ. It's not the only issue that matters but I've only seen various goons' word that it wasn't gonna be blocked yet again and they are all on the same side of this. Looks like maybe that was the only way to get these rear end in a top hat Dems on record as being assholes who don't care about RTW Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 00:44 on Feb 19, 2021 |
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Feb 19, 2021 00:41
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friendbot2000 posted:It has more to do with the fact that changing the way the VA legislature works requires constitutional amendments and you only get 2 per legislative session(according to the VA Constitution) and ho boy do they take up a LOT of time that can be spent on other bills, require a ton of resources that state parties...don't really have because amendments have to be voted on twice: Once by the legislature and then it goes to a ballot initiative for all voters. And well....voters cannot be trusted to understand ballot initiatives so it is really risky for something as mind-numbingly boring as "Change how the inner workings of the VA Legislature operate). You could do repeal the barrier for 2 amendments sure, but then you only get one because the repeal counts! Sure but this seems like a big obstacle to doing all that no? Discendo Vox posted:RTW is not the only issue that matters. You are sealioning every loving aspect of the state legislative process to a succession of state activists. Scheduling if it's all going to get done anyways while certainly an big enough issue to call someone an rear end in a top hat over it is not the kind of issue to throw perfectly good law under the bus. Rockit fucked around with this message at 00:44 on Feb 19, 2021 |
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Feb 19, 2021 00:41
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VitalSigns posted:True but irrelevant, repealing or not repealing RTW has no bearing on whether those other issues pass eh when they have to cram 700 bills into 30 days of schedule it kind of does
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Feb 19, 2021 00:42
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Discendo Vox posted:RTW is not the only issue that matters. You are sealioning every loving aspect of the state legislative process to a succession of state activists. For example, Virginia legislators have established they consider it a less important issue than literally everything else on their legislative calendar. Reasons given for this have included an epic divorce burn on twitter and one man being very angry at podcasts.
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Feb 19, 2021 00:47
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VitalSigns posted:True but irrelevant, repealing or not repealing RTW has no bearing on whether those other issues pass Carter taking a giant poo poo on the entire legislative schedule in order to attract attention to himself from people deliberately ignorant of the legislative process does have a bearing on whether those other issues pass. This has been explained at least three times. Take a hint- the DSA, the unions, his own party, and every VA activist on the forums is telling you you are wrong about this. You are beginning from the position of reflexively defending Carter and doing so in opposition to and in ignorance of every aspect of the situation. Others are having to explain the legislative process to you and you are just learning about it now. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 00:52 on Feb 19, 2021 |
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Feb 19, 2021 00:48
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Discendo Vox posted:This has been explained at least three times. It's certainly been asserted. If they all voted to pass it what bill was going to get left out in the cold?
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Feb 19, 2021 00:52
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OJ MIST 2 THE DICK posted:eh when they have to cram 700 bills into 30 days of schedule it kind of does that might justify not messing with the schedule in the first place, but surely it doesn't justify loving over millions of working people if someone does change the schedule. How does that unchange the schedule. And hey my state has a part time legislature with poo poo pay and they only meet every other year or some dumb poo poo so I get the schedule crunch, but you know what happened when everything didn't pass in time once, and an abortion ban got left until the last day and killed with a Dem filibuster because someone hosed up? The Republicans called a special session and passed it anyway, they didn't go "ohhhhhh well nothing we can do it was all Dewhurst's fault, better luck next time dee-de-dee" because they actually care about doing (evil) poo poo, not just pretending they want to do things then coming up with excuses not to do it.
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Feb 19, 2021 00:52
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VitalSigns posted:Nah takes two to tango. Is it really, honestly confusing that people will spitefully gently caress over someone who cuts in line? it's absolutely never worth anyone's time to get in an argument or confrontation with a line cutter, but people do anyway and it serves a purpose. If line cutters are not punished then the line collapses into a mob, which in the worst cases can stampede or trample people. In the context of this time-cramped legislature that means shouting arguments as everyone tries to be first that prevent the business of the committee from being accomplished.
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