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Lt. Danger posted:hah! and they call Snyder cynical! You’re broadening your definition of violence way beyond the scope of this conversation, here. Unnecessarily, it seems to me, since your main thesis seems to be “Violence isn’t good or bad, it is a tool and only the use to which it’s put gives it moral weight”. Which I don’t think anyone is disagreeing with?
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Feb 19, 2021 18:33
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Again, I think I just disagree with your definitions. I've think you've spread the concept of violence so thin that it covers any sort of disruption and I don't think that's correct. I also disagree with the idea that heroism is by definition violence. Feeding someone who is hungry is heroic, caring for someone who is unable to look after themselves is heroic, yet there's no violence there. You could argue feeding the hungry is disruptive, if a capitalist society suggests they should suffer, but the disruption in feeding them is not violence, and framing it as such dilutes the word "violence" into meaninglessness. I also reject the idea that the only thing that makes violence immoral or moral is the ends to which it is put. I think that's a very flawed philosophy that inadvertently lead to justifying awful violence just so long as the end goal is sound. The ends don't always justify the means, and certainly don't define the morality of the act. Torturing someone is evil and wrong, even if you're torturing someone for the "right reasons". Also Fleming almost certainly did decide to make Bond a cold, calculated killer in order to flesh out his character. They were purposeful narrative decisions meant to explore who he is. James Bond doesn't just kill because he's a loyal servant of the British Empire (though that has it's part), it's also because of who he is as a person which is communicated by the decisions he makes. Consider that in multiple stories Bond has killed people who his bosses have wanted alive out of the sheer desire to kill them. That tells us there's something about who Bond is, more than just his job, that makes him a killer. Again, it's a definition thing, I just don't think I subscribe to your philosophy of what characters are. Characters are not just defined by their job and end goals, they're also defined by their decisions and behaviour, and I fundamentally disagree that those decisions are irrelevant.
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Feb 19, 2021 18:33
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FlamingLiberal posted:It’s the newer canon that overwrote the old one thanks to time travel or something. Being even semi-invested in a fighting game's story has been unique, but not unwelcome.
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Feb 19, 2021 18:33
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I've always been a Street Fighter guy (fatalities where, say, Johnny Cage tears his screaming daughter in half while mugging for the camera, are just viscerally upsetting and offputting to me) but that MK movie looks like a lot of fun. As for "why any violence at all in superhero movies," there's been a lot of good input on it so far. I wanted to add that some of it is ontological to the genre and history of the medium. The superhero film comes from the superhero comic, and the superhero comic has its roots in professional wrestling. The larger than life characters in leotards, physically grappling with each other to perform metaphors of ideological tension and conflict to broad audiences, that was the established narrative and visual shorthand that cape comics grew from. In wrestling, you'd have a relatable hometown hero winning against some other wrestler who represented the greedy rich guy, or the scary foreigner, or some other group that the audience saw as threatening. The physical conflict was the narrative metaphor for the struggle between those groups, and the physical victory provided the catharsis for that social tension. Supers use nearly identical grammar, with people donning costumes to become analogous representatives of various values, political ideologies, aspirations, what have you, and then the battling similarly posed villains. They punched each other and shot energy beams because it's easier to use four color printing to make that look cool to a child than, like, people sitting down and having long and discursive philosophical debates over the merits of risky freedom versus stifling order or whatever. For decades, comics were a medium that was, more often than not, an incoherent continuity of outlandish events that existed first and foremost to get children to give you their nickle. Only much later did people really try to consistently and earnestly tell stories there with an eye towards treating the medium as literary, and it's from that literary trend that superhero movies primarily pull their stories, tone, characterizations, and so on. Superhero movies almost definitionally include physical conflict because that's what the visual and narrative grammar was from very first principles. It's an easy way to analogize ideological conflict. You name a guy Protector and put a shield on his chest and he goes and punches a guy named Lord Hatred who is dressed like a skeleton and you feel good because a whole poo poo ton of complex negotiations about power and security and mortality and morality and whatnot have all been subconsciously massaged while you were entertained by the visual spectacle of acrobatic fighting and magic powers. You almost certainly can have a movie where a superhero reaches the finale without ever doing any violence, but I don't know if it would be a "superhero movie" anymore. Is Green Mile a superhero movie? Or Powder, or Phenomenon, or KPAX? Is E.T. a superhero? At some point, everything becomes soup if you try to stretch its boundaries beyond what it can sustain as a genre. A genre is a set of assumptions, expectations, and tropes that act as an imprecise container for a narrative. It can be grown, explored, subverted, etc, but at some point you can alter things enough that people no longer feel satisfied by the story, because it advertised itself as one genre but then didn't perform any of the roles that the genre is useful for. Edit: there are comics that have explored all of this really well, like even Watchmen had Comedian tell Ozymandias that "the world has problems, but only an idiot thinks they'll be solved by you punching a guy." I think Watchmen is a more interesting exploration of the limits of violent heroism than Snyder's nihilistic libertarian interpretations. SlimGoodbody fucked around with this message at 18:53 on Feb 19, 2021 |
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Feb 19, 2021 18:48
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The Mortal Kombat trailer didn't show a lot of visual promise. Seemed kinda stilted and unimaginative. Hope that isn't extended to the movie as a whole.
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Feb 19, 2021 18:51
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Sentinel Red posted:Tsk, don't forget the best part of MK 11: Oh yes! It's loving nuts that the DLC had 2.5 hours more of story. So good. E: Also that Cary-Hiroyuki Tagawa came back from MK1 and chewed up every scene he was in. 
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Feb 19, 2021 18:58
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Phylodox posted:your main thesis seems to be “Violence isn’t good or bad, it is a tool and only the use to which it’s put gives it moral weight” more than that - it is also ever-present and necessary. "inevitable" is perhaps a better word Karloff posted:I also disagree with the idea that heroism is by definition violence. Feeding someone who is hungry is heroic, caring for someone who is unable to look after themselves is heroic, yet there's no violence there. You could argue feeding the hungry is disruptive, if a capitalist society suggests they should suffer, but the disruption in feeding them is not violence, and framing it as such dilutes the word "violence" into meaninglessness. I don't think those actions are heroic, though I am thinking of hero specifically in the literary/mythic sense rather than simply "a good person". in the example of [a story about] someone feeding the hungry in opposition to society (people liberating waste food from supermarkets that refuse to give it away, for example) I would suggest the action is heroic and violent: not in the physical feeding of mouths, but in the act of opposition - the violence being the implicit question "why do we require people to go hungry when there is food enough to feed them?" and its obvious response... and possible future demands I understand if you disagree with my premises/definitions, that's fair enough - to be honest my hope was less to convince you than to provide an explanation for why someone might value violence in stories that wasn't "I like seeing people hurt", "I think violence is edgier and cooler" or "I didn't think about it, it's just what the director wants". and, well, I do think it is worth thinking why we do have violence in stories and if the way we treat it is appropriate or adds meaning. I especially think "violence is for indulging audience catharsis" might be worth a further look quote:Also Fleming almost certainly did decide to make Bond a cold, calculated killer in order to flesh out his character. They were purposeful narrative decisions meant to explore who he is. James Bond doesn't just kill because he's a loyal servant of the British Empire (though that has it's part), it's also because of who he is as a person which is communicated by the decisions he makes. Consider that in multiple stories Bond has killed people who his bosses have wanted alive out of the sheer desire to kill them. That tells us there's something about who Bond is, more than just his job, that makes him a killer. Again, it's a definition thing, I just don't think I subscribe to your philosophy of what characters are. Characters are not just defined by their job and end goals, they're also defined by their decisions and behaviour, and I fundamentally disagree that those decisions are irrelevant. apologies, I think I've been unclear - my view is that you create character definition where you look for it. any rule on killing - yes, no, self-defence, only when Superman's mother is being held hostage, whatever - provides character definition if you ascribe meaning to it. it's not the rule that provides definition, and the absence of a rule, any rule, doesn't make that character less defined. Indiana Jones doesn't have a rule, he doesn't talk about his rule or has his rule tested by circumstances... he just fights Nazis, and sometimes kills them, and we still know who he is and what he's about. Dora the Explorer doesn't have a rule as far as I'm aware, though if she did we could easily guess what it would be, but its presence wouldn't add more to the character unless we chose to make it so it's like clothes. clothes can say a lot about a character - but characters don't wear clothes to convey a message, and we don't put clothes on them to make them more well-rounded and defined characters
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Feb 19, 2021 19:18
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Lt. Danger posted:more than that - it is also ever-present and necessary. "inevitable" is perhaps a better word Again, you're broadening your definitions beyond the possible scope of this conversation. The idea of violence you're using here is basically agitating for change. Which is just, like, conflict. A fundamental building block of storytelling altogether, and not particularly germane to specifically superhero or action movies. You asked why we feel like we have to create stories where a hero gotta do a punch. The simplest answer is because, as I and someone else extrapolated on, it's the simplest, most viscerally satisfying, and versatile form of conflict. It can be used as metaphor, spectacle, and moral lesson. There is no inherent morality to a punch, it's about what questions the story is asking in regards to the punch, and what answers it puts forward. Which is what you seem to be saying. And no one really seems to be arguing against?
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Feb 19, 2021 19:27
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I'll also note that in a lot of superhero movies, there is punching but punching is definitively *not* the solution to the problem. Think Spiderman 2 or Captain America: Winter Soldier. I tend to think those are the best superhero movies.
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Feb 19, 2021 19:29
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Bond is modeled after some dude fleming knew in the OSS and the poo poo the OSS got up to.
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Feb 19, 2021 19:32
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Lt. Danger posted:
i disagree with pretty much everything even down the base conceptual level of your idea of violence but i just want to say as a queer person the idea that clothes don't convey a message is by far the funniest poo poo i've read recently so ty for this
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Feb 19, 2021 19:35
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Mr Hootington posted:Bond is modeled after some dude fleming knew in the OSS and the poo poo the OSS got up to. He claimed for years that a lot of it was inspired by poo poo he himself did. He was the Dick Marcinko of his time.
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Feb 19, 2021 19:36
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Vintersorg posted:Oh yes! It's loving nuts that the DLC had 2.5 hours more of story. So good. They also eventually put out a DLC pack that was skins and voices for original movie versions of characters with the actors reprising their parts. So you can totally play as Christopher Lambert Raiden.
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Feb 19, 2021 19:37
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muscles like this! posted:They also eventually put out a DLC pack that was skins and voices for original movie versions of characters with the actors reprising their parts. So you can totally play as Christopher Lambert Raiden. lol that's awesome
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Feb 19, 2021 19:38
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WB should have split the difference and let Snyder do MK, that's something his style and personality would actually work for
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Feb 19, 2021 19:41
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site posted:lol that's awesome They also got Keith David to play Spawn again. Retro Futurist posted:WB should have split the difference and let Snyder do MK, that's something his style and personality would actually work for I might be able to get behind this.
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Feb 19, 2021 19:43
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Phylodox posted:Again, you're broadening your definitions beyond the possible scope of this conversation. The idea of violence you're using here is basically agitating for change. Which is just, like, conflict. A fundamental building block of storytelling altogether, and not particularly germane to specifically superhero or action movies. no, it's the idea of violence as revelation. consider again the character of Inspector Goole, who tears apart the Birling family despite not being an inspector or, indeed, real site posted:i disagree with pretty much everything even down the base conceptual level of your idea of violence but i just want to say as a queer person the idea that clothes don't convey a message is by far the funniest poo poo i've read recently so ty for this I said that they do? characters wear clothes because they are clothes, as opposed to being nude
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Feb 19, 2021 19:44
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muscles like this! posted:They also eventually put out a DLC pack that was skins and voices for original movie versions of characters with the actors reprising their parts. So you can totally play as Christopher Lambert Raiden. Movie Sonya lets you replace awful human Ronda Rousey so I got it for that alone. Also even if she wasn't awful Rousey is a terrible (voice) actress and a strong argument against stunt casting.
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Feb 19, 2021 19:45
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Lt. Danger posted:I said that they do? characters wear clothes because they are clothes, as opposed to being nude :wha: Retro Futurist posted:WB should have split the difference and let Snyder do MK, that's something his style and personality would actually work for not very familiar with mk lore, which two characters have mothers named Martha
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Feb 19, 2021 19:46
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MacheteZombie posted:Lol I'm actually interested in watching these cinematics now MK11 + Aftermath, as a movie, is... actually pretty drat fun? Maybe aftermath because of how Shang Tsung centric it is but the animation and character models are great and the story is insane.
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Feb 19, 2021 19:47
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do the mk games have like a set story now i can watch on youtube, or do i have to watch cinematics for every character and have to intuit what the "canon" story is
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Feb 19, 2021 19:48
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site posted:do the mk games have like a set story now i can watch on youtube, or do i have to watch cinematics for every character and have to intuit what the "canon" story is The campaign mode is a set, linear story. My main complaint about the last mortal kombat game is basically that it was a pretty good movie continually interrupted by poorly paced video game battles. (also the fact that you can't do fatalities in campaign mode because it would violate the causality of the story; let me break the fourth wall, you cowards!) Old Kentucky Shark fucked around with this message at 19:54 on Feb 19, 2021 |
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Feb 19, 2021 19:50
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MK9-10 basically take the story from 1-4ish and redo a bunch of the major plot points, with 11 being a major divergence. And it's fun as all gently caress. I used to just watch the story mode compilations when the games came out for fun. MacheteZombie posted:Lol I'm actually interested in watching these cinematics now The fact they actually develop the Aztec Shao Kahn ripoff and give him motivations and relationships that make sense is kind of wild to me. I will warn you that MK9 character models for the women are.... well they get massively improved upon later in the series.
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Feb 19, 2021 19:53
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Old Kentucky Shark posted:The campaign mode is a set, linear story. is this everything to date? Sentinel Red posted:Tsk, don't forget the best part of MK 11: e: err, plus the stuff that's replying to
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Feb 19, 2021 19:54
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FilthyImp posted:I will warn you that MK9 character models for the women are.... well they get massively improved upon later in the series. Oh, lord yes. Mileena is comparatively covered up now and Sonya no longer has tactical hot pants.
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Feb 19, 2021 19:57
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site posted:is this everything to date? Yeah that looks like it covers everything in the last few games which is all you need.
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Feb 19, 2021 19:57
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It seems like 10 hours of content, so 1 tv season.. thats bingeable site posted:is this everything to date? Yeah I'd like to know this too
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Feb 19, 2021 19:58
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Injustice (and Injustice 2) also have similar hours long set story campaigns that are a good watch if you like what they did with MK.
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Feb 19, 2021 20:01
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didn't expect my weekend plans to be watching mortal kombat cinematics but ya know what, gently caress it, let's do it
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Feb 19, 2021 20:01
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Happy Noodle Boy posted:Injustice (and Injustice 2) also have similar hours long set story campaigns that are a good watch if you like what they did with MK. I thought injustice 1 was alright. Haven't checked out 2
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Feb 19, 2021 20:03
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The Flash movie found its Supergirl?? I didn't even realize Supergirl was going to be in the Flash movie.
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Feb 19, 2021 20:06
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Just a warning for anyone watching the MK stuff, as alluded to earlier in MK11 they brought in noted awful person Ronda Rousey to play Sonya.
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Feb 19, 2021 20:08
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Vince MechMahon posted:He claimed for years that a lot of it was inspired by poo poo he himself did. He was the Dick Marcinko of his time. I think he just embellished poo poo and the ouline of some of it is very plausible. A bunch ofbspy thriller writers from his time were OSS or cia.
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Feb 19, 2021 20:11
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Lt. Danger posted:no, it's the idea of violence as revelation. consider again the character of Inspector Goole, who tears apart the Birling family despite not being an inspector or, indeed, real Then bring it back around to the point of the conversation, which is physical violence in action and superhero movies. As it is, you've taken the conversation so far into the philosophical weeds that it really has only the most tenuous connection to what was being discussed here. Happy Noodle Boy posted:Injustice (and Injustice 2) also have similar hours long set story campaigns that are a good watch if you like what they did with MK. The most impressive thing for me about Injustice 2 was that face/motion capture technology has progressed to the point where video games can look realistically cheap, now. Like, instead of looking like bad CG, the characters kind of look like bad soap opera/porno actors.
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Feb 19, 2021 20:15
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muscles like this! posted:Just a warning for anyone watching the MK stuff, as alluded to earlier in MK11 they brought in noted awful person Ronda Rousey to play Sonya. Her delivery is almost 90s bad but without the lo-fi charm of "grabbed an intern and recorded in a closet"
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Feb 19, 2021 20:19
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Phylodox posted:Then bring it back around to the point of the conversation, which is physical violence in action and superhero movies. As it is, you've taken the conversation so far into the philosophical weeds that it really has only the most tenuous connection to what was being discussed here. as the person who asked the original question, I may have a better handle on what the scope was my view is that physical violence is not morally distinct from any other kind of violence, and violence is inherent to the concept of a hero. this applies to the books, plays and poems of thousands of years of human culture; comic books and comic books movies did not invent heroes. this is also I think why "audience catharsis" is insufficient explanation (and, honestly, a little messed up!)
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Feb 19, 2021 20:34
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Lt. Danger posted:as the person who asked the original question, I may have a better handle on what the scope was Your question is part of an ongoing conversation in the thread, man. And, again, nobody's arguing about what you seem to be saying. You just kind of keep saying the same thing over and over and seem to want to engage with increasingly more abstracted ideas of "violence" when it really doesn't serve any purpose. Violence is a form of conflict, yeah, we get that. And accusing people of being messed up for stating really pretty tame opinions is kind of lovely and not conducive to civilized conversation.
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Feb 19, 2021 20:40
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FilthyImp posted:God yes. I was so hoping they'd patch out her voice somewhere along the line. You have to wonder what they were thinking because its not like they needed the stunt cast boost and she's never been good in anything.
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Feb 19, 2021 20:41
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muscles like this! posted:You have to wonder what they were thinking because its not like they needed the stunt cast boost and she's never been good in anything. It was a fan casting thing that came up a ton and someone on the team must have liked.
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Feb 19, 2021 20:46
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Phylodox posted:Your question is part of an ongoing conversation in the thread, man. And, again, nobody's arguing about what you seem to be saying. You just kind of keep saying the same thing over and over and seem to want to engage with increasingly more abstracted ideas of "violence" when it really doesn't serve any purpose. Violence is a form of conflict, yeah, we get that. And accusing people of being messed up for stating really pretty tame opinions is kind of lovely and not conducive to civilized conversation. I believe they are being somewhat snarky, because they immediately got called a weirdo by BrianWilly for saying they don't mind that Batman kills people.
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