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Are Virginia Democrats in a position to throw away unions so easily? Is union membership that low in VA? Even MO was able to repeal RTW. I'm surprised VA dems are so willing to tell unions "support us and we'll pass your bill, not like last time when Lee was mean to us or the time before when we thought we might have to pay workers more."axeil posted:For the people still trying to argue Lee is innocent in all this:
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Feb 19, 2021 18:22
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axeil posted:For the people still trying to argue Lee is innocent in all this: For the people still trying to argue that the Democrats that voted against repealing right to work when why do you vote against & kill something you ostensibly support and co-sponsor just because you weren't informed of a parliamentary procedure being used ahead of time?
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Feb 19, 2021 18:23
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PerniciousKnid posted:Are Virginia Democrats in a position to throw away unions so easily? Is union membership that low in VA? Even MO was able to repeal RTW. I'm surprised VA dems are so willing to tell unions "support us and we'll pass your bill, not like last time when Lee was mean to us or the time before when we thought we might have to pay workers more." Given that the unions have all come out in opposition to Carter your framing here is disingenuous. Pobrecito posted:For the people still trying to argue that the Democrats that voted against repealing right to work when Because it's a dick move that puts the entire rest of the legislative calendar at jeopardy, including other issues I might care more about.
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Feb 19, 2021 18:25
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Ballz posted:This got lost in all the Lee Carter discord, I am just curious what his quixotic gubernatorial run means for House seat. Is he still able to run for re-election? Does the GOP stand a chance of winning it back after losing it four years ago? Is there anyone aiming to primary Lee again? He is able to simultaneously run in the primary for Governor and his House seat. He can only run for one seat in the general, however. If he were to win both he would have to elect which position to run for (governor obviously). He tweeted about it a while back.
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Feb 19, 2021 18:26
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axeil posted:Given that the unions have all come out in opposition to Carter your framing here is disingenuous. seems like it only jeopardizes the calendar if the original plan was not to bring it up for a vote at all, otherwise it just rearranges the calendar maybe thats a good reason not to do it, but once the damage is done, throwing working people under the bus and voting with business interests (coincidentally I'm sure) doesn't seem like it helps the situation, seems like it makes everything worse (unless that outcome was what they wanted all along)
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Feb 19, 2021 18:30
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VitalSigns posted:seems like it only jeopardizes the calendar if the original plan was not to bring it up for a vote at all, otherwise it just rearranges the calendar It has been painfully explained to you how tight the legislative calendar is in VA and how byzantine the bill creation process is. It is not my fault that you are willfully refusing to understand it. There were 143 other bills up for consideration by the committee, and there is an incentive to deny Carter his stunt as it opens the floodgate for everyone else trying to jump the line for their bill. You have no evidence to back up your assertion as well.
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Feb 19, 2021 18:33
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PerniciousKnid posted:Are Virginia Democrats in a position to throw away unions so easily? Is union membership that low in VA? Even MO was able to repeal RTW. I'm surprised VA dems are so willing to tell unions "support us and we'll pass your bill, not like last time when Lee was mean to us or the time before when we thought we might have to pay workers more." the unions aren't backing lee carter anymore - including in the governor's race.
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Feb 19, 2021 18:34
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I can't believe the unions are sellout shitlibs opposed to RTW repeal smh
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Feb 19, 2021 18:34
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Aruan posted:the unions aren't backing lee carter anymore - including in the governor's race. The DSA is also not supporting Carter any more. Is the DSA now a shitlib organization? Or is it possible they might be right that the guy is more trouble than he's worth? When all your allies abandon you and say that you're impossible to work with, people should take notice. Someone in that seat with the same positions who wasn't terminally online and an rear end in a top hat would likely have succeeded (which is why all his allies have dropped their support and are looking for someone to primary him).
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Feb 19, 2021 18:37
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axeil posted:It has been painfully explained to you how tight the legislative calendar is in VA and how byzantine the bill creation process is. It is not my fault that you are willfully refusing to understand it. There were 143 other bills up for consideration by the committee, and there is an incentive to deny Carter his stunt as it opens the floodgate for everyone else trying to jump the line for their bill. I'm just pointing out alternative explanations that also fit the evidence, and questioning the narrative that the guy who fought for the bill for years is just too loud and stupid (and possibly deliberately killed it), and all I'm getting is "well take my word for it", not convincing. I'd find this assertion here that they were definitely going to get to RTW more believable if it hadn't been left to die in committee before after getting a think tank to say collective bargaining kills jobs and devastates god's creation. I also doubt that throwing millions of workers under the bus and siding with business interests is the best or even the only way to punish a delegate for inconsiderate parliamentarying VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 18:43 on Feb 19, 2021 |
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Feb 19, 2021 18:41
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axeil posted:It has been painfully explained to you how tight the legislative calendar is in VA and how byzantine the bill creation process is. It is not my fault that you are willfully refusing to understand it. There were 143 other bills up for consideration by the committee, and there is an incentive to deny Carter his stunt as it opens the floodgate for everyone else trying to jump the line for their bill. The evidence of the VA legislature quietly killing it last year on the grounds 'aww dang, giving workers protections might hurt jobs, never heard that one before' supports the assertion that the VA legislature does not, in fact, want to repeal Right to Work legislation. I find this evidence more compelling than your previous assertion, that Lee Carter is acting as he is due to being in the financial thrall of Big Podcasts.
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Feb 19, 2021 18:42
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Dett Rite posted:The evidence of the VA legislature quietly killing it last year on the grounds 'aww dang, giving workers protections might hurt jobs, never heard that one before' supports the assertion that the VA legislature does not, in fact, want to repeal Right to Work legislation. its evidence that 3 democrats on a committee are not in favor of it, while many democrats on other committees are. oh well better not try to convince those 3 and instead ether any chance of it passing entirely.
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Feb 19, 2021 18:44
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Aruan posted:its evidence that 3 democrats on a committee are not in favor of it, while many democrats on other committees are. oh well better not try to convince those 3 and instead ether any chance of it passing entirely. As I said before: Dett Rite posted:"The last several times this happened, the legislature killed the idea in committee out of fear of having to be on record voting it down. Perhaps if they have to be on record, they will be more reticent."
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Feb 19, 2021 18:46
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Badger of Basra posted:I can't believe the unions are sellout shitlibs opposed to RTW repeal smh The True Left is clearly asymptotic; you can approach it but you will never cross the threshold into it
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Feb 19, 2021 18:48
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axeil posted:The DSA is also not supporting Carter any more. Is the DSA now a shitlib organization? Or is it possible they might be right that the guy is more trouble than he's worth? reminder that the "proof" that he's too toxic for the DSA was screenshots of tweets from rando DSA people abusing him by mocking his divorce I asked for more context and none was provided, on the basis of what was posted it seems like either those people are the toxic ones, and if they represent the local DSA then the local org seems toxic. I'd appreciate more insight though because what was posted looks bad for their DSA Maybe that online abuse was justified somehow but nobody has said how
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Feb 19, 2021 18:48
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Dett Rite posted:As I said before: except 'last several times' is misleading, because prior to last year the republicans controlled the legislature and sank virtually every democratic bill. so what he really means is 'the first time it had a chance of passing it was unsuccessful.'
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Feb 19, 2021 18:48
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Aruan posted:except 'last several times' is misleading, because prior to last year the republicans controlled the legislature and sank virtually every democratic bill. so what he really means is 'the first time it had a chance of passing it was unsuccessful.' Due to the open opposition of the Democratic legislature, yes.
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Feb 19, 2021 18:52
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Dett Rite posted:Due to the open opposition of the Democratic legislature, yes. the open opposition... of a few democrats in one subcommittee? 'open opposition' is really overselling the case here. this would be substantially different if lee carter came out, with the co-sponsors, and said 'hey we introduced this last year and ive been trying to get this passed but these specific delegates on the appropriations committee are against it'... but instead he blindsided his co-sponsors and the caucus. thats the whole point we're all saying over, and over, and over. that while carter might be right in principle because the things he believes are good, he goes about achieving those things in the most ineffective way possible. the va legislature is not congress - people are not ideologically rigid in the same way, and the last two cycles have been example after example of 'centrist' democrats supporting extremely progressive policies (including in labor relations!), which suggests that this is a unique environment in which an individual delegate can whip support for a bill. RTW isn't some third rail that nobody can ever repeal. they just raised the minimum wage! Owlspiracy fucked around with this message at 18:57 on Feb 19, 2021 |
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Feb 19, 2021 18:54
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it seems like the legislature is at best indifferent-to-hostile if they used some think-tank bull about how workers' rights are bad as an excuse to kill it one year, and then the next year were apparently willing to kill it again over a procedural tiff (and this is the most optimistic reading of what happened)
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Feb 19, 2021 18:57
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VitalSigns posted:it seems like the legislature is at best indifferent-to-hostile if they used some think-tank bull about how workers' rights are bad as an excuse to kill it one year, and then the next year were apparently willing to kill it again over a procedural tiff (and this is the most optimistic reading of what happened) correct, which is why its a shame that instead of trying to convince them lee carter spent the last year calling them out on twitter - unlike other delegates who were able to whip votes for things like repealing the death penalty, legalizing marijuana or raising the minimum wage.
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Feb 19, 2021 18:58
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Aruan posted:the open opposition... of a few democrats in one subcommittee? 'open opposition' is really overselling the case here. this would be substantially different if lee carter came out, with the co-sponsors, and said 'hey we introduced this last year and ive been trying to get this passed but these specific delegates on the appropriations committee are against it'... but instead he blindsided his co-sponsors and the caucus. thats the whole point we're all saying over, and over, and over. that while carter might be right in principle because the things he believes are good, he goes about achieving those things in the most ineffective way possible. the va legislature is not congress - people are not ideologically rigid in the same way, and the last two cycles have been example after example of 'centrist' democrats supporting extremely progressive policies (including in labor relations!), which suggests that this is a unique environment in which an individual delegate can whip support for a bill. RTW isn't some third rail that nobody can ever repeal. they just raised the minimum wage! What was the vote on the proposition to repeal Right-To-Work legislation, from the legislature that you have told me does not openly support Right To Work. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 19, 2021 18:58
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Dett Rite posted:What was the vote on the proposition to repeal Right-To-Work legislation, from the legislature that you have told me does not openly support Right To Work. they haven't voted, actually. thats the whole point!
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Feb 19, 2021 19:00
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If you think about it, this thread is a microcosm of the VA legislature and clear proof that convincing people doesn't work
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Feb 19, 2021 19:02
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Aruan posted:correct, which is why its a shame that instead of trying to convince them lee carter spent the last year calling them out on twitter - unlike other delegates who were able to whip votes for things like repealing the death penalty, legalizing marijuana or raising the minimum wage. ok a second ago you said he had them all convinced and then he evilly "took the bill behind the woodshed and shot it" before they could all vote for it and it forced them to vote against it, now you're saying he never bothered to convince anyone to vote for it in the first place if that's true that he convinced zero people to vote for it then the parliamentary maneuver you're clutching your pearls about never mattered if it was going to be voted down anyway VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 19:06 on Feb 19, 2021 |
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Feb 19, 2021 19:04
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VitalSigns posted:ok a second ago you said he had them all convinced and then he evilly "took the bill behind the woodshed and shot it" before they could all vote for it and it forced them to vote against it, now you're saying he never bothered to convince anyone to vote for it in the first place are you not reading my posts? i said we never got a chance to see if lee carter was able to whip votes, because he pursued a procedural measure that guaranteed the bill would die without a vote. i do believe that carter could've whipped votes, though, considering we have many other examples of delegates doing so with even more progressive legislation or other labor rights bills. (or by lee carter, i mean a lee carter who didn't spend the last year talking poo poo about his caucus on twitter, but, still).
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Feb 19, 2021 19:07
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you said he spent all year on twitter instead of convincing people to vote for it, meaning he needed a year to convince them, meaning a parliamentary maneuver can't be the reason they voted against it since they needed a prior year of convincing apparently which didn't happen it can't be both, either the votes weren't there and it didn't matter what he did that day, or the votes were there and he choked at the last second, but the legislature can't exist in this superposition of being convinced to vote for it and also too angry to vote for it because he tweeted something or other E: also weird they don't have agency themselves, how does any of what you're saying justify siding with big business to gently caress unions? VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 19:13 on Feb 19, 2021 |
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Feb 19, 2021 19:11
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The parliamentary maneuver destroyed the capacity for anyone to perform normal legislative deliberation on the bill. I shouldn't have to tell you this but twitter isn't the state legislature.
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Feb 19, 2021 19:13
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Well going by the previous year "normal legislative deliberation" didn't happen and it died without a vote, so was it really going to be different this time? Idk seems like a Catch-22. You sit quietly and we kill your bill in committee, you force us to vote on it and we vote it down and spin our opposition as your fault.
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Feb 19, 2021 19:15
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axeil posted:Given that the unions have all come out in opposition to Carter your framing here is disingenuous. I'm not sure how meaningful it is to come out against a gamble that already didn't pay off. Discendo Vox posted:The parliamentary maneuver destroyed the capacity for anyone to perform normal legislative deliberation on the bill. PerniciousKnid fucked around with this message at 19:25 on Feb 19, 2021 |
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Feb 19, 2021 19:20
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PerniciousKnid posted:I'm not sure how meaningful it is to come out against a gamble that already didn't pay off. They haven't just come out against the gamble. They've come out against him, personally. They've said they will not be directing resources to him and are interested in finding someone to primary him.
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Feb 19, 2021 19:25
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Carter's co-sponsors on the bill were not "narcs" and the normal legislative deliberation process, that was how all the other groundbreaking legislation was recently passed, was the best way for the bill to become law. Compromising and trading votes is how democratic deliberation works. It's how all laws are normally passed. We don't know whether RTW repeal would have passed in the normal process this year because Carter, unilaterally, prevented it from happening. He did this in a way that only seems appealing if you can sustain belief in a global conspiracy against Carter and RTW repeal that somehow includes the democrats, the DSA, the unions, progressive activists, and the people who cosponsored the bill. The infinitely clearer explanation here is the one being provided multiple times by people who have had to educate you about every part of the legislative process, who have no secret incentive to lie. PerniciousKnid posted:Why even call yourself a Democrat if you need to be persuaded to support unions over ownership? As has been explained at length for roughly the last five pages, political identity and policy is more complicated than the single gatekeeping issue you are selecting to assign in this moment. This is even more the case at the state legislative level. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 19:27 on Feb 19, 2021 |
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Feb 19, 2021 19:25
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but if all those other people wanted to pass the bill why didn't they just vote for it anyway and then go say Lee sucks on twitter, or add a rider to the bill that says he personally sucks and then change the name to "The Lee Sucks RTW Repeal Act" that's what don't make sense in this explanation, the mechanism that forced them all to side with big business. That's where it all falls down for me because you see that all the time in politics: "gosh I was going to do the right thing but you didn't follow procedure so now I'm siding with the rich and powerful again and working people will pay the price, let this be a lesson" anyway so is RTW repeal going to pass next year without Lee involved? If not, then how possible was it really and how committed are those cosponsors really, why is it all on one guy to convince everyone to not be corporate shills.
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Feb 19, 2021 19:36
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VitalSigns posted:but if all those other people wanted to pass the bill why didn't they just vote for it anyway and then go say Lee sucks on twitter, or add a rider to the bill that says he personally sucks and then change the name to "The Lee Sucks RTW Repeal Act" the bill didn't come up for a vote.
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Feb 19, 2021 19:39
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so how does RTW repeal pass next year without Lee involved do his horrified blindsided cosponsors convince delegates The Right Way to vote on the side of working Virginians, or is it going to be abandoned for another 100 years
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Feb 19, 2021 19:42
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VitalSigns posted:but if all those other people wanted to pass the bill why didn't they just vote for it anyway and then go say Lee sucks on twitter, or add a rider to the bill that says he personally sucks and then change the name to "The Lee Sucks RTW Repeal Act" Because, again, Lee's maneuver hosed up the rest of the legislative schedule. You are contorting yourself into absurd positions to maintain your belief that Lee was good and somehow, everyone else involved, including the activists who supported Lee, and the unions, is a "corporate shill".
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Feb 19, 2021 19:43
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VitalSigns posted:so how does RTW repeal pass next year without Lee involved hopefully someone not named lee carter brings up the bill and uses the time between now and then to lobby whichever democrats on the appropriations subcommittee are against the bill to instead approve it (and this may have already happen, but i guess we won't know until next year).
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Feb 19, 2021 19:44
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Discendo Vox posted:Because, again, Lee's maneuver hosed up the rest of the legislative schedule. You are contorting yourself into absurd positions to maintain your belief that Lee was good and somehow, everyone else involved, including the activists who supported Lee, and the unions, is a "corporate shill". Maybe But if he's so stupid and bad, and his cosponsors are so smart and good, why did they let the dumb bad man write the bill in the first place? Why did he have to do all the work to convince people, or if they were doing the work, why did they let the guy who was apparently undermining them be a part of that. Were they committed too, or were they doing the Kamala Harris thing of signing on to a popular bill to look good while not really wanting it to pass. Are they going to cut Lee out and write their own bill and pass it next year? What happens now? Aruan posted:hopefully someone not named lee carter brings up the bill and uses the time between now and then to lobby whichever democrats on the appropriations subcommittee are against the bill to instead approve it (and this may have already happen, but i guess we won't know until next year). Why "hopefully someone", didn't it have cosponsors? Why aren't you confident that the cosponsors will bring it up once they get rid of the bad ginger man?
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Feb 19, 2021 19:46
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...are you seriously asking "why can't you predict what will happen with certain clarity"?
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Feb 19, 2021 19:49
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Also seems like there's an extremely obvious agenda in framing the one progressive firebrand as obviously unreasonable and stupid. His actions matter not, only his beliefs
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Feb 19, 2021 19:51
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Discendo Vox posted:Because, again, Lee's maneuver hosed up the rest of the legislative schedule. You are contorting yourself into absurd positions to maintain your belief that Lee was good and somehow, everyone else involved, including the activists who supported Lee, and the unions, is a "corporate shill". and the DSA, let's not forget them.
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