|
alg posted:yeah: https://www.tabletopgaming.co.uk/news/lord-of-the-rings-lcg-to-take-a-break-in-2020-no-second-edition/ LOL, 'taking a break' quoted from a dude that hasn't been with FFG in a bit over a year now. I would be amazed if there is anyone left in that group to remember that they were just taking a 'break'.
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2021 01:16
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 27, 2024 23:27 |
|
|
I feel like FFG's fall from grace was... particularly hasty, but maybe I'm looking at it with rose-tinted glasses.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2021 02:07
|
|
|
CitizenKeen posted:I feel like FFG's fall from grace was... particularly hasty, but maybe I'm looking at it with rose-tinted glasses. It seems like it happened pretty quickly to me
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2021 02:10
|
|
|
CitizenKeen posted:I feel like FFG's fall from grace was... particularly hasty, but maybe I'm looking at it with rose-tinted glasses. They were a good company that built themselves up slowly over the past decades to a top position in the American market. It infuriates me that they were bought and dismantled without any noticeable care given to their properties let alone any care given for the company and their employees. Ultimately the problem is late stage capitalism, but the specific vector is Asmodee. EverettLO fucked around with this message at 02:14 on Feb 19, 2021 |
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2021 02:12
|
|
|
Well, the merger stuff with Asmodee didn’t help. I used to do con volunteer work with them and had to stop when they only wanted people doing short demos explicitly towards sales on the vendors hall floor.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2021 02:13
|
|
|
A number of FFG’s problems were the license holders of the properties they made games for pulled the plug on their games for petty reasons. Games Workshop got angry they partnered with Star Wars and pulled the WH40K license, a number of card games like Android Netrunner and the Star Wars card game were shuttered because they were profitable but not profitable enough, et cetera. Asmodee moving the Star Wars ship fighting game to a different company was an rear end in a top hat move, though
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2021 02:26
|
|
|
Honestly I've never understood how any of the LCGs made enough money to justify the development costs. So much of the price you pay for designing something like a CCG is that if you want it to be good, you need to spend resources predicting and maintaining a metagame through constant releases. This is really hard even for something like MTG with a luxuriously large team (such that they have a spotty record at best and seem to have to constantly fight suits for enough staffing) but at least if you manage to do it you get to operate a mint-in-all-but-name printing the cards. With the LCGs you need to do all the work of design and development on a tight timeline, but instead of getting to leverage collectability to make ludicrous margins, you instead don't do that. The comparative advantage of saying "yeah but you buy a complete game" doesn't seem to frequently outweigh that. (Particularly when LCG core sets generally weren't complete, and on top of that once the game's been out a year or so, it's quite expensive to catch up.) Further you don't get draft as an "on ramp" where you can play on even footing with established players with minimal investment, since drafting for LCGs never really took off as a frequent thing to do (partly, in my understanding, because it makes it too expensive for the established players). I can certainly understand the theoretical virtues of the model, but from my perspective as someone involved in the retail and LGS events side of things, it always seemed like a model with tremendous difficulty gaining traction or making enough money to justify the ongoing work on the development side. Of course some individual customers (understandably) prefer it, but unfortunately tabletop gaming margins are not kind to things that require a lot of work without associated increased payoff, at least as things done by major companies. I was kind of shocked FFG stuck with them as long as they did, especially when they folded pretty regularly even without apparent licensing fuckery (RIP Warhammer Invasion, you were a cool game).
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2021 03:43
|
|
|
Tarnop posted:Can confirm. I paid way over the odds for my last Netrunner pack Yeah, I’m a little bummed I slept on Netrunner, and now going beyond the basic box set is an arm and a leg.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2021 03:59
|
|
|
Dumnbunny posted:Yeah, I’m a little bummed I slept on Netrunner, and now going beyond the basic box set is an arm and a leg. Isn’t one of the big problems with lcgs that they end up having big buy in costs after a couple expansions?
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2021 04:12
|
|
|
thetoughestbean posted:Isn’t one of the big problems with lcgs that they end up having big buy in costs after a couple expansions? On the face of it, sure, but for casual play you don't need every card to have a fun game and for competitive play you could buy 20 Netrunner expansions for the price of a tournament-ready standard deck for Magic (which then rotates out and loses value)
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2021 04:20
|
|
|
thetoughestbean posted:Isn’t one of the big problems with lcgs that they end up having big buy in costs after a couple expansions? Hell needing three copies of the core box killed L5R for my friends before the first expansion ever dropped,and we played the ccg for years.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2021 04:40
|
|
|
Paper LCGs are a flawed and unsustainable model (as are Paper CCGs not named M:tG at this point). Once you get past the first couple of sets, you are tying yourself to basically never rotating content no matter how flawed and how badly it warps your design space and on top of that you are screed in retail because almost no game store is going to devote the shelf space to all 30 different "expansion" packs for your game, especially the ones that don't move. But you still have to keep printing all that poo poo while trying to guesstimate demand for 5-year-old product. It just can't work. Card games work 100 better in the digital space now and it's not worth the cost and effort to try and make paper ones.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2021 04:44
|
|
|
theironjef posted:Oglaf has a refreshing lack of rape and rape jokes. It's got consensual orgies and loving on every other comic. What was the spider about?
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2021 04:53
|
|
|
PoontifexMacksimus posted:What was the spider about? It's been forever since I read it but it was like a spider with a vagina for a face that would show up and sorta facefuck unsuspecting sleeping dudes? I dunno.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2021 05:07
|
|
|
The dorky protagonist wakes up to a spider sucking his dick. The spider stares at him awkwardly and says "usually you're asleep when I do this"
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2021 05:18
|
|
|
i mean strictly speaking the very first arc in oglaf is about non-consensual bukkake, it's just extremely attenuated
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2021 05:20
|
|
|
The MC also get magically castrated in the first arc. Oglaf is a comic of contradictions.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2021 05:26
|
|
|
mellonbread posted:The dorky protagonist wakes up to a spider sucking his dick. I think it says, 'Usually I inject a venom that paralyzes you'. Frankly, the one with the living statues is way more hosed up to me.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2021 06:34
|
|
|
GreenMetalSun posted:I think it says, 'Usually I inject a venom that paralyzes you'. Oglaf got much better when it abandoned that protagonist guy. I also believe that is the only one. paradoxGentleman fucked around with this message at 08:26 on Feb 19, 2021 |
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2021 08:19
|
|
|
thetoughestbean posted:Isn’t one of the big problems with lcgs that they end up having big buy in costs after a couple expansions? For FFG LCGs especially, the business model basically boiled down to charging a $12 subscription per month while the game was running on top of $40-50 for the core box (x3 so you get the max copies of the 5 cards they only put one copy of in the box, if you were planning on playing it competitively). It was like buying an MMO and being told you needed to back-pay every month of subscription since it launched. Lemon-Lime fucked around with this message at 18:32 on Feb 19, 2021 |
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2021 09:51
|
|
|
For a consumer FFGs LCGs like Netrunner were much friendlier in terms of costs compared to MtG. For an invested player buying all of the expansions is much cheaper then being an invested MTG player, and likewise for a casual player you could pick up a couple of the big box expansions and have multiple viable decks you could build. The game was also starting to get into rotation, with the first two cycles rotating out and a second revised edition of the core set coming out just before the game died. That said there were definitely issues with shelf space for the game, but I don't think there is any sign the game was not financially doing well until the license wasn't renewed. They had spent a lot of money on artwork for the revised edition for what seemed pretty clearly intended to be an evergreen product that they barely were able to sell.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2021 14:11
|
|
|
Netrunner had an insanely dedicated fanbase, to the point where they kept the game going with new physical card releases and kept holding tournaments and stuff. It was my favorite game by a long shot and the LCG model was great for it - you really didn't need to buy every single pack to make viable decks, even at the competitive level. RIP 
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2021 17:16
|
|
|
I remember Inquest doing a big countdown on the best CCGs ever, and they argued that Netrunner outclasses Magic. If nothing else, they argued, you don't have to deal with a tangle of errata and whole sets being phased out of tournament play. (And that was in the 90s.)
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2021 17:23
|
|
|
Rockman Reserve posted:Netrunner had an insanely dedicated fanbase, to the point where they kept the game going with new physical card releases and kept holding tournaments and stuff. It was my favorite game by a long shot and the LCG model was great for it - you really didn't need to buy every single pack to make viable decks, even at the competitive level. Yeah, you only had to buy the 3-4 packs per cycle (out of 6) that had the utterly broken bullshit cards in them and the silver bullet counters FFG used as justification for the meta-dominating cards existing in the first place. 
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2021 18:34
|
|
|
While L5R and (earlier in the pandemic) Transformers dying sucked, I'm curious what card games will pick up the slack after the pandemic. Yeah, card games may work better online, but a bunch of people and groups play for the social aspect. I really like Legends of Runeterra, but I played L5R and even Universus much more pre-pandemic, because, even if they were probably less balanced, because the social aspect made it significantly more fun. I know Final Fantasy has a sizable community here, and some people were trying to build Flesh and Blood before the pandemic, but my home city was always weird for having a fair amount of non-Magic card game communities.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2021 18:54
|
|
|
Hiro Protagonist posted:While L5R and (earlier in the pandemic) Transformers dying sucked, I'm curious what card games will pick up the slack after the pandemic. Yeah, card games may work better online, but a bunch of people and groups play for the social aspect. I really like Legends of Runeterra, but I played L5R and even Universus much more pre-pandemic, because, even if they were probably less balanced, because the social aspect made it significantly more fun. Well, Digimon Card Game was just released in the West and immediately sold out (Bandai announced more printings of the 1.0 boxes soon), so I hope you like digital monsters
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2021 22:05
|
|
|
Intellectually I understand why, but emotionally I can never wrap my head around why there aren't any successful "open source" PnP competitive card games. I get that there are some, like Netrunner NISEI, but I just wonder why a community driven game hasn't taken off.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2021 23:15
|
|
|
CitizenKeen posted:Intellectually I understand why, but emotionally I can never wrap my head around why there aren't any successful "open source" PnP competitive card games. I get that there are some, like Netrunner NISEI, but I just wonder why a community driven game hasn't taken off. Probably because design work for something like this is really loving hard. Think of how few good high-crunch tactical combat RPGs there are, or how few wargames -- even big commercial ones with industry giants behind them -- actually hold up as strategy games when you put real competitive pressure on their systems. Now imagine that but instead of being one-and-done or a new edition coming out once or twice a decade, the devs have to be constantly testing and releasing new content, or people will get bored and go back to the old standbys.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2021 23:21
|
|
|
Tuxedo Catfish posted:Probably because design work for something like this is really loving hard. Think of how few good high-crunch tactical combat RPGs there are, or how few wargames -- even big commercial ones with industry giants behind them -- actually hold up as strategy games when you put real competitive pressure on their systems. A lot card games that aren’t Magic rely on being tied to a well-liked franchise, too, and I can’t think of a franchise outside of Touhou that would be cool lending it’s branding to a free open source game
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2021 23:24
|
|
|
CitizenKeen posted:Intellectually I understand why, but emotionally I can never wrap my head around why there aren't any successful "open source" PnP competitive card games. I get that there are some, like Netrunner NISEI, but I just wonder why a community driven game hasn't taken off. Vampire the Eternal Struggle has been community-driven for a while now, and recently got back into commercial releases and on-demand reprints! Rage also had a lot of community support but it wasn't that great a game initially, and I think the furry angle on the fan stuff might have been off-putting. There was a great guide for community artists on how to make a werewolf rather than a mean furry wolf, though.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2021 23:40
|
|
|
moths posted:There was a great guide for community artists on how to make a werewolf rather than a mean furry wolf, though. There’s something about this that’s really funny to me
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2021 23:41
|
|
|
moths posted:There was a great guide for community artists on how to make a werewolf rather than a mean furry wolf, though. I would unironically enjoy reading this if it’s still around.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2021 23:53
|
|
|
CitizenKeen posted:Intellectually I understand why, but emotionally I can never wrap my head around why there aren't any successful "open source" PnP competitive card games. I get that there are some, like Netrunner NISEI, but I just wonder why a community driven game hasn't taken off. Mostly because no "community" can agree on what makes a good game.
|
|
#
?
Feb 20, 2021 00:21
|
|
|
You also have a vastly different game if you don't at least have someone deciding which "open source" designs are acceptable and which aren't. You just have to glance at any custom Magic card board to see that being a big fan of the game and well-intentioned is nowhere near enough to ensure that you write good mechanical content. Then you add that a lot of the appeal is being able to freely play with strangers, and it gets even more complicated. It isn't impossible, but between the fact that it's a massive amount of ongoing work that needs to be done on a schedule, and the fact that there's a certain level of centralized authority required for some pretty serious quality control, it runs afoul of a lot of the biggest weaknesses of large-scale community projects.
|
|
#
?
Feb 20, 2021 00:37
|
|
|
I really think it's the brand thing more than any big design issues, plus marketing. Lots of popular games have lovely designs, at least for the first few sets, and do just fine initially because people want to collect their favorite franchise's game and might as well build a deck while they do it. Plus I do think there's more unrecognized good design talent out there than people give amateur designers credit for - I have friends who worked on successful TCGs (which all had very small design teams in the first place so it's not like they were good in spite of said friends), and a few of them have gone on to basically do what was suggested with making a new game. Even when mechanically similar to the successful game with solid changes it just doesn't work because how does anyone learn about your game or find a scene for it? Why play Royalty-Free Anime Dueling Game when you can just buy the one with characters you already like? It's not like an indie video game which can hail mary itself onto Steam and possibly hit it big just thanks to the sheer volume of eyes that might stumble across a streamer playing it or something, you really don't learn about new board games, ttrpgs, or card games unless you're very invested in those communities and actively looking for something to buy.
|
|
#
?
Feb 20, 2021 00:55
|
|
|
Countblanc posted:I really think it's the brand thing more than any big design issues, plus marketing. Lots of popular games have lovely designs, at least for the first few sets, and do just fine initially because people want to collect their favorite franchise's game and might as well build a deck while they do it. Plus I do think there's more unrecognized good design talent out there than people give amateur designers credit for - I have friends who worked on successful TCGs (which all had very small design teams in the first place so it's not like they were good in spite of said friends), and a few of them have gone on to basically do what was suggested with making a new game. Even when mechanically similar to the successful game with solid changes it just doesn't work because how does anyone learn about your game or find a scene for it? Why play Royalty-Free Anime Dueling Game when you can just buy the one with characters you already like? Sure, but what you're really saying here is that a license can carry a mediocre to bad game, and that's obviously true. But unless your open-source project is going to license something (or skirt C&Ds) then that's not really relevant. MTG definitely got where it is in part by being actually good (and by being willing to improve even when grognards don't like it). Heck, Netrunner basically did too, it got some hype from the license among dedicated gamers but we're not talking about a Star Wars situation or w/e, it was a revision of a very niche early game. In theory I think a community game that's close to that quality could take off on the merits; the license helps a lot but people clearly care about gameplay. The marketing is a much bigger issue, you're right, because there's nothing like an exposure pipeline for P&P standalone games. So both are relevant. But since no one's going to be able to get a reasonable license for their P&P community card game, the fact that the only avenue to succeed even if you can get exposure is through gameplay means the challenges of creating and maintaining that kind of gameplay are going to be relevant.
|
|
#
?
Feb 20, 2021 01:08
|
|
|
CitizenKeen posted:Intellectually I understand why, but emotionally I can never wrap my head around why there aren't any successful "open source" PnP competitive card games. I get that there are some, like Netrunner NISEI, but I just wonder why a community driven game hasn't taken off. Has anyone here played NISEI Netrunner? They have a starter set coming out soon, and so many people rave about Netrunner that I was thinking of trying it.
|
|
#
?
Feb 20, 2021 03:54
|
|
|
CitizenKeen posted:Intellectually I understand why, but emotionally I can never wrap my head around why there aren't any successful "open source" PnP competitive card games. I get that there are some, like Netrunner NISEI, but I just wonder why a community driven game hasn't taken off. The recognizable IP is a great initial draw to build your player base. After Decipher lost the license for Star Wars they tried to make their own IP with fiction written by Michael Stackpole. The Wars TCG, besides Decipher immediately started recapitulating all their design mistakes of Star Wars, had no draw. No recognizable characters be invested in.    It was just numbers on paper. No one is getting excited about these guys or buying a starter on a whim because they love the movies/TV/novels/comics. Give me a Boba Fett or an Ewok and I'm at least interested. They went the opposite direction with their last game, Fight Klub (there's supposed be an umlaut over the U but I don't know how to do that). They licensed some top properties so you could make all your favorite characters duke it out.     Unfortunately it used a unique marketing model that was basically an MLM so since you couldn't buy it in stores I've never found a physical copy. Good job Decipher, great success.
|
|
#
?
Feb 20, 2021 07:50
|
|
|
I'm imagining an Overwatch-style rabid fandom for each of these characters. "I'm a HUGE Earther stan, but Quay and Maverick are my OTP..."
|
|
#
?
Feb 20, 2021 07:58
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 27, 2024 23:27 |
|
|
Personally my theory about Asmodee's plans for FFG goes, "Produce everything left in the pipeline and shut down once that's done" I hate Asmodee. Assholes to shop from to begin with and then they pull this.
|
|
#
?
Feb 20, 2021 17:14
|
|
