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I mean, it's not inconceivable for it to have just been someone who played Everquest in the 90s, got rich off of tech/investments in that time, and decided they wanted something like what they played when they were a kid, regardless of the enormous risk involved. Dudes with money funding vanity projects is a well-traveled purview of the rich.
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Jan 21, 2021 23:14
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I hate to see them scam more people out of money but I don’t hate to see multimillionaires get scammed
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Jan 22, 2021 00:59
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LuckyCat posted:I hate to see them scam more people out of money but I don’t hate to see multimillionaires get scammed Yeah, it's probably a tax thing, he'll dump the losses on his company and use it to avoid tax charges or something in that avenue of moderate scumbaggery. Probably the same reason why Star Citizen got a bunch of outside cash too.
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Jan 22, 2021 02:38
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Vermain posted:I mean, it's not inconceivable for it to have just been someone who played Everquest in the 90s, got rich off of tech/investments in that time, and decided they wanted something like what they played when they were a kid, regardless of the enormous risk involved. Dudes with money funding vanity projects is a well-traveled purview of the rich. yeah its not inconceivable that a cto for "the leader in secure commerce technology for lodging, gaming, ..." is beneveolently giving away his money so he can play a bad reboot of a game from the 90s.
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Jan 29, 2021 22:47
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RagnarokZ posted:Yeah, it's probably a tax thing, he'll dump the losses on his company and use it to avoid tax charges or something in that avenue of moderate scumbaggery. dump his losses on his company? it isn't his. freedompay is almost definitely the one who gave the money for some kind of payment processing deal and to prove their value so they can be the gold standard of payment processing for a new kickstarter platform dedicated to mmos. i doubt chris is the one who gave the money
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Jan 29, 2021 22:48
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Vermain posted:I mean, it's not inconceivable for it to have just been someone who played Everquest in the 90s, got rich off of tech/investments in that time, and decided they wanted something like what they played when they were a kid, regardless of the enormous risk involved. Dudes with money funding vanity projects is a well-traveled purview of the rich. This is almost certainly it. He grabbed some of his rich buddies and said “it’ll be just like when we stayed up playing EQ and getting high”, and they each dropped a quarter or something.
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Jan 30, 2021 00:18
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhVdFHZ1D_M It's all about crafting. TLDR: It's sort of like TES but there's no UI right now. Kind of unimpressive (I'm not really sure what to expect though, all basic crafting systems are essentially this) hobocrunch fucked around with this message at 07:09 on Feb 5, 2021 |
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Feb 5, 2021 07:00
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Time for a proper thread title. Pantheon: hobocrunch posted:Kind of unimpressive
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Feb 5, 2021 17:30
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Scamtheon: Lies of the Fallen (bc Brad is dead and he was a notorious liar)
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Feb 6, 2021 00:00
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Actually sat down and watched the video and yeah.. that looks like a crafting system I guess. I appreciate that we're 7 years into this game's development and just got slammed with heavy hitters on the crafting system like "well we don't want it to be too hard, but we don't want it to be too easy either" and "we want you to rely on other people, but not have to rely on other people too much".
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Feb 6, 2021 01:29
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Sachant posted:Actually sat down and watched the video and yeah.. that looks like a crafting system I guess. I agree 7 years in is dumb that we're at this point but people have to realise this game wasn't even in development really until just before Brad died. I mean you can really see the acceleration there was as soon as Kyle joined the team. I don't want to suck one dudes dick super hard but he's actually saving Pantheon right now (And when I say "Saving" I'm just saying they'll get over the finish line, nothing more). And a bit of credit to Joppa as well who probably had his hands tied whilst Brad was around umming and aahing. Similar things can be said for AoC as well- In reality kickstarter MMO's are really just proof of concept until they get ACTUAL funding, which is never ever what their kickstarter asked for, that is literally just for a prototype to secure funding where ever it comes from. At the very least Nephelle handled him self pretty well, knew what he was talking about and had a decent enough vision- Considering he was only hired late last year and is showing off the crafting system already, at the very least there's a driving force there. What he talked about there is a little bit of depth there, if you think about 4 iron igots to a Sword, and each ingot can be enchanted with some dust (at this stage), that gives us 4 possible bonuses we can add to a 1h sword. That could mean that we're adding things like "Frenzy on hit" or "Cold damage and a Slow" or "Fear on hit" etc (and then the combination of them). I'm not saying it's super in depth but it's PROBABLY okay enough for an MMO standard. Obviously won't compare with something like POE. I'm not trying to defend the fuckups, I just lie most of the blame on people like Machail and Brad (I think Machail absolutely has depression and shouldn't be a director of anything). With Brad gone it's really hard to blame the people left behind mostly. Also: January Dev Roundtable with CEO Chris Rowan - 2021 Outlook for Pantheon and Visionary Realms hobocrunch fucked around with this message at 03:06 on Feb 6, 2021 |
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Feb 6, 2021 01:53
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Anyone else remember back when Brad conned that Christian game development team into working on the game for free and then fired them all when he secured funding? This game has gone through so many teams and rewrites it must be an absolute nightmare to work on. Everything being hard coded is probably just the tip of the iceberg.
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Feb 6, 2021 03:49
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I'm too lazy to check what was the incredibly stupid way they were building the game for most of the development time? It was something even a non-programmer like me knew you weren't supposed to do like hard coding everything into the game.
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Feb 6, 2021 05:46
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hobocrunch posted:I agree 7 years in is dumb that we're at this point but people have to realise this game wasn't even in development really until just before Brad died. I mean you can really see the acceleration there was as soon as Kyle joined the team. I don't want to suck one dudes dick super hard but he's actually saving Pantheon right now (And when I say "Saving" I'm just saying they'll get over the finish line, nothing more). And a bit of credit to Joppa as well who probably had his hands tied whilst Brad was around umming and aahing. Similar things can be said for AoC as well- In reality kickstarter MMO's are really just proof of concept until they get ACTUAL funding, which is never ever what their kickstarter asked for, that is literally just for a prototype to secure funding where ever it comes from. That's great and all but imagine having thrown money at this back in 2014 thinking it was going to be an EverQuest-like game (from Brad McQuaid, creator of EverQuest) and now it's been rebooted however many times and is just starting development as some watery wishy-washy WoW/ESO looking thing. Very glad I haven't put a dime down on this mess. I periodically see comments elsewhere of "Oh wow Pantheon right! I've been playing EQ getting myself ready for it!" and my reaction is just, oh honey...
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Feb 6, 2021 06:49
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Sachant posted:That's great and all but imagine having thrown money at this back in 2014 thinking it was going to be an EverQuest-like game (from Brad McQuaid, creator of EverQuest) and now it's been rebooted however many times and is just starting development as some watery wishy-washy WoW/ESO looking thing. Very glad I haven't put a dime down on this mess. I periodically see comments elsewhere of "Oh wow Pantheon right! I've been playing EQ getting myself ready for it!" and my reaction is just, oh honey... Yeah I just feel like a lot of hate gets directed towards VR (I mean half the office has changed at this point, and the other half have moved roles) when in reality it should be almost entirely directed at Brad. Thankfully I'm not invested with any coin either but I would say I'd like to see this succeed just because in general I'd say I'm an MMO fan and it feels bad watching all these 50mil+ games get made just for them to slam the game into it's grave with it's backswing of cash shops, mtx, loot bags and no flavor / lore / immersion / world etc etc Groovelord Neato posted:I'm too lazy to check what was the incredibly stupid way they were building the game for most of the development time? It was something even a non-programmer like me knew you weren't supposed to do like hard coding everything into the game. They didn't make any systems essentially. Like systems to create skills, or systems to create quests and so on. That's pretty important considering the whole gimmick to VR was that they'd be fluid and maybe one day Roenick is working on the website and the next he's designing a quest. hobocrunch fucked around with this message at 01:33 on Feb 7, 2021 |
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Feb 7, 2021 00:31
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hobocrunch posted:Thankfully I'm not invested with any coin either but I would say I'd like to see this succeed just because in general I'd say I'm an MMO fan and it feels bad watching all these 50mil+ games get made just for them to slam the game into it's grave with it's backswing of cash shops, mtx, loot bags and no flavor / lore / immersion / world etc etc I guess, but I got excited about Pantheon because it was Brad, checkered past and all, and I wanted something to finally get me out of Project 1999. But it's so, so not that anymore (if it ever was). It just looks like a bog standard western MMO at this point, and there's already lots of those. At this point I don't know what this is going to offer over ESO.
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Feb 7, 2021 03:35
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Maybe a new Everquest game will be out before this.
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Feb 7, 2021 04:09
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Sachant posted:I guess, but I got excited about Pantheon because it was Brad, checkered past and all, and I wanted something to finally get me out of Project 1999. But it's so, so not that anymore (if it ever was). It just looks like a bog standard western MMO at this point, and there's already lots of those. At this point I don't know what this is going to offer over ESO. For me there's 3 things that will make this game feel different enough (If they manage to implement them, some of which we haven't seen yet.) 1. OOC abilities such as the Druid's Vinewoven Bridge (The counter argument to this is that we literally haven't seen enough of these in action to really argue it as a trait of Pantheon yet). 2. The world being un-soloable and dangerous -Monsters basically all being elites, death penalty being severe and Acclimation making the requirement of preparation with limited bag space. 3. Perception / Quest / Faction / NPC design I don't know about the rest of you but I think TES:O's best aspect is the questing, the quests seem very hand crafted like someone tried to actually make a mini-story line. I like that items are laying around on the ground for you to find that can potentially skip parts of the story if you find them. Although this isn't anything brand new, I don't think it's a bad thing that Pantheon is taking this route. The comparison to TES might initially bring distaste as I think it did to even me but the more I think about the comparisons the more I realise that they're copying the good things whilst still keeping what people expect from an EQ successor. It's pretty underrated (for good reason because it's really not finished and hasn't been shown off properly), but how NPC's act to you based on your actions might end up being really cool. Who knows. At the end of the day we're going to get things that have been done before in other games, in this game, but that's almost the entire point of it. Ideally the combination of things they pick is unique and provides a fun enough experience. The way I see this game right now might be a bit optimistic because that's just who I am, but I really feel like they've got all the systems in place for an "okay" game- and I say okay because on paper everything looks good enough but it's really going to come down to implementation and just how it all feels to play it. I think the game design of the game is actually decent enough at this point. The part I'm most worried about is that they literally just need to make so much art assets that without them hiring like 5-10 3D artists to poo poo this out of the next 2 years the game is still going to be in development hell. They said they got money but I don't see art hires. Maybe they got the HR department to gear up for Art hires, I don't know but times a ticking.
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Feb 7, 2021 05:38
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I really don’t know how one can defend this game. Brad or not, I feel like the last several years were complete lies with them saying how much content was complete and being polished, only to find out not even a single zone had even been close to finished.
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Feb 7, 2021 21:01
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I mean best case scenario this game, which just started development apparently, will come out in 5-7 years. Don’t we think after 12-14 years of being in development that the tech will be obsolete? That gaming interest will have moved on? Who, who was excited about Pantheon when it was first announced, will still be actively excited for the games release after a decade and a half?
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Feb 7, 2021 21:08
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One of two things will happen if Pantheon releases: It'll either be completely rebalanced to be solo friends and go free to play, or it will just shut down because no one is paying $15 a month for a classic style MMORPG.
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Feb 7, 2021 23:11
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hobocrunch posted:2. The world being un-soloable and dangerous -Monsters basically all being elites, death penalty being severe and Acclimation making the requirement of preparation with limited bag space. This is already gone. The current team doesn't have the guts to dare inconvenience solo players. Look at how they just presented crafting, saying (obviously paraphrased) "well it would be nice if you involved other players but you don't have to if you don't want". This is how they're going to approach PvE content as well. They've been doing nothing but backpedaling from every remotely controversial design position the game originally put forward, and having to rely on others to play the game is at the top of that list. Sachant fucked around with this message at 23:52 on Feb 7, 2021 |
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Feb 7, 2021 23:41
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Even in eq1 there was soloable content up to the level cap though
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Feb 8, 2021 02:49
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please knock Mom! posted:Even in eq1 there was soloable content up to the level cap though It was way slower than grouping unless you were particular classes.
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Feb 8, 2021 03:37
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Groovelord Neato posted:It was way slower than grouping unless you were particular classes. Look dude Paladins suck rear end even in groups. Play a real class.
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Feb 8, 2021 03:46
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Even the good classes couldn't solo apart from a couple.
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Feb 8, 2021 03:50
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Groovelord Neato posted:Even the good classes couldn't solo apart from a couple. Shaman, necro, enchanter, druid, wizard, shadowknight, monk could all solo to 60, monk needed some buffs or being an iksar. The optimum was a duo. Maybe a trio. Any more and you’re just losing xp. That was classic eq
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Feb 8, 2021 03:52
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50 was the max 
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Feb 8, 2021 03:56
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Groovelord Neato posted:50 was the max Then soloing was even easier for the aforementioned classes except for human monks, which suck. Soloing has been in eq1 from the start and due to the way xp worked (little to no bonus xp for grouping) its good xp unless your class sucks. E: forgot about mage, they solo to max level too Orange DeviI fucked around with this message at 04:06 on Feb 8, 2021 |
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Feb 8, 2021 03:58
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Sachant posted:This is already gone. The current team doesn't have the guts to dare inconvenience solo players. Look at how they just presented crafting, saying (obviously paraphrased) "well it would be nice if you involved other players but you don't have to if you don't want". This is how they're going to approach PvE content as well. They've been doing nothing but backpedaling from every remotely controversial design position the game originally put forward, and having to rely on others to play the game is at the top of that list. I think you're hating a little bit too hard. If you watch PantheonPlus' gameplay footage you'll see it's really not that soloable at all. Anyone soloing is going to have a hard time- Everything is basically a WoW elite with double the health. You die in 2-3 hits to open world mobs. As for crafting they specifically stated in the video that you'd be able to make things that you'd be expected to make as a crafter, like a Blacksmith making a sword, but the best items will come from inter-dependency. I don't know about backpeddling honestly. That's a little far fetched to me.
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Feb 8, 2021 05:52
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It isn't even that much backpedaling, they've always hedged their bets with soloability whenever asked. Again, like crafting, their answer is always essentially "you can do whatever you want, please just play our game" as far as reliance on other players. Classic EQ has some soloing for some classes for sure, but I don't expect Pantheon to be anywhere near as solo-unfriendly as even EQ is.
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Feb 8, 2021 05:58
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Have you played classic eq
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Feb 8, 2021 16:55
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Everquest's steep difficulty worked because it was the first 3D mmorpg, and sold itself on its atmosphere and immersion. Pantheon won't have that advantage.
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Feb 8, 2021 16:57
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By solo content do you mean sitting at a spectre spawn killing it once and waiting for it to respawn?
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Feb 8, 2021 17:10
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EQ isn’t a difficult game, it’s just tedious and you can’t do everything yourself. Designing your MMO so that players have nothing to do or gain when they’re not in a party is a brainless move. Enforce slower, more cautious gameplay, maybe lock out select zones. But solo players spelunking in the same areas as groups adventure in is exactly what made EQ’s non instanced dungeons so great.
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Feb 8, 2021 17:10
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Maybe one day I'll get an actual classic EQ successor. Until then, I'll have to pass the time with P99 and by bellyaching about Pantheon.
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Feb 8, 2021 22:38
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EQ is kind of a strange game because it embraces fundamental imbalance between classes. At least in classic you had Enchanters and arguably Bards for example being good in all situations (especially now that everyone intimately understands the mechanics of charm etc 20yr later), although with a lot of stuff to do in terms of pure actions per minute Then youve got classes like Warrior that are clutch in raids but basically just autoattackers with horrible aggro problems (due to lack of snap aggro) in groups. In a similar vein Cleric was a pretty chill "smoke weed and socialize" class that were awful solo in most situations. Necro on the other hand being the chill smoke weed and solo grind class There were choices that made every class valuable to the right kind of player, instead of every class having what seems like approximately the same APM and solo ability in today's games.
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Feb 9, 2021 05:26
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cmdrk posted:EQ is kind of a strange game because it embraces fundamental imbalance between classes. To be fair, compared to any modern MMO the original EQ was downright glacial in terms of APM economy. Even on the classes that were extremely fidgety (bard, shaman, chanter, paladin) that were at the time considered arthritis inducing still basically doesn't compare to something like FFXIV, which itself is significantly slowed down compared to WoW. But I feel like the classes in EQ also specialize in their particular niches way harder than anything that came after. Yeah clerics got DDs and Stuns and some AoE and undead nukes, but the mana efficiency wasn't there like it was for a Wizard/Mage/Druid and that 300 mana that went into a single nuke takes a minute to regenerate, so that's both time and mana that could of been spent keeping your team alive with your incredibly mana efficient healing. Compare that to something like WoW where even the hard healing classes could respec into damage or tanking respective to their classes - or XIV where even if you are playing a healing class, it's still generally expected that you help throw out damage when you aren't immediately needing to keep someone alive at that very second because MP constraints really aren't that big of a deal. Hard support classes like EQ Shaman/Bards/Chanters have kind of fallen by the wayside in post-WoW world too. Since MP and HP regen in and out of combat really isn't a thing anymore and crowd control / debuffs have been completely de-emphasized what you're stuck with is just being the guy what has the buffs and that's kind of boring. I remember back in the early days of Vanilla WoW where they still tried to do hard support Paladins and Shamans and it kind of sucked because the buffs weren't event close to being as impactful as the old EQ era bards, but they were still incredibly fiddly and micromanagement heavy, and when you weren't fiddling with the blessings and totems you were expecting in groups/raids to heal, offensive buff support like the EQ bard basically wasn't a thing in Vanilla raids. Killing off the hard buffing micromanagement aspect of those classes and adding that functionality to other classes in Black Crusade was kind of necessary - and I say that as someone who primarily played a Shaman in Vanilla / TBC era WoW specifically because I wanted to be a hard support analogue like the EQ Bard but the way WoW was designed and balanced they were pretty much completely neutered compared to how Bards were in EQ1 and even EQ2.
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Feb 25, 2021 20:11
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^ These were all bad changes.
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Feb 25, 2021 21:00
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Sachant posted:^ These were all bad changes. Probably. But they also made the games a lot more accessible to people who didn't have the time and the patience to sit in one spot in a dungeon to bash goblins while they shitpost in /party and /guild. In order to have that strong social aspect you have to have gameplay and mechanics designed around being social. If you have to be in a group to make significant progress, that forces you to be pretty social. If it takes a long time to get things accomplished combined with If you have a hard support class that excels in party dynamics, that forces you to be social. The problem being that the sorts of mechanics and design you do for something you want to have a strong social aspect fundamentally raises the bar for entry for more casual players who may not have the time to commit to it. Ultimately I think there is a balance point to be made in that is welcoming to more casual players while still having a very group-oriented playstyle, but the developers would really have to thread the needle in a way that I don't think Pantheon can accomplish.
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Feb 25, 2021 23:17
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